French Team Doping Back In The 90s

[euroking]

Wonder Was It Any "Clean" French Teams Back In The 90s Considering How Things Was Back Then?

 

[blackcat]

"Z"

 

[blackcat]

or La Vie Claire
Tapie
Look
healthfood

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re:

"Z"

Z is GAN, and we know quite a few dopers on there
Heck, we don't even have to go to the GAN years. Duclos-Lassale suddenly winning Roubaix twice at age 38 just when EPO appeared?

 

[Gregga]

IMO there was no real clean french team in the late 80s-early 90s, pre EPO-era, because most of them were using massive doses of corticosteroids. Only La Vie Claire could be slightly different because Koechli was clearly anti-doping, but I guess some of his riders like Hinault didn't give a f... to his opinion.

Their "cleaner" image comes from the delay they had before switching to EPO, 93-94 for the precursors, 95 for the followers... fact is, in 96-97, all the french team were using EPO. This doesn't mean "all the riders", but those who didn't switch to EPO were nowhere.

If you compare to Italians or Spanish teams who started EPO in 1989 (Caja Rural, Chateau d'Ax), the french were not cleaner, with their corticos and amphetamines (Fignon twice positive, Lino...), they just didn't got the new drug of choice. I guess the Spanish and Italians were early users of EPO because their top doctors/riders were using transfusions in the 80s, which IMO was totally unknown in France, the french doctors weren't "blood doctors" and relied on the good old cocktail cortisone/testosterone/amphetamines

 

[del1962]

Is this just cycling or all sports?

 

[fmk_RoI]

If a clean team is a team without any dopers - and not just a team with an organised doping programme - then it's unlikely there were any clean teams, let alone French ones. Look, for instance, at the way Willy Voest described Jean de Gribaldi, who seemed to have feet in both camps, clean and doping. The closest you get to anyone pointing to a team and saying 'clean' is Paul Köchli's Helvetia squads (not La Vie Claire, where he wasn't fully in control and had to cope with the likes of Kim Andersen and his multiple positives).

 

[pmcg76]

Like others have said, doping was common place at Fench teams but as a nation were probably the last to get on the EPO train. The 90s saw a downward spiral in French cycling re teams with Fagor stopping in 89, Toshiba at the end of 91 and RMO pulled the plug in 92. A big chunk of RMO moved to Festina giving them a French feel but according to Willy Voet it wasn't until just before the Tour in 93 that they tried EPO and it was haphazard at first. It was at the start of 94 that they put together the team programme of doping which excluded the New-pros re Bassons/Lefevre/Halgand.

Castorama pulled the plug in 95 and according to the late Philip Gaumont who was at the team, they were still only starting to move with the times in 95 and the same at GAN when he was there in 96. Castorama had a major rep regards Corticosteroids/Hormones and both Gaumont and Laurent Desbiens were both busted in 96 whilst at Gan. Armand De Las Cuevas who was a Ferrari disciple, was team leader in 94/95 but apparently did his own thing with Ferrari. Ironically, Castorama also had Mr Clean, Giles Delion on their books at the same time and he managed to win GP Rennes in 94. Gaumont also won the Tour de Poitou Charentes in 94 which he has said was his last ever clean win.

Strangely enough, the same race was won the following year by a rider who also said he won clean, Nicolas Aubier. This rider turned pro in 93 with GAN and says there was no pressure to dope but it was still happening, he stayed clean the first year, tried a bit the second year but said there was no mention of EPO until he joined Casino in 96 where he was put under pressure to try EPO. He quit the sport. According to Aubier, he never saw Chris Boardman dope whilst at GAN which is mainly where Boardman's 'clean' rep comes from. Two other GAN riders didn't use EPO according to Gaumont, Yvon Ledanois who couldn't handle it and Eddy Seigneur by choice.

Greg LeMond also of GAN team mentioned about they had an idea of what was happening but it wasn't until a team-mate moved to Italy that they got the full picture. This could have been Philipe Casado who moved to AKI in 94 or Eric Boyer who moved to Polti in 95. Both riders quit the sport after one season in Italy, and Casado sadly died during a friendly rugby match. Pascal Lance, another GAN rider was also named as a clean rider whose career had also suffered for refusing to dope according to Giles Delion.

Based on all these accounts, it would seem that the French were very much behind the times. Even at Festina, Willy Voet says it was the influx from PDM that really opened their eyes to proper doping. GAN seem to have been very slow to change and at a guess, by the time they had caught up with the rest, the 50% rule was introduced followed by the Festina affair in 98. When the new French teams arrived in 97, Ldjeux and Cofidis along with the revamped Casino hired a load of overseas riders for success. Rominger, Armstrong, Fondriest, Rebellin, Gianetti, Hamburger, Jaermann, Massi etc.

The introduction of EPO is always an interesting topic but I strongly believe it started with a few individuals in 89/90 before then spreading quickly in Italy 91-93 with other countries following track with the French the slowest to react. By 1994 it was widespread and by 96, it was almost everyone.

 

[roundabout]

Rinero finishing 4th in the Tour says it all. Ok, probably would have been 5th had the Spanish teams continued, but don't think he finished in the top-40 in any other GT that he has done.

 

[Lyon]

You only have to look at when the french teams started going after italian riders.

 

[staubsauger]

Rinero finishing 4th in the Tour says it all. Ok, probably would have been 5th had the Spanish teams continued, but don't think he finished in the top-40 in any other GT that he has done.

Julich as well until he had his second spring at CSC. Even Michael Boogerd has got another TdF top 10.

 

[roundabout]

Julich at least had a decent Vuelta back in his Motorola days. Rinero on the other hand was a typical random Cofidis rider having his moment of glory like Gwiazdowski and Lopeboselli after.

Edit: and I am well aware that Lopeboselli actually won nothing, but dueling with Bartoli for the win in the GdL was pretty surreal.

 

["Jeff"]

Re: Re:

"Z"

Z is GAN, and we know quite a few dopers on there
Heck, we don't even have to go to the GAN years. Duclos-Lassale suddenly winning Roubaix twice at age 38 just when EPO appeared?

If there's one big race you could win clean than its Paris-Roubaix.

and there's a difference between 1990-1992 and 1993-1999.

Greg LeMond also of GAN team mentioned about they had an idea of what was happening but it wasn't until a team-mate moved to Italy that they got the full picture. This could have been Philipe Casado who moved to AKI in 94 or Eric Boyer who moved to Polti in 95. Both riders quit the sport after one season in Italy, and Casado sadly died during a friendly rugby match. Pascal Lance, another GAN rider was also named as a clean rider whose career had also suffered for refusing to dope according to Giles Delion.

No surprise there about P. Lance. Another rider who should not have had any difficulties to complete a GT but finished outside the time limit twice.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

"Z"

Z is GAN, and we know quite a few dopers on there
Heck, we don't even have to go to the GAN years. Duclos-Lassale suddenly winning Roubaix twice at age 38 just when EPO appeared?

i was not being serious.

for some reason, I always thought la Vie Clare or la Vie Claire, Tapie's healthfood team with Lemond was also "Z",. But thanks for correcting me. Anyway, I still stand by my position, wrt teams, tous dope. tous

 

[wendybnt]

Re: Re:

"Z"

Z is GAN, and we know quite a few dopers on there
Heck, we don't even have to go to the GAN years. Duclos-Lassale suddenly winning Roubaix twice at age 38 just when EPO appeared?

i was not being serious.

for some reason, I always thought la Vie Clare or la Vie Claire, Tapie's healthfood team with Lemond was also "Z",. But thanks for correcting me. Anyway, I still stand by my position, wrt teams, tous dope. tous

Lemond rode for La Vie Claire, winning the TdF in '86. He also won with Z in 1990 (Z-Tomasso). Maybe that is the confusion.

 

[Echoes]

Belgian teams jumped on the EPO bandwagon long after the French. Even in the Netherlands, PDM aside or because of the intralipid trauma, you had a tolerance zero against EPO. Van Hooydonck said that many times about his former manager Jan Raas (how surprising it might be, Raas was very strict against doping until the UCI blood test of 1997, he and Godefroot were probably the ones who called the UCI for help).
Peter Post abruptly stopped his career as a manager, sanctioning the current blend of Dutch riders as a "potato generation." Eddy Bouwmans had as much talent as Virenque.

Rabobank only started to take EPO by May 1996 (Van Hooydonck retired on April 29 1996) as is told by Thijs Zonneveld. Post riders probably never took EPO in their majority (except Planckaert E. and a few isolated cases). For Lotto it was not until J-L Vandenbroucke became manager (and his doping his riders might be the reason for his being fired by Lotto).

Tulip, Histor-Sigma, Tonton-Tapis, that was relatively clean.

So many Belgian and Dutch talents were screwed by the advent of EPO. Edwig Van Hooydonck, Frans Maassen, Jim Van de Laer, Sammie Moreels, Peter De Clercq, Eddy Bouwmans, ...

Those who wished to perform like Museeuw or Bruyneel went to Italy or Spain

No, the French don't have a monopoly on morality!

 

[roundabout]

Bouwmans was screwed by the advent of EPO only in the sense that it allegedly didn't work for him. He was moral enough to try it after all.

 

["Jeff"]

Bouwmans was screwed by the advent of EPO only in the sense that it allegedly didn't work for him. He was moral enough to try it after all.

That's your opinion, dont share it as a fact.

Eddy Bouwmans at least had the guts to say he once used it in a very informal interview. He had absolutely nothing to win. This shouldnt be used against him.

Belgian teams jumped on the EPO bandwagon long after the French. Even in the Netherlands, PDM aside or because of the intralipid trauma, you had a tolerance zero against EPO. Van Hooydonck said that many times about his former manager Jan Raas (how surprising it might be, Raas was very strict against doping until the UCI blood test of 1997, he and Godefroot were probably the ones who called the UCI for help).
Peter Post abruptly stopped his career as a manager, sanctioning the current blend of Dutch riders as a "potato generation." Eddy Bouwmans had as much talent as Virenque.

Rabobank only started to take EPO by May 1996 (Van Hooydonck retired on April 29 1996) as is told by Thijs Zonneveld. Post riders probably never took EPO in their majority (except Planckaert E. and a few isolated cases). For Lotto it was not until J-L Vandenbroucke became manager (and his doping his riders might be the reason for his being fired by Lotto).

Tulip, Histor-Sigma, Tonton-Tapis, that was relatively clean.

So many Belgian and Dutch talents were screwed by the advent of EPO. Edwig Van Hooydonck, Frans Maassen, Jim Van de Laer, Sammie Moreels, Peter De Clercq, Eddy Bouwmans, ...

Those who wished to perform like Museeuw or Bruyneel went to Italy or Spain

No, the French don't have a monopoly on morality!

I wouldnt go that far. Never been a fan of him as person, but Virenque was quite a battler. I feel he would be very good without dope as well. As amateur Virenque was much better than Bouwmans.

Good post anyway. Well said.

 

[staubsauger]

Ain't Dutch athletes are also the true pioneers of EPO? Mathieu Hermans admitted he used EPO in the 1989 Vuelta a España and given his palmares is likely to have done so in 1988 already! Okay, he rode with Caja Rujal back then.

But: There were this female speed skater at the Olympics Kwibus (?) mentioned a while ago in the clinic. There was PDM. There were the sudden deaths of many Dutch amateur cyclist.

We will never find out as well from my pov, whether Erik Breukink was a very early benefiter of EPO usage or his career has gotten destroyed once the Italians and Spaniards upped the game with it. The second is widely believed. But one can't be 100% convinced given he rode for PDM, never managed to get back his shape at rocket fueled Once and his major role in the Rabobank doping program (protecting Rasmussen to some degree). Normally this ain't the actions of a man that got his career shredded by EPO abuse. We won't find out. Either he was very lucky (not to die in about '88 when noone had a clue about EPO and it's dosage) or very unlucky (not to respond as well as Indurain, Cappuccino and co. to EPO).

 

["Jeff"]

Re:

Ain't Dutch athletes are also the true pioneers of EPO? Mathieu Hermans admitted he used EPO in the 1989 Vuelta a España and given his palmares is likely to have done so in 1988 already! Okay, he rode with Caja Rujal back then.

But: There were this female speed skater at the Olympics Kwibus (?) mentioned a while ago in the clinic. There was PDM. There were the sudden deaths of many Dutch amateur cyclist.

We will never find out as well from my pov, whether Erik Breukink was a very early benefiter of EPO usage or his career has gotten destroyed once the Italians and Spaniards upped the game with it. The second is widely believed. But one can't be 100% convinced given he rode for PDM, never managed to get back his shape at rocket fueled Once and his major role in the Rabobank doping program (protecting Rasmussen to some degree). Normally this ain't the actions of a man that got his career shredded by EPO abuse. We won't find out. Either he was very lucky (not to die in about '88 when noone had a clue about EPO and it's dosage) or very unlucky (not to respond as well as Indurain, Cappuccino and co. to EPO).

Yvonne van Gennip yes. I always thought she did it with the help of EPO. She beat all the East-Germans at Calgary but who cares about speedskating anyway, its folklore.

Erik Breukink is indeed a special case, for the reasons you have already mentioned. Also if he was doped, than I fail to understand why he couldnt beat a supposed clean LeMond in 1990. Erik Breukink was no water carrier.

This is a very good/interesting interview from Breukink about EPO from june 2015. For what its worth. Its in Dutch but you can use a translator.

http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1063/Tour-de...Breukink-Epo-maakte-zo-n-groot-verschil.dhtml

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

[quote=""Jeff"":3s8c6d04]if he was doped, than I fail to understand why he couldnt beat a supposed clean LeMond in 1990. Erik Breukink was no water carrier.[/quote]

Let's be fair, he was far better that year than he had ever been before or was after. Would've won the Tour if he hadn't blown up in the Luz Ardiden stage, and for once was winning from February onwards, all season, when previously he had had no results before mid April

 

[Echoes]

Was it deliberate?

I mean I explicitly said that Belgian teams on the whole turned very late to EPO and so did the Dutch ones, PDM ASIDE. And that the Intralipid affairs (+ the sudden deaths of several riders, not necessarily related to EPO) probably worked as a deterrent for other "lowland" teams not to use EPO or other hormone-based hi-tech doping (Testosterone, HGH, etc.; Van Hooydonck always insisted on the fact that there wasn't only EPO at that time, and pointed to the fact that ex-Telekom riders only admitted to using EPO and nothing else). Okay for TVM it started in 1993 (Skibby's admition), just like French teams, actually.

What are the reactions? A PDM rider (Breukink) and a rider in a Spanish team (Hermans for Caja Rural) ... Besides I'm not sure if this admition by Hermans is correct, 1989 seems too early but okay I might be wrong ...


Whether you like it or not, Raas had a zero-tolerance policy re: EPO and hormone-based doping until May 1996. Van Hooydonck said it multiple times. It's consistent with the evolution of the results of his main leaders: Van Hooydonck & Maassen: worse in 1992 than in 1991, worse in 1993 than in 1992, worse in 1994 than in 1993 etc. Of course, they are classic riders, so you don't care?

Take Lotto: Tchmil aside, they never won any race of note from 1992 to 1996. In 1995, only two riders finished the Tour of France (Tchmil & Farazijn). In 1993, Van Hooydonck was dead last at the Tour of France, he had to fight every day in order to get within time limits. I remember it was said he was sick but Dr Porte didn't see anything wrong with him.

Belgian cycling was at all-time down between 1993 & 1996 (whilie the French were shining). Museeuw was considered the "saviour of Belgian cycling" (but he was racing for Italian teams). I remember that period very well. I remember the days when you could only hope to see Jim Van de Laer finish a mountain stage of the Tour of France before the live coverage ended. Jim is know better known for being the last to get dropped by bionic Argentin in the ascent of the Poggio (Milan-Sanremo 1992) but he was a real talent. Luc Roosen was also such a great talent. The last one to keep Mottet's wheel in the 1988 Lombardy, actually he punctured. Than nothing!

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

"Z"

Z is GAN, and we know quite a few dopers on there
Heck, we don't even have to go to the GAN years. Duclos-Lassale suddenly winning Roubaix twice at age 38 just when EPO appeared?

If there's one big race you could win clean than its Paris-Roubaix.[/quote]


What logical reason is there for that?

[quote=""Jeff"":4s45ctq9]
and there's a difference between 1990-1992 and 1993-1999.
[/quote]

He did win in 93. Just before turning 39...