Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Oufeh]

This infamous bend is here https://goo.gl/maps/3kz86ZybSA82 and definitely not 18% nor 22% but a nice 8%

Guys, check Strava rides there, for example Ten Dam's https://www.strava.com/activities/67057155/analysis/8294/9296 and you'll see he doesn't slow down like it's 18%, but rides at 17-18 kmh, where Froome was doing 29 !
More details here https://www.strava.com/activities/67057155/analysis/8954/8963

 

[Netserk]

Please, tell me what's wrong with it. I know the view on Quintana isn't completely orthogonal with the plane of his bike, but I'd like to see your argument for how big an error that'd cause.

There's two types of refutation available to you:
1) Show the math is wrong, and in that case by how much.
2) Show the premises are wrong, and in that case how big an error that results in.

 

[simoni]

That is correct. The gradients listed are the average for each kilometre, rather than the max gradient for a given km. Some people are equally poor at mathematics as they are at spotting an absurd performance

Hmmm....i got a stamped card that says i rode Ventoux, all 3 sides in one day. Yay me

Now, of course the point about average gradients is technically correct. But Ventoux, certainly from Bedoin, isn't a 'pitchy' climb. It's long, relentless, unchanging gradients. When it says average 10% for a given km, thats mostly made up of constant gradients close to 10%. That's what makes it such a ***, there's no respite after the first couple of K's.

WRT to hairpins, firstly there are very few, if any bends that i'd class as hairpins, not in the Alpine sense. I cant say categorically that there is not a single bit of a road on the climb that touches 18%, but i don't recall any and if there are they would have to be on the very extreme inside of a corner, and why on earth anyone would be riding a bike on such a line is beyond me.

The steepest bit of road always seems to be the final bend and ramp to the weather station, but maybe it just feels like that at the end of the climb....

Having ridden Ventoux from all sides a number of times (and getting my own stamped card last summer!) the only significant tight bend I can recall is below Chalet Reynard and that is a right hand hairpin. I wouldn't be surprised if that is 15% or more on its inside. I can't even remember the one this footage refers to and can only surmise where it is based on the fact that there is vegetation (so below CR) and from knowing roughly where Quintana and then Froome attacked. If its more than 10% at that point I'd be surprised.

 

[Parker]

Having ridden Ventoux from all sides a number of times (and getting my own stamped card last summer!) the only significant tight bend I can recall is below Chalet Reynard and that is a right hand hairpin. I wouldn't be surprised if that is 15% or more on its inside. I can't even remember the one this footage refers to and can only surmise where it is based on the fact that there is vegetation (so below CR) and from knowing roughly where Quintana and then Froome attacked. If its more than 10% at that point I'd be surprised.

This is the bend: http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=7200039

5% going into it, flat going around it, then slightly downhill.

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

Please, tell me what's wrong with it. I know the view on Quintana isn't completely orthogonal with the plane of his bike, but I'd like to see your argument for how big an error that'd cause.

There's two types of refutation available to you:
1) Show the math is wrong, and in that case by how much.
2) Show the premises are wrong, and in that case how big an error that results in.

Netserk ... my brutha ... cannot go mano a mano with you re: advanced math, calculations etc. I defer to Oufeh's post above. Peace, brutha ... have a great weekend.

 

[Netserk]

It's high school level math. Everyone learns the very basics of analytical geometry.

 

[Alpe73]

Re:

It's high school level math. Everyone learns the very basics of analytical geometry.

So they say ... so they say.

They say the same thing about common sense.

Go figger.

 

[simoni]

Re:

It's high school level math. Everyone learns the very basics of analytical geometry.

I don't know the maths in detail unfortunately but it strikes me that the line through the two hubs of Quintana's bike must be open to error as you can't pinpoint the centre of the rear hub in particular. If you got that wrong by, say, 1 degree or 3 degrees, what impact would that have on the result?

 

[Netserk]

That'd depend on in which direction, but if it should have been 1 degree negative to what I used, you'd end at ~20%.

The red line is ~1 degree negative to the black, for reference:

 

[Alpe73]

Re:

:geek:

That'd depend on in which direction, but if it should have been 1 degree negative to what I used, you'd end at ~20%.

(From my end) ... I'm cool to leave it at 25%, extra terestrial, motorized, juice-ized, WTF-ized. :geek:

 

[brownbobby]

Having ridden Ventoux from all sides a number of times (and getting my own stamped card last summer!) the only significant tight bend I can recall is below Chalet Reynard and that is a right hand hairpin. I wouldn't be surprised if that is 15% or more on its inside. I can't even remember the one this footage refers to and can only surmise where it is based on the fact that there is vegetation (so below CR) and from knowing roughly where Quintana and then Froome attacked. If its more than 10% at that point I'd be surprised.

This is the bend: http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=7200039

5% going into it, flat going around it, then slightly downhill.

Downhill on Ventoux? Now that's something I don't 'remember. Until I reached the top and starting heading in the opposite direction :lol:

 

[brownbobby]

That is correct. The gradients listed are the average for each kilometre, rather than the max gradient for a given km. Some people are equally poor at mathematics as they are at spotting an absurd performance

Hmmm....i got a stamped card that says i rode Ventoux, all 3 sides in one day. Yay me

Now, of course the point about average gradients is technically correct. But Ventoux, certainly from Bedoin, isn't a 'pitchy' climb. It's long, relentless, unchanging gradients. When it says average 10% for a given km, thats mostly made up of constant gradients close to 10%. That's what makes it such a ***, there's no respite after the first couple of K's.

WRT to hairpins, firstly there are very few, if any bends that i'd class as hairpins, not in the Alpine sense. I cant say categorically that there is not a single bit of a road on the climb that touches 18%, but i don't recall any and if there are they would have to be on the very extreme inside of a corner, and why on earth anyone would be riding a bike on such a line is beyond me.

The steepest bit of road always seems to be the final bend and ramp to the weather station, but maybe it just feels like that at the end of the climb....

Precisely.
Quite.
That ... along with the 747 that's always taking off ... as you make that righty ... up towards the lip. :lol:
Congrats on the threesy! You be warrior class, brutha.

Thanks man. The day before the tour 2016, when even the pro's weren't man enough to tackle a full single ascent :lol:
The 747's were all on the runway that day, engines on overdrive...

 

[bigcog]

Linking to that clip is only helping the argument that he's using a motor. Proof? No. Comically unbelievable acceleration? Yep. Covered many times over.

Lesser-known video clip from the same Ventoux stage 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTcNaM6ghpQ

Froome walked away from the mountaintop finish on the Ventoux
Whereas Quintana was destroyed, delirious, unable to stand or to respond to reporters' questions, mumbling something to the Movistar soigneur

If I remember correctly I thought Froome required oxygen after the stage ?

 

[rick james]

Linking to that clip is only helping the argument that he's using a motor. Proof? No. Comically unbelievable acceleration? Yep. Covered many times over.

Lesser-known video clip from the same Ventoux stage 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTcNaM6ghpQ

Froome walked away from the mountaintop finish on the Ventoux
Whereas Quintana was destroyed, delirious, unable to stand or to respond to reporters' questions, mumbling something to the Movistar soigneur

If I remember correctly I thought Froome required oxygen after the stage ?

he did, but for the on going matter lets forgett that fact

 

[GraftPunk]

I'm no mod, but should all the Ventoux info possibly get moved to the climbing data thread?

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

I'm no mod, but should all the Ventoux info possibly get moved to the climbing data thread?

Seems like speculation rather than data to be honest and it’s very specific to Froome so I think here is ok.

 

[Angliru]

Don't be so lazy!

I picked two obvious spectators as markers and timed each rider a few times. Quintana took 5 seconds and Froome took 3, with a measurement error of ~0.5 seconds. So not quite twice as fast, but a rough estimate is that Froome was going ~160% of Quintana's speed. That would be on the order of 25 km/hr for Quintana and 40 km/hr for Froome.

Uness you think the original video is a fake? I guess if there were some evidence of that I could accept it. Otherwise it's obvious that Froome is the fake.

John Swanson

Quintana took 5 seconds, Froome 3.

The video clip i watched was 2 seconds long....how on earth did you get those timings

The original video is much longer

John Swanson

edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFxHD0P51-I <--- See? It's only 19 seconds long so it won't take much effort.

Ok, let's have some context here. Froome is going around that corner literally only five seconds after attacking Contador. Of course, he's going superfast.

(Go and look at the stage again - Froome goes from Contador to Quintana in about a minute. There's only one corner like that - I've teed it up for you: https://youtu.be/XOHBIEh9FSU?t=1974).

and lets also not forget that the original clip posted, the one that started this particular debate, was only 2 seconds long and artificially sped up, presumably by a child who has been allowed to play with an adults editing software, to make the speed differential look even greater :lol:

Just a question: if it has been artificially sped up, wouldn't the movements of the fans on the side of the road also be sped up? It appears that their movements are in real time.

 

[brownbobby]

Not at all. Did you watch the clip?

It overlays Froome on top of Quintana.

So Quintana clip plays out real time, fans and all, then a sped up version of Froome coming through ghosted/ layered over the top of the original scene.

It's real amateur stuff. That's what I saw anyways.

 

[TheSpud]

Having ridden Ventoux from all sides a number of times (and getting my own stamped card last summer!) the only significant tight bend I can recall is below Chalet Reynard and that is a right hand hairpin. I wouldn't be surprised if that is 15% or more on its inside. I can't even remember the one this footage refers to and can only surmise where it is based on the fact that there is vegetation (so below CR) and from knowing roughly where Quintana and then Froome attacked. If its more than 10% at that point I'd be surprised.

This is the bend: http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=7200039

5% going into it, flat going around it, then slightly downhill.

Downhill on Ventoux? Now that's something I don't 'remember. Until I reached the top and starting heading in the opposite direction :lol:

It certainly looks like it on the video replay - just after he storms from Dirty Bertie. Seems to flatten or go slightly downhill. I wouldnt be surprised if he hadnt planned that as the best place to attack - really go for it just before, get the gap and then use the flatter section to recover.

 

[brownbobby]

Having ridden Ventoux from all sides a number of times (and getting my own stamped card last summer!) the only significant tight bend I can recall is below Chalet Reynard and that is a right hand hairpin. I wouldn't be surprised if that is 15% or more on its inside. I can't even remember the one this footage refers to and can only surmise where it is based on the fact that there is vegetation (so below CR) and from knowing roughly where Quintana and then Froome attacked. If its more than 10% at that point I'd be surprised.

This is the bend: http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=7200039

5% going into it, flat going around it, then slightly downhill.

Downhill on Ventoux? Now that's something I don't 'remember. Until I reached the top and starting heading in the opposite direction :lol:

It certainly looks like it on the video replay - just after he storms from Dirty Bertie. Seems to flatten or go slightly downhill. I wouldnt be surprised if he hadnt planned that as the best place to attack - really go for it just before, get the gap and then use the flatter section to recover.

Funny, was just thinking the same. I recall SDB talking about planning exactly how they were going to ride the climb.

Imagine that, timing an attack so perfectly....max power for 10 seconds timed perfectly to carry all the momentum into a momentary easing of the gradient. So even during the few seconds you need to recover, you're still accelerating away from the man you just dropped. Free speeeeed

How cool would it be if someone planned something like that and executed it to perfection.

Or maybe it was just a ruse to cover up the motor

 

[MartinGT]

Looks like Deignan has been speaking to his lass about defence talk. 'he hasn't done anything wrong' lol

 

[TheSpud]

Downhill on Ventoux? Now that's something I don't 'remember. Until I reached the top and starting heading in the opposite direction :lol:

It certainly looks like it on the video replay - just after he storms from Dirty Bertie. Seems to flatten or go slightly downhill. I wouldnt be surprised if he hadnt planned that as the best place to attack - really go for it just before, get the gap and then use the flatter section to recover.

Funny, was just thinking the same. I recall SDB talking about planning exactly how they were going to ride the climb.

Imagine that, timing an attack so perfectly....max power for 10 seconds timed perfectly to carry all the momentum into a momentary easing of the gradient. So even during the few seconds you need to recover, you're still accelerating away from the man you just dropped. Free speeeeed

How cool would it be if someone planned something like that and executed it to perfection.

Or maybe it was just a ruse to cover up the motor

I wouldnt be at all surprised if they planned that way. I'm sure anyone at the top of their sport would assess the best places to gain an advantage. I'm sure they planned many scenarios - with the main one being that bend.

 

[GraftPunk]

Does anyone know if TIN, DEM, or Lidar topo is available for download? If someone can point me at a link i can push it through civil 3d and put the argument to rest.

 

[Alpe73]

Re:

Does anyone know if TIN, DEM, or Lidar topo is available for download? If someone can point me at a link i can push it through civil 3d and put the argument to rest.

This little tinker is growing at quite a feckin rate, lads. :lol:
#streetcredshot

 

[jmdirt]

Sorry if this has already been said (I only have a few min here at lunch to read/type).

CF says the media hyped up his case. Probably, but if he didn't have a case, they couldn't hype it up.