Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Parker]

Can you find me a quote that backs that up?

And here;

You've already done it for me.

Like Vayer, it's just one man's opinion. It's largely unsupported. Maybe right, maybe wrong. But then I'm not someone clinging to wattages as an indication of anything.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Team tactics on a mountain mean shiete Parker. The best man wins, we all know that is the Ventoux Bunny. One only needs a strong team to get some dangerous escapee back, not im Frage with the Ventoux Bunny and his Tailwind Tigers.

Quintana attacking 12km from the top of Ventoux, 5km before Froome, had no bearing on his ability to respond to Froome's late attacks. I see.

 

[Parker]

Team tactics on a mountain mean shiete Parker. The best man wins, we all know that is the Ventoux Bunny. One only needs a strong team to get some dangerous escapee back, not im Frage with the Ventoux Bunny and his Tailwind Tigers.

The best man does win. But who the best man is depends on the situation. Froome clearly prefers to accelerate from a smallish group about 15 minutes from the summit. Sky use their team to bring about this scenario on repeated occasions. I bet you think that Sky rode in exactly the same way for Froome as they did for Wiggins, don't you? All riding on the front is exactly the same isn't it?
If this is the level of you cycling understanding,then it's no wonder you see doping everywhere.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You've already done it for me.

Like Vayer, it's just one man's opinion. It's largely unsupported. Maybe right, maybe wrong. But then I'm not someone clinging to wattages as an indication of anything.

Nor am I.

Nice try though - if you remember I asked a question:

Why would Vayer need to know what exactly is the limit of human performance?

The data is there - even with a good margin of error its still a significant performance. The questions are how is that possible? Whats so unique about Froome? Or what are Sky doing differently to realise the potential?

You could have just said you didn't know.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

That footage is still funny now and it will still be funny in 50 years time.

In "The Armstrong Lie" they were clear that Ferrari's recipe for the best way to achieve superior results was to increase cadence in a smaller gear, and dope. You rely on the circulatory system rather than the muscular system to win. He was spinning like a sewing machine.

 

[Parker]

Nor am I.

Nice try though - if you remember I asked a question:

I wasn't trying to imply you were.

You could have just said you didn't know.

As for your question, I thought I'd answered it. I'm not convinced that Froome is unique - just the best at the moment. Somebody has to be the best. I expect others just like him to follow.
As to what Sky are doing differently? Not a great deal. They've got a good coaching set, which a lot have neglected, a strong squad with depth, and a well structured race programme which allows for good training and rest periods.
They also routinely take control on the final climb on races, to the point that other teams seem to let them as an almost Pavlovian reaction. This allows them to engineer the race scenario which best suits their leader.

 

[Red Lobster]

Yes I did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TvHMSyxAfCw#t=1294

Miguel le Grande, a purebred. Love that video too. Do you want the 1994 Ventoux video too? The one where Indurain is riding at 27k/h? Must have been a big tailwind that day too.

Chris and Mig are my big heroes too.

At least Indurain looked like a bike rider ... at the other end of the style spectrum from Froome that's for sure.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I wasn't trying to imply you were.


As for your question, I thought I'd answered it. I'm not convinced that Froome is unique - just the best at the moment. Somebody has to be the best. I expect others just like him to follow.
As to what Sky are doing differently? Not a great deal. They've got a good coaching set, which a lot have neglected, a strong squad with depth, and a well structured race programme which allows for good training and rest periods.
They also routinely take control on the final climb on races, to the point that other teams seem to let them as an almost Pavlovian reaction. This allows them to engineer the race scenario which best suits their leader.

Obviously, someone has to be the best.
But again, I am interested in the numbers he is producing, and even allowing a fair margin of error on those numbers they are on a par with previous doped performances.

You are now saying in essence Froome is not unique - but that Sky are different to other teams. A strong team can control the bunch, it still does not explain the ability to produce +6w figures from a guy who isn't unique.

 

[EnacheV]

At least Indurain looked like a bike rider ... at the other end of the style spectrum from Froome that's for sure.

Indurain looked like a fat pig flying. I find that odds for him to clean are like 0.1 of Froome's odds to be clean, whatever that odds are.

 

[Parker]

But again, I am interested in the numbers he is producing, and even allowing a fair margin of error on those numbers they are on a par with previous doped performances.

He's on a par with some pretty mediocre doped performances. People keep bringing up Ax 3, but he was still slower than Laiseka - who few remember. Not all stages are raced in the same manner. Froome's peak performances are a long way off the best dopers peak performances. He can do for 20 minutes what they did for 40.

You are now saying in essence Froome is not unique - but that Sky are different to other teams. A strong team can control the bunch, it still does not explain the ability to produce +6w figures from a guy who isn't unique.

+6W/kg for what amount of time? Without time, that figure is meaningless. There are a few that can do that for a sustained effort (over 30 minutes). You keep saying he's unique but I see quite a few doing that. Unique does not mean slightly better. A 6'4" man in a room of 6'-6'2" men is not unique, he's just slightly taller.
Sky are different in that every stage race I see they take control. Not all climbers are alike. They like to make their full-on efforts over different amounts of time (e.g. Sastre liked it long, Valverde short). For Froome it's about 15 minutes - his team make that happen.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Indurain looked like a fat pig flying. I find that odds for him to clean are like 0.1 of Froome's odds to be clean, whatever that odds are.

Sure, a guy built like Indurain climbing like he did was preposterous, but you don't think a spindly guy with technique that looks like a tarantula raising its front legs and ambling forward TTing along with guys built like Cancellara and Martin is similarly suspicious?

Froome's climbing is suspicious in the way that Indurain's TTing was: they're built for it, but the level is just too high to not raise some red flags. Froome's TTing is suspicious in the way that Indurain's climbing was: a guy that looks like that should not be putting down that kind of power in that kind of environ.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Indurain looked like a fat pig flying. I find that odds for him to clean are like 0.1 of Froome's odds to be clean, whatever that odds are.

I think big guy Indurain being a top climber is about as believable as anorexic Froome being a world class TTer.

 

[The Hitch]

He's on a par with some pretty mediocre doped performances.

 

[BYOP88]

Indurain looked like a fat pig flying. I find that odds for him to clean are like 0.1 of Froome's odds to be clean, whatever that odds are.

and Froome looks like the people my grandfathers found when their unit liberated Wöbbelin concentration camp.

 

[roundabout]

Laiseka was a mediocre rider on a very good program

 

[LaFlorecita]

and Froome looks like the people my grandfathers found when their unit liberated Wöbbelin concentration camp.

Shudder...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He's on a par with some pretty mediocre doped performances. People keep bringing up Ax 3, but he was still slower than Laiseka - who few remember. Not all stages are raced in the same manner. Froome's peak performances are a long way off the best dopers peak performances. He can do for 20 minutes what they did for 40.


+6W/kg for what amount of time? Without time, that figure is meaningless. There are a few that can do that for a sustained effort (over 30 minutes). You keep saying he's unique but I see quite a few doing that. Unique does not mean slightly better. A 6'4" man in a room of 6'-6'2" men is not unique, he's just slightly taller.
Sky are different in that every stage race I see they take control. Not all climbers are alike. They like to make their full-on efforts over different amounts of time (e.g. Sastre liked it long, Valverde short). For Froome it's about 15 minutes - his team make that happen.

I never said he was unique, I am asking questions - you stated that he is not unique.

The +6w/kg is in relation to Oman - the PE teacher said 6.7, Vetoo says 6.6 6.7. I round down those numbers to include a good margin of error.
The figures are still IMO exceptional - unless you want to name the few that can do that for a "sustained effort (over 30 minutes)".

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Indeed, the change in the early '90s was shockingly abrupt. But I suppose it was just because those newly fast guys suddenly figured out they shouldn't eat pies all winter.

Forget EPO.

It's all about NoPieOh!

Sorry, couldn't help myself...

 

[Parker]

Froome's TTing is suspicious in the way that Indurain's climbing was: a guy that looks like that should not be putting down that kind of power in that kind of environ.

Why not?
Because somewhere along the line you picked up the idea that slim guys can't time trial? Some heuristic that you use to make gut decisions. Any support for it?

He's 68kg which is medium, quite tall so probably a low relative frontal area. Thin limbs - less drag. There's more to consider than some ancient axiom.

A lot of you need to start thinking that some of you heuristics may be be false. They often are.

 

[Parker]

I never said he was unique, I am asking questions - you stated that he is not unique.

The +6w/kg is in relation to Oman - the PE teacher said 6.7, Vetoo says 6.6 6.7. I round down those numbers to include a good margin of error.
The figures are still IMO exceptional - unless you want to name the few that can do that for a "sustained effort (over 30 minutes)".

Vayer says this (6.7w for 9 minutes):

Antoine VAYER ‏@festinaboy Feb 22
Froome's power output ~6.70 W/kg at Oman Tour, 9 mn for "GREEN mountain's" It's a ****ing RED ridiculous performance. Bull****, joke.

Yet Leopold Konig says this (7w for 10 minutes):

Flat tyre at the bottom of Green Mountain? Did 7watts/kg to chase back for 10mins and suddenly I saw 3km to go)#badluck#perfectteam

What Vayer has done is convince you that the ordinary in extraordinary. And you have not questioned it. What we have is bad science sold to non-scientists who are willing to listen. It's a cycling version of Andrew Wakefield.

 

[roundabout]

Froome is not ordinary

However, what you can say is that Froome’s performance on the climb to Ax 3 Domaines was of a very, very high quality, close to what we would expect to see near the limit of what is possible.

And this is from the guy who has seen at least some data.

Neither is Quintana who was allegedly a superb talent from a very early age

http://www.biciciclismo.com/cas/site/noticias-ficha.asp?id=68198

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Why not?
Because somewhere along the line you picked up the idea that slim guys can't time trial? Some heuristic that you use to make gut decisions. Any support for it?

He's 68kg which is medium, quite tall so probably a low relative frontal area. Thin limbs - less drag. There's more to consider than some ancient axiom.

A lot of you need to start thinking that some of you heuristics may be be false. They often are.

Is there any support for the idea that Indurain couldn't climb with the best then?

Froome's technique isn't efficient, his build is spindly and he isn't aerodynamic, yet he's still TTing the same speed as guys with nigh on perfect aerodynamic positions, minimal movement and calves like tree trunks. His lesser drag due to lower frontal area is offset by his less dynamic position.

If Bert Grabsch started climbing with Nibali and co. you'd think it ridiculous. Wouldn't you?

 

[BYOP88]

Vayer says this (6.7w for 9 minutes):

Antoine VAYER ‏@festinaboy Feb 22
Froome's power output ~6.70 W/kg at Oman Tour, 9 mn for "GREEN mountain's" It's a ****ing RED ridiculous performance. Bull****, joke.

Yet Leopold Konig says this (7w for 10 minutes):

Flat tyre at the bottom of Green Mountain? Did 7watts/kg to chase back for 10mins and suddenly I saw 3km to go)#badluck#perfectteam

What Vayer has done is convince you that the ordinary in extraordinary. And you have not questioned it. What we have is bad science sold to non-scientists who are willing to listen. It's a cycling version of Andrew Wakefield.

Just indulge me for a minute. This coming July, a rider who comes from nowhere like Froome and goes on to destroy Froome in the Tour whilst putting out numbers that are Froome-esque, you'll be cool with that and wont cry 'foul'?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Vayer says this (6.7w for 9 minutes):

Antoine VAYER ‏@festinaboy Feb 22
Froome's power output ~6.70 W/kg at Oman Tour, 9 mn for "GREEN mountain's" It's a ****ing RED ridiculous performance. Bull****, joke.

Yet Leopold Konig says this (7w for 10 minutes):

Flat tyre at the bottom of Green Mountain? Did 7watts/kg to chase back for 10mins and suddenly I saw 3km to go)#badluck#perfectteam

What Vayer has done is convince you that the ordinary in extraordinary. And you have not questioned it. What we have is bad science sold to non-scientists who are willing to listen. It's a cycling version of Andrew Wakefield.

Sure - lets go all the way. Vayer is a PE teacher, he doesn't no anything.
Me, I havent a clue. Don't know anything.
Happy so far? So, I am no longer buying whatever Vayer was selling.

Now, why is that this guy Froome, who you say is not unique and is only doing something ordinary then top dog?
Why isn't Konig beating him comfortably - or is he not warming down properly?

 

[Parker]

Now, why is that this guy Froome, who you say is not unique and is only doing something ordinary then top dog?
Why isn't Konig beating him comfortably - or is he not warming down properly?

Because of the timing and pacing of the effort. Konig's a good rider - he should be on a better team. I'm not saying he's the best, just that what Vayer claims is extraordinary really isn't.