Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Von Mises]

I guess it depends on where you start:



If the climb is 840m at 7%, then Froome's power is estimated at a much more believable 6.16 watts/kg. Anyone know where he started?

It's interesting that TD is so high on that list, the same as Porte, and only a handful of seconds behind Froome. He's a known doper, like the others below him on that list, but would any of these guys actually dope for a one shot climb that isn't part of a race, for a training ride? You might a little, but you obviously wouldn't waste a blood bag on a training ride. So maybe those times are for a shorter distance. But if Froome is going to compare his time to those of others, he has to know where everyone started. So if he knows what he's talking about, there must be an established place where all the pros start.

Then again, in the same article quoted above, it says Ferrari expected LA to do the ride in 6.8 watts/kg. He surely couldn't have done that clean. And his stated time for 12 km wouldn't do it. Some things don't add up.

Madone does not have official starting point. It can be 15 km long and 9 km long and anything between. I checked Starva (several pros have Madone segments in Strava), but problem is same: no established starting point, lenght of the climb can vary a lot, different segments have listed as Madone.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Hence the stupidity of comparing historical performances, even though there is a desperation to establish a performance ceiling, where any performance obove cannot be anything than doped. Of course most performances below that threshold are considered doped too. Basically if you ride a bike you're doping.

 

[Kretch]

It'll be an issue if he's not at the front. May be an issue for everyone else if he is at the front.

Cue Eisel, Thomas and Wiggo to barrel him into position. Gonna be a great stage.

 

[Nathan12]

Hence the stupidity of comparing historical performances, even though there is a desperation to establish a performance ceiling, where any performance obove cannot be anything than doped. Of course most performances below that threshold are considered doped too. Basically if you ride a bike you're doping.

Froome started the comparison. Don't shoot the messengers.

 

[The Hitch]

Basically if you ride a bike you're doping.

Nope. Froome is. No one said that means everyone who rides a bike is doping. Don't take out your frustration of the fact that a guy you cheer for for totally narrowminded reasons is accused of being a fraud because he walks and talks like a fraud, on all bike riders.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Nope. Froome is. No one said that means everyone who rides a bike is doping. Don't take out your frustration of the fact that a guy you cheer for for totally narrowminded reasons is accused of being a fraud because he walks and talks like a fraud, on all bike riders.

Narrowminded? Pray tell, how am I narrowminded? Tell me the reasons I cheer for Froome? In fact, tell me I cheer for Froome, I hadn't noticed, but I'm glad you know me so well.

Its easy to chuck around accusations of narrowmindedness, isn't it. In fact I can throw it right back at you, the fact your own prejudices make you go out and attack riders like Froome and Wiggins, and be highly critical of British culture and media, in many of your postings here. You're Polish right, living in Britain, and you've made some astonishing generalisations about the country in the past. You don't like narrowmindedness, I suggest you look within and address your own.

 

[King Boonen]

To be fair to Hitch, if he is Polish, living in London and subjected to the bull**** that is currently being forced down our throats by newspapers and "politicians", specifically involving Polish immigrants, I wouldn't blame him for being a bit jaded and critical.

 

[The Hitch]

To be fair to Hitch, if he is Polish, living in London and subjected to the bull**** that is currently being forced down our throats by newspapers and "politicians", specifically involving Polish immigrants, I wouldn't blame him for being a bit jaded and critical.

I have no great allegiance to either Poland or Britain or any nation. Athletes from either country are just people who happened to be born on that land.

And I couldn't possibly comment on doping discussions if nationality had any influence over my opinions.

 

[The Hitch]

Narrowminded? Pray tell, how am I narrowminded? Tell me the reasons I cheer for Froome? In fact, tell me I cheer for Froome, I hadn't noticed, but I'm glad you know me so well.

Its easy to chuck around accusations of narrowmindedness, isn't it. In fact I can throw it right back at you, the fact your own prejudices make you go out and attack riders like Froome and Wiggins, and be highly critical of British culture and media, in many of your postings here. You're Polish right, living in Britain, and you've made some astonishing generalisations about the country in the past. You don't like narrowmindedness, I suggest you look within and address your own.

What generalizations have I made about the country?

 

[JimmyFingers]

To be fair to Hitch, if he is Polish, living in London and subjected to the bull**** that is currently being forced down our throats by newspapers and "politicians", specifically involving Polish immigrants, I wouldn't blame him for being a bit jaded and critical.

He should also be aware that no media, no group, no philosophy represents the multi-cultural United Kingdom as a whole, something he has suggested in the past. This is a nation of several billion, yet he likes to lump us all in together, regularly.

Just now he tells me I'm narrow-minded, which I'm not, and that I cheer for Froome, which I don't. He's also said that British people cheer for Sky and Sky riders because of nationalism.

Those are astonishing generalisations and assumptions to make.

 

[JimmyFingers]

What generalizations have I made about the country?

I asked a question first.

 

[King Boonen]

I have no great allegiance to either Poland or Britain or any nation. Athletes from either country are just people who happened to be born on that land.

And I couldn't possibly comment on doping discussions if nationality had any influence over my opinions.

It was more being jaded with the media I was alluding to, I wasn't implying you'd have a national bias in your opinion on doping.

 

[lemoogle]

He should also be aware that no media, no group, no philosophy represents the multi-cultural United Kingdom as a whole, something he has suggested in the past. This is a nation of several billion, yet he likes to lump us all in together, regularly.

Just now he tells me I'm narrow-minded, which I'm not, and that I cheer for Froome, which I don't. He's also said that British people cheer for Sky and Sky riders because of nationalism.

Those are astonishing generalisations and assumptions to make.

Who do you cheer for if I may ask?

And as much as you want to argue, there are generalizations that can be made about the british cycling PUBLIC and even more so on the british sports media ( for which it isnt so much a generalization but rather an observation based on 100% of available news media ).

Without generalizations nothing can be said because noone knows the entirety of individual cases. After that making an assumption on an individual is not right I agree with you. HOWEVER you've posted around for a long enough times that people can have some developed some opinions on you without those being nation based generalizations.

 

[lemoogle]

I have no great allegiance to either Poland or Britain or any nation. Athletes from either country are just people who happened to be born on that land.

And I couldn't possibly comment on doping discussions if nationality had any influence over my opinions.

The french we are super nationalistic in who we support , but we are also the first to doubt or judge our own athletes. Most of the time it sucks because we call dope if a french guy finished 15th of a climb BUT we don't doubt the <insert nationality here> guy that put 2 minutes in the guy (self deprecation I guess, other people "train better" and are more "motivated" ) , but I do wish more countries were ready to doubt performances of their own athletes.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Who do you cheer for if I may ask?

And as much as you want to argue, there are generalizations that can be made about the british cycling PUBLIC and even more so on the british sports media ( for which it isnt so much a generalization but rather an observation based on 100% of available news media ).

Without generalizations nothing can be said because noone knows the entirety of individual cases. After that making an assumption on an individual is not right I agree with you. HOWEVER you've posted around for a long enough times that people can have some developed some opinions on you without those being nation based generalizations.

In cycling? Cavendish mainly, and riders that I like the style of.

But it remains a generalisation, doesn't it. Generalisations are massively flawed inherently, because you disregard nuance and individuality. I do not want to be judged on someone pre-conceptions of me based on generalisations of my culture made in places like here.

 

[rhubroma]

If you ask people who seriously follow cycling in the Latin countries of Europe what they think about pro racers as a whole, you are more likely to get the response that they are all doped, to some degree or another.

And that only a fool, or an idiot, would assume they weren't untill they tested positive.

 

[thehog]

If you ask people who seriously follow cycling in the Latin countries of Europe what they think about pro racers as a whole, you are more likely to get the response that they are all doped, to some degree or another.

And that only a fool, or an idiot, would assume they weren't untill they tested positive.

I find it funny as well. Talk to an italian and its doping is mentioned in passing. Matter of fact. Why of course?

Talk to a Brit and they want to punch your face in if you mention doping.

Which is odd because coming from a country whereby its football (soccer) has been banned from Europe for violence and its player are regularly involved in drug & sex scandals of all sorts.

 

[HSNHSN]

I guess it depends on where you start:



If the climb is 840m at 7%, then Froome's power is estimated at a much more believable 6.16 watts/kg. Anyone know where he started?

It's interesting that TD is so high on that list, the same as Porte, and only a handful of seconds behind Froome. He's a known doper, like the others below him on that list, but would any of these guys actually dope for a one shot climb that isn't part of a race, for a training ride? You might a little, but you obviously wouldn't waste a blood bag on a training ride. So maybe those times are for a shorter distance. But if Froome is going to compare his time to those of others, he has to know where everyone started. So if he knows what he's talking about, there must be an established place where all the pros start.

Then again, in the same article quoted above, it says Ferrari expected LA to do the ride in 6.8 watts/kg. He surely couldn't have done that clean. And his stated time for 12 km wouldn't do it. Some things don't add up.

Interesting. Did anyone try asking how Sky/Froome knew where to start timing the climb? Since there doesn't seem to be an agreed on starting point of the Madone climb, knowing something like this suggests dubious connections (that Sky of course does not have). Or maybe Sky just decided a starting point by itself, in which case the climbing times are completely and utterly useless.

When it comes to power data: if Armstrong needed 6.8W/kg on that climb to be sure of having a TdF form and Froome rode it faster now, with a calculated 6.16W/kg, then maybe the climb isn't as regular as we're told it is? Or perhaps the formula used for estimates just isn't that good and useful at all?

 

[rhubroma]

I find it funny as well. Talk to an italian and its doping is mentioned in passing. Matter of fact. Why of course?

Talk to a Brit and they want to punch your face in if you mention doping.

Which is odd because coming from a country whereby its football (soccer) has been banned from Europe for violence and its player are regularly involved in drug & sex scandals of all sorts.

Can't speek for the Brits, but among Italians omerta (a term that wasn't borne in cycling) exists so that everybody knows what's going on. I realize this is paradoxical, but it permits one to know the reality precisely because it has been concealed.

And one never runs the risk of disillusionment.

 

[Hawkwood]

I find it funny as well. Talk to an italian and its doping is mentioned in passing. Matter of fact. Why of course?

Talk to a Brit and they want to punch your face in if you mention doping.

Which is odd because coming from a country whereby its football (soccer) has been banned from Europe for violence and its player are regularly involved in drug & sex scandals of all sorts.

I'm British, I rarely talk about cycle racing with friends and colleagues as they simply say all racing cyclists dope. I've the tried the `what about football, rugby etc' but this doesn't work, it's cycling that's got the shocking reputation.

 

[thehog]

I'm British, I rarely talk about cycle racing with friends and colleagues as they simply say all racing cyclists dope. I've the tried the `what about football, rugby etc' but this doesn't work, it's cycling that's got the shocking reputation.

Cycling does have a bad reputation. Outside of major championships Football is fortunate because the doping can occur at the training facility then they can travel to the game.

Poor old cyclists have to carry their cache around with them. Although Sky appear to have found a solution to that problem.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Hence the stupidity of comparing historical performances, even though there is a desperation to establish a performance ceiling, where any performance obove cannot be anything than doped. Of course most performances below that threshold are considered doped too. Basically if you ride a bike you're doping.

I agree Jimmy, I also like to go direct to the horse's mouth:
http://velovoices.com/2013/06/07/friday-feature-chris-froome-interview-part-2/

Romain: Which are your training routes around here?

Chris: I start off in Monaco and ride up to La Turbie, La Peille, down to L?Escarene, Col de St Roche, Col du Turini, Sospel, Col du Braus and down to the valley in Ventimiglia (Italy). Then I can either come back along the coast road or via St Agnes and the Col de La Madone.

Romain: So that?s, what, 120km?

Chris: 130km.

Sheree: What?s your best time up the Madone?

Chris: 32 minutes, which I did today on one of the only occasions I?ve gone flat out from bottom to top.

Bottom to top, I will let others do the math.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I find it funny as well. Talk to an italian and its doping is mentioned in passing. Matter of fact. Why of course?

Talk to a Brit and they want to punch your face in if you mention doping.

Which is odd because coming from a country whereby its football (soccer) has been banned from Europe for violence and its player are regularly involved in drug & sex scandals of all sorts.

Sorry but when was the last time a British person wanted to punch you in the face for talking about doping, and if they did want to, are you sure they wanted to because you were talking about doping and not because you were purposely trying to wind them up? I just want examples of British people threatening you with violence for talking about doping, not just some generalised, throwaway accusation.

Froome got spat on 15 times on the Mt Ventoux, wonder which nationalities got involved there?

And our hooligan element has mostly been eliminated from the terraces, unlike in Italy, where the Ultras regularly still run amok and actually weild degrees of power within the clubs.

There are skeletons in every cupboard.

 

[Scott SoCal]

I find it funny as well. Talk to an italian and its doping is mentioned in passing. Matter of fact. Why of course?

Talk to a Brit and they want to punch your face in if you mention doping.

Which is odd because coming from a country whereby its football (soccer) has been banned from Europe for violence and its player are regularly involved in drug & sex scandals of all sorts.

All I have to say is thank God the Americans don't dope.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Cue Eisel, Thomas and Wiggo to barrel him into position. Gonna be a great stage.

The way Wiggo rode at P-R he might be a favorite for the stage.