Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

Page 534 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Nov 29, 2010
2,326
0
0
“My training files belonged to a guy who should have been on the podium at the Tour de France, whereas my race results belong to a guy who should have been on the couch watching the Tour de France.”

Froome's words. Then where the hell are these training files amico ? :confused:

People have been asking for a long time now, got them or not ?

Merckx index said:
He claims that his first treatment, indeed several subsequent treatments, did not cure him of the disease, though several authorities on the disease have pointed out that this is virtually unheard of.

Don't want to ruin the circle jerk but it's not "virtually unheard" of, it's fairly common that you will need a second (or even more) dose of Praziquantel ... that Bilharzia thread was a cesspit of ignorance, a couple of posters who have a relation to someone who works in medicine don't count as an authority on the subject.

British med journal lists 66-95% (effiacy rate of one dose of praziquantel) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230106/
Medscape says 65-90% http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/228392-treatment

I just googled around and every site that talks about Praziquantel treatment for schistosomiasis will tell you they test for eggs 6 months after to see if another dose is needed. No idea where that got translated as virtually unheard of.

Anyways carry on ...
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
the sceptic said:
it was funny when Dawg was talking about winning the next 8 tours.

Everything was going so well too, they even installed Cookson in office. I dont know what went wrong. But I guess not everyone inside the UCI is happy with their new overlords, hence the TUE leak.

I believe ASO has more power in cycling than UCI. If ASO wanted they could by-pass UCI pretty quickly and set up a new 'league'.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
Parker said:
Who knows how they rated him?

Total obsucation. We know, Froome was told he was not going to be offered a contract for the following season.

Parker said:
Maybe they saw him as a raw talent who couldn't transfer the numbers into results and were losing patience. Maybe they were just trying to drive his contract renewal price down. Maybe they were too focused on Wiggins.

They saw nothing in him, hence getting rid off.

Parker said:
Different people, different perspectives. I'm not going to take the one that suits me as the definitive truth.

Suiting yourself as to what is the truth shows you are trolling.
 
Mar 4, 2011
3,346
451
14,580
Benotti69 said:
Total obsucation. We know, Froome was told he was not going to be offered a contract for the following season.



They saw nothing in him, hence getting rid off.



Suiting yourself as to what is the truth shows you are trolling.

To your three points.

Were they not offering him anything? He says he was offered a reduced contract.

Were they getting rid? Or just hiring at the lowest price? It's not in any team's interest to pay above the odds.
 

stutue

BANNED
Apr 22, 2014
875
0
0
Benotti69 said:
Suiting yourself as to what is the truth shows you are trolling.

Errr....isn't suiting himself precisely what he says he ISNT doing?

Besides, put the T word back in your pocket and stop getting personal.
 
Jul 27, 2010
5,121
884
19,680
deValtos said:
Don't want to ruin the circle jerk but it's not "virtually unheard" of, it's fairly common that you will need a second (or even more) dose of Praziquantel ... that Bilharzia thread was a cesspit of ignorance, a couple of posters who have a relation to someone who works in medicine don't count as an authority on the subject.

British med journal lists 66-95% (effiacy rate of one dose of praziquantel) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230106/
Medscape says 65-90% http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/228392-treatment

I just googled around and every site that talks about Praziquantel treatment for schistosomiasis will tell you they test for eggs 6 months after to see if another dose is needed. No idea where that got translated as virtually unheard of.

Anyways carry on ...

I should have been clearer. Four treatments is virtually unheard of, again, several doctors have weighed in on this, both on this forum and in an article that was discussed here a couple of months ago. Not friends of friends, but actual doctors with experience in treating the disease. In the article that was discussed here, the doctor quoted was a prominent London specialist who said he found all of Froome's treatments extremely unusual, to the point of unique. Even Froome's own doctor could only speculate that in one of his early treatments he was not given an adequate dose.

The article you quote, which I'm very familiar with, also notes that 95-100% efficacy is observed after a second treatment. Also, if you'd read that a little more carefully, you'd note they said that 66-95% efficacy was for a single 40 mg dose, which is not optimal, but which is easier to administer in the field. When you're doing epidemiological studies with large populations, it's not easy to give divided doses, with each patient returning once or twice after several hours.

I also should add that even in patients who are not fully cured with a single treatment, you still expect a large reduction in worm burden and/or activity. So even if Froome was not fully cured with one treatment, he should have experienced far less in the way of symptoms, IOW, much less impact on his cycling.

Yes, people are expected to go in for a check-up, but not just because the first dose might not have killed all the worms. Also to see if most of the eggs have been excreted, as they cause many of the symptoms, e.g., loss of hemoglobin.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
Parker said:
To your three points.

Were they not offering him anything? He says he was offered a reduced contract.

Why would they offer less? Cause he was crap?

Parker said:
Were they getting rid? Or just hiring at the lowest price? It's not in any team's interest to pay above the odds.

all the attention to detail and they felt Froome was not worth keeping.....
 
Mar 4, 2011
3,346
451
14,580
Benotti69 said:
Why would they offer less? Cause he was crap?

all the attention to detail and they felt Froome was not worth keeping.....
No, they wanted to keep him. They just didn't want to pay too much (in retrospect a bad move)
 
Mar 9, 2013
572
0
0
I know we can speculate and examine every word. That comes from SKY/Froome. But all I see is a rider who is struggling to be in the upper mid peleton in results. And at 1 GT he turns into a world beater?

I have to say I believe Froomes diet, training are probably impeccable. But his results and past history just do not add up. If there is one thing LA, Floyd, & Tyler have taught me. If it looks not normal. It is not!
 
Sep 29, 2012
12,197
0
0
Merckx index said:
I should have been clearer. Four treatments is virtually unheard of, again, several doctors have weighed in on this, both on this forum and in an article that was discussed here a couple of months ago. Not friends of friends, but actual doctors with experience in treating the disease. In the article that was discussed here, the doctor quoted was a prominent London specialist who said he found all of Froome's treatments extremely unusual, to the point of unique. Even Froome's own doctor could only speculate that in one of his early treatments he was not given an adequate dose.

And the symptoms Froome described were similar in nature to what an asthmatic would experience.

People who have chronic Bilharzia tend to experience chronic symptoms, yet Froome never mentions anything of the sort.

There are 5 different types of Bilharzia, but if you are interested in reading what one of those types sounds like when it's chronic, have a read of this. It will blow your mind re: UK health system, as well as the difference between what Chris has described and what this woman went through in terms of symptoms.

It tends to descend into melodrama somewhat, but I found it an interesting read nonetheless.

The things I noted:
1. symptoms for chronic infestation were a bit more than what Froome has ever communicated
2. the first symptom is a distinctive "swimmer's itch" that Chris *never* noticed / mentioned. (? unless it's in his book but noone's mentioned it). He allegedly went *swimming* in infected water, not just walking, so his entire body would have been covered, head to toe in these itchy, red spots.

This is non-negotiable: the worm infests you by burrowing through your skin into your body.

http://sickontheroad.com/2014/06/26/ongoing-schistosomiasis-infection-difficulty-finding-treatment/
 
Jul 3, 2014
2,351
15
11,510
Benotti69 said:
I think this has a lot to do with ASO not wanting a rider winning a good few GTs then being found out and leaving the mess similar to Armstrong.

If thats true then in my view they should make the race easier. Putting a double ascent of Alpe and the Ventoux in the same edition just makes the mountains crazy, encourages the arms race and realistically reduces the number of contenders dramatically. Make the race flatter and / or cut the number of MTFs and there would be more riders capable of winning - just my late night thoughts.
 
Jun 14, 2010
34,930
60
22,580
deValtos said:
Don't want to ruin the circle jerk but it's not "virtually unheard" of, it's fairly common that you will need a second (or even more) dose of Praziquantel ... that Bilharzia thread was a cesspit of ignorance, a couple of posters who have a relation to someone who works in medicine don't count as an authority on the subject.

There were at least 3 posters who have worked with Bilharzia patients directly
And even if you doubt their claims everything they said was verified and backed up by sources that went beyond the first google hit.

Anyway
British med journal lists 66-95% (effiacy rate of one dose of praziquantel) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230106/
Medscape says 65-90% http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/228392-treatment

I just googled around and every site that talks about Praziquantel treatment for schistosomiasis will tell you they test for eggs 6 months after to see if another dose is needed. No idea where that got translated as virtually unheard of.

Anyways carry on ...
What do you think those links show:confused:

First of all you haven't posted anything new, the efficacy rates has been covered in far more depth than a google link.

Anyway your vague 66% figure is for the general schistosomiasis population. 99.9% of the people who have schistosomiasis are poor rural Africans who live in the immediate vicinity of lakes.

Any studies you research on the internet refer to that group becuause among those people schistosomiasis is a dangerous potentially deadly recurring disease.
Froome who lives in Monaco does not belong to that group. He belongs to the group who do not live in Africa and got Schistosomiasis on a short trip there, who are under no danger of further infection (or reinefection) - since schistosomiasis (the kind that infects humans) does not exist in Europe.

Your studies have no relevance for this group.

So your 66% figure is meaningless. For tourists the cure rate for Prazinquantel is far higher than 66%. The reason for that is that what causes praziquantel to not succesfully destroy all the schistosomes is a heavy worm burden. A heavy worm burden happens when someone spends a LOT of time in the schisto infested lakes. In the vast majority of cases this is children who play in the water all day and over a lengthy period of time develop a heavy worm burden.

In this case the 40 mg dose of praziquantel doesn't destroy all the schistosomes because there are too many, but it still destroys the vast majority to the point that against the next 40 mg dose the schistosomes have no chance.

Froome in no way fits the profile of someone with a heavy worm burden. For one he was not a 5 year old who's solution for boredom is to spend all day splashing other kids in a lake.. For two we know he spent the season in Europe riding cycling races so wasn't building up a heavy worm burden over time. For three he claims to have had several relations diagnosed with Bilharzia before so its not like he would go into a lake and spend all day swimming knowing the risk to his career. Fourthly the symptoms for a heavy worm burden are significant and Froome on several occasions outright denied feeling bad. His description of his symptoms are tiny and from what one of the doctors said he wouldn't be riding a bike professionaly (let alone gts)

But even assuming Froome still found a way to get a heavy worm burden despite not fitting in anyway the profile for a heavy worm burden patient, and (unlike many poor Africans) being perfectly well informed of the risk, AND deliberately lied to everyone about his symptoms while being very ill with a heavy worm burden AND rode gts on insane will power, all of which make no medical sense whatsoever he still would have been cured by the 2nd pzq treatment.

This is because as pointed out above, PZQ is VERY efficient against schistosomes which are no match for it, any schistosomes left after a first dose will be easily destroyed by a second. And before you say that the disease will get worse between treatments (which is what both Brailsford and Froome have incorrectly claimed) if anything schistosomiasis can only get weaker over time not stronger (even if the patient receives no treatment they will be totally cured within 8 years).

So therefore, even if we use your lower figure of 66% efficacy, for one pzq treatment the efficacy for two pzq treatments is infinately higher and rises exponentially with each next treatment. It is unheard of for someone to require three treatments.

But the kicker is that Froome claims to have required 4:eek:

So in other words his bout with Bilharzia has to have been several times worst than the previous most serious recorded bout with Bilharzia. Despite not in anyway fitting the profile of a severe Bilharzia patient and displaying none of the symptoms.

One can either believe this (and at the same time believe in the other half of the sky miracle story - that both he and Wiggins happen to be 2 unique talents who happened to end up on the same team, from the same country at the same time and realize their talents in the same time period etc) or one can believe, in light of the fact that he has implicitly admitted lying about other parts of his story by changing the details from one article to the next, and got other parts of the Bilharzia story totally wrong, that his Bilharzia story is BS and the Froome story as a whole is exactly what it appears to anyone with more than 2 braincells
 
Jun 14, 2010
34,930
60
22,580
Merckx index said:
I should have been clearer. Four treatments is virtually unheard of, again, several doctors have weighed in on this, both on this forum and in an article that was discussed here a couple of months ago. Not friends of friends, but actual doctors with experience in treating the disease. In the article that was discussed here, the doctor quoted was a prominent London specialist who said he found all of Froome's treatments extremely unusual, to the point of unique. Even Froome's own doctor could only speculate that in one of his early treatments he was not given an adequate dose.

And Froome's own doctor is quoted on his own webpage as saying Bilharzia is easy to cure.
 

thehog

BANNED
Jul 27, 2009
31,285
2
22,485
kingjr said:
It says next to the Graph 'Level of Performance'.

It says nothing about potential. We know Froome was rubbish at Sky pretty much until the Vuelta 2011, the Graph represents that.

Discrete mathematics not a strong point, I take it?

'Level of Performance' is the x axis not the title of the graph nor is the graph representing performance in isolation.

Brailsford clearly states that "potential" is one of the key data points the graph dipicts in his 'theory'.

As he says from the article;

“The graph roughly maps the trajectory of a cyclist’s career,” says Brailsford. “There are different phases of a pro’s career. As people go from phase to phase, what does it mean in terms of potential, salary, the coaching and support you need and lifestyle?

Brailsford had placed Froome in sector 5;

5. Riders in this area are borderline for us. As you get older, the potential for improvement disappears and so it’s much more a judgement call. A rider might bring something to the team in terms of his personality that makes him a good guy to have around.
 
Sep 9, 2012
5,276
2,490
20,680
Once again, more clearly I hope:

These dots with the riders initials next to them represent their current level of performance. Nothing more, nothing less. Everything else is guesswork, based on previous experience, which is represented by the curve named 'Estimated trajectory of a cyclist's career'. It's an estimate. It doesn't have to be accurate all the time.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
TheSpud said:
If thats true then in my view they should make the race easier. Putting a double ascent of Alpe and the Ventoux in the same edition just makes the mountains crazy, encourages the arms race and realistically reduces the number of contenders dramatically. Make the race flatter and / or cut the number of MTFs and there would be more riders capable of winning - just my late night thoughts.
good post.

in the nineties mainstream media were already commenting on the correlation between the toughness of the TdF and the need for doping.
somehow that discussion seems to have faded.
it was clear back then already that the TdF is so tough it is insane to ask riders to ride it on bread and water alone.
it's a pity for the spectator but the parcours should be made easier.
not likely to happen though.
 
Jul 3, 2014
2,351
15
11,510
sniper said:
good post.

in the nineties mainstream media were already commenting on the correlation between the toughness of the TdF and the need for doping.
somehow that discussion seems to have faded.
it was clear back then already that the TdF is so tough it is insane to ask riders to ride it on bread and water alone.
it's a pity for the spectator but the parcours should be made easier.
not likely to happen though.

Bring back the time bonuses for intermediate sprints, top 5 in the stage, and top 3 over the mountains I say, and make them worthwhile to ensure people have a go for them.

OT I know.
 
Jul 3, 2014
2,351
15
11,510
Back to the graph, a quick google gave me this

http://www.qaster.com/q/47848730677...ers+on+a+scatter+graph+anyone+have+that+handy

Seems its a mock up of one he was shown, so its an illustration not actually DBs slide / graph. I don't think you can necessarily examine the minutiae of each riders position (relative or otherwise) to each other or the 'progression' line because of this. But as a general kind of SWOT type analysis, etc. based on the zones it works.
 
May 10, 2009
4,640
10
15,495
Lionel Birnie @lionelbirnie Jun 16 A mock up based on seeing the actual graph and following an explanation, not made up on a whim, I should point out.

They were a snapshot of a moment in time in late 2010/early 2011 based on a chart I was shown & allowed to copy

The chart was based on four things: age, cost, results to date, likely potential rather than opinion.

They were a snapshot of a moment in time in late 2010/early 2011 based on a chart I was shown & allowed to copy
......................
 
Mar 18, 2009
981
0
0
Ok, from that snapshot graph, I read it as low cost, low potential for a number of their riders and some riders were out the door due to age and cost.

On the other hand it tells me that Froome was a talentless hack with no potential to be a GT rider ever..;)
 
Dec 11, 2013
1,138
0
0
Netserk said:
What kind of argument is that? One transformation (caused by doping) will have to be the most extreme. No matter what. And no matter what, the most extreme transformation will never have been seen before. No matter what. Therefore you cannot use that to conclude whether or not doping is the whole answer to that. #logic101


One clean transformation will have to be the most extreme. No matter what. And no matter what, the most extreme transformation will never have been seen before. No matter what. Therefore you cannot use that to conclude whether or not doping is the whole answer to that.
 
Aug 31, 2012
7,550
3
0
Merckx index said:
No one can prove beyond a shadow of doubt that Froome is doping, granted. But what we can say with certainty is that literally overnight he experienced a dramatic, essentially unprecedented increase in weight/power. Despite Sky’s chicken-****, hypocritical refusal to publish his power values, we have enough data to make this claim. This is what has to be explained.

He didn’t just become a better climber or tactical GT rider overnight. He also became a much better TTer, consistently several % faster, which represents a huge increase in power. Even if he was able to lose several kgs without any loss in power, which is highly dubious, this would not improve his TTng that much. This improvement demands a large increase in raw power, I just don’t see any way around it. And this increase occurred at a time when by his own words he was losing weight, and at the very best, would hope to maintain power, or minimize loss of it.

So the argument that he came from a poor background in cycling, and his talent only became manifest after working in the Sky program, doesn’t work. Even if he had extensive work in a wind tunnel—and on the contrary, Froome has said he never spent any time that way—nothing Sky might have done to improve his bike handling skills would allow him to go from at best an upper middle of the pack TTer to one of the best in the world. OTOH, we have in recent years seen a number of climbing specialists suddenly make similar large jumps in TT performance—Heras, Basso, Contador, e.g.—and in every case we have good reason to attribute that to doping. We also saw LA go from a decent TTer to the very best in the same way.

The schisto argument also fails. Froome has never provided a shred of evidence that the disease impacted his performance; on the contrary, what evidence we have been able to piece together from his somewhat inconsistent stories indicates that he was basically the same rider before and immediately after the period during which he probably contracted the disease. We have also been told that the disease did not affect his blood values.

He says he was diagnosed and first treated in December of 2010, yet he still did not exhibit any major improvement in his riding in the following year, until the Vuelta. He claims that his first treatment, indeed several subsequent treatments, did not cure him of the disease, though several authorities on the disease have pointed out that this is virtually unheard of. Moreover, even if this really is the case, the timeline doesn’t back up a story of the disease inhibiting his performance. He had a second treatment shortly after the 2011 Vuelta, despite being at his maximum performance level in that race. He blamed a chest infection in early 2012 on the disease, yet he rode fine at the TDF that year. He also rode well at the Vuelta (taking into account the effect of the previous Tour), and all through the 2013 season up to and including the TDF, yet he claims he still wasn’t cured of the disease and had two more treatments during this period.

So we’re supposed to believe that Froome, virtually unique among individuals with the disease, was not cured until he had four treatments. Because of this, the symptoms were constantly returning, yet except for one period in early 2012 that was not critical to his schedule, they never came at a time when they affected any of his racing. This is in sharp contrast to pre-2011, when, the story goes, the disease was affecting his performance all the time, and without his even being aware of it.

So how could Froome achieve such a remarkable transformation through doping? If he was not blood doping at first, or only at a very low level, I think a stronger program could explain his TTng, just as it has other riders. I don't find this part of his transformation so difficult to understand.

I think his climbing is harder to explain. He's very tall for a rider, a body type not naturally suited to mountain goats. Weight loss drugs could be part of the answer. This would also explain his increasing fragility. Remember, even Walsh predicted that Froome’s days at the top were severely limited. But even so, I find his transformation as a climber remarkable, and the most difficult part of the story to explain, even assuming doping. He remains a puzzle to me.

Edit: Just had an inspiration (I think). If Froome's story is ever made into a movie, the actor I'd like to see play the Dawg is Jim Parsons, aka Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory.
slow_clap_citizen_kane.gif
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Merckx index said:
I think his climbing is harder to explain. He's very tall for a rider, a body type not naturally suited to mountain goats. Weight loss drugs could be part of the answer. This would also explain his increasing fragility. Remember, even Walsh predicted that Froome’s days at the top were severely limited. But even so, I find his transformation as a climber remarkable, and the most difficult part of the story to explain, even assuming doping. He remains a puzzle to me.
agree he's tallish for a climber. I said the same about Ten Dam. In a clean field he'd be too tall to climb with the top 10 climbers.

why though are you not considering blooddoping (in addition to weight loss drugs) as possibly a major factor in improving climbing skills, besides TT skills?
doesn't blooddoping help improve the entire package from tt-ing to climbing?
 
Jul 9, 2012
2,614
285
11,880
deValtos said:
“My training files belonged to a guy who should have been on the podium at the Tour de France, whereas my race results belong to a guy who should have been on the couch watching the Tour de France.”

Froome's words. Then where the hell are these training files amico ? :confused:

People have been asking for a long time now, got them or not ?



Don't want to ruin the circle jerk but it's not "virtually unheard" of, it's fairly common that you will need a second (or even more) dose of Praziquantel ... that Bilharzia thread was a cesspit of ignorance, a couple of posters who have a relation to someone who works in medicine don't count as an authority on the subject.

British med journal lists 66-95% (effiacy rate of one dose of praziquantel) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230106/
Medscape says 65-90% http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/228392-treatment

I just googled around and every site that talks about Praziquantel treatment for schistosomiasis will tell you they test for eggs 6 months after to see if another dose is needed. No idea where that got translated as virtually unheard of.

Anyways carry on ...

I was going to make the same point but it's a waste of time. Apparently, everyone on here is an expert in tropical medicine.
 
Jul 21, 2012
9,860
3
0
bigcog said:
I was going to make the same point but it's a waste of time. Apparently, everyone on here is an expert in tropical medicine.

Forget about the Badzilla. Its a red herring.

Just take a moment and imagine that Froome started doping in late 2011. It all makes sense then.
 

Latest posts