Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[BYOP88]

Re: Re:

LeMond repeats calls for greater transparency in the sport

LeMond is saying Sky need to release the data for transparency and that it all sounds a bit Armstrong..........

LeMond said that he would like to see the individuals in the sport offering up more data, with VO2 Max – a measure of maximal oxygen capacity – one of the most important.

“I think that the problem is – and this is not to critique Brailsford or anybody at Sky – but when you hear talk of marginal gains, this is kind of what Armstrong used in the past. That brings up a little bit of sensitivity.

“When I hear that some teams have got some magical formula, sleeping better, it does make a difference. As a team directing the riders who are trying to recover, I understand that. But to say that is the reason for really high performance…it doesn’t make that much of a difference.”

So sky need to show with data these guys are the super naturally talented guys that they perform like, because the so called marginal gains is not making that much of a difference, according to LeMond.

LeMond is not calling Sky or Froome dopers, but is calling for transparency. It is hopeful..but Sky wont release the data to a truly independent source.

Apparently Brailsford is thinking about doing this tomorrow?

If Sky did this and all it does is support their argument of being clean, will this actually change the opinion of anyone who believes that they are doping? Doubt it

Brailsford needs to be able to show the data is Froomes and not tampered with. You know the ol machine calibration error...... Also needs to release the vo2max Froome did at UCI, also release pre '11 Vuelta data.

Then let the sports scientists at it.

But whatever will be released will not tell the story, it will be to say, we released the data and still it wasn't enough.....

If Froome was this naturally talented and clean they would've done this after 2013 TdF win.

Take that as a no

To be honest I would expect his VO2 to be much higher than pre 2011 Vuelta. 1) He had that parasite disease that affected him all 2011, which as we don't hear about it anymore I presume is gone. 2) Now he's a GC contender his training will have undoubtedly improved/increased 3) He now has several years of racing for wins in grand tours under his belt

This is what Lemond said RE V02: “I took 6.4 litres in [as a pro],” he said, by way of example. “I did a VO2 Max test at 47 [years of age] and I take 6.4 litres in."

 

[Benotti69]

Brailsford told French TV that Froome does not get weighed every day, "not this morning for example", yet Sky nutrionist Nigel Mitchell told cycling weekly "in Grand Tours the doctor weighs riders every morning and they supply a urine sample......That gives us a day to day picture and if we see signs of dehydration we push their fluids a bit more".

So a guy who is at what looks beyond the absolute limit of a healthy person in weight terms would of course be weighed every morning. Especially competing in a 3 week grand tour in summer!!!!

Brailsford lying, again.

 

[keeponrollin]

Re: Re:

LeMond is saying Sky need to release the data for transparency and that it all sounds a bit Armstrong..........

LeMond said that he would like to see the individuals in the sport offering up more data, with VO2 Max – a measure of maximal oxygen capacity – one of the most important.

Interestingly, Nairo Quintana's published his VO2Max. Froome has allegedly never done a test.

NO STONE LEFT UNTURNED.

Interesting how LeMond places huge emphasis on Vo2max and JVs team no longer test for it (well according to JV)....

Maybe Vo2max is only relevant to clean riders.......

Funny that, after I was diagnosed as an asthmatic, my Doc always did VO2 Max checks

I think Dawg should get himself a better MD !

 

[gazr99]

Re: Re:

Sky are around for how long? They have had plenty of time to be transparent. That LeMond is finally calling the Sky talk as similar to what Armstrong used to use tells us that Sky did not reinvent the wheel and that they are being backed into a corner now, becuase of a guy who had a disease that the team did not know about, his blood values were not abnormal even though he had a blood disease and he could barely finish GTs or get decent results, was being offered to Bruyneel, who refused then podiums a GT.

It would be very interesting to compare his vo2max from diseased rider to 'clean' GT winning rider and see if that explains it. But somehow i think if it did, they would have released it by now.

All Normal for pro cycling........which points to doping.

So i take it your a sky fan.....

Yes I'm a Sky fan but agree with the fact they should be more transparent, like all the world tour teams. If all tour teams used an independent authority to look at the data and stats, no one could moan (as much)

The point is though Sky could release the data tomorrow and majority of doubters wouldn't change their mind any way.

 

[gazr99]

Re: Re:

This is what Lemond said RE V02: “I took 6.4 litres in [as a pro],” he said, by way of example. “I did a VO2 Max test at 47 [years of age] and I take 6.4 litres in."

Really? He should carry on racing then

 

[Saint Unix]

Re: Re:

This is what Lemond said RE V02: “I took 6.4 litres in [as a pro],” he said, by way of example. “I did a VO2 Max test at 47 [years of age] and I take 6.4 litres in."

Froome would certainly score higher than in 2011, since he has shed an unhealty amount of body weight since his Henderson-pushing days, and body weight affects the score.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Re: Re:

Grappe is the guy who said Armstrong was clean.

I don't understand what you mean. You think he's exaggerating Pinot's power? There's no way he could match Froomtoux. Is there?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Yes I'm a Sky fan but agree with the fact they should be more transparent, like all the world tour teams. If all tour teams used an independent authority to look at the data and stats, no one could moan (as much)

The point is though Sky could release the data tomorrow and majority of doubters wouldn't change their mind any way.

All the other teams did not go to the extents of sky to push the "we are clean". "we have a zero tolerance doping policy", "we are different from others", "we are more professional", "we train harder", then get caught hiring dopers, doping doctors, ex dopers, and i don't really think anyone thinks Contador is racing clean, nor Nibali, definitely not Valverde or BMC(ex Phonak & Landis)....

This is very easy (if clean) for Sky. Release the data to prove that their riders are the best in the world and Froome is the best cyclist ever in the history of the sport.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Grappe is the guy who said Armstrong was clean.

I don't understand what you mean. You think he's exaggerating Pinot's power? There's no way he could match Froomtoux. Is there?

I dont believe Grappe.

 

[harryh]

Re: Re:

This is what Lemond said RE V02: “I took 6.4 litres in [as a pro],” he said, by way of example. “I did a VO2 Max test at 47 [years of age] and I take 6.4 litres in."

He's lying. It is well known that there is 10% per decade decline in VO(2max) in men and women regardless of activity level.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12974656

 

[BYOP88]

Re: Re:

This is what Lemond said RE V02: “I took 6.4 litres in [as a pro],” he said, by way of example. “I did a VO2 Max test at 47 [years of age] and I take 6.4 litres in."

Froome would certainly score higher than in 2011, since he has shed an unhealty amount of body weight since his Henderson-pushing days, and body weight affects the score.

This is what he said:

“I took 6.4 litres in [as a pro],” he said, by way of example. “I did a VO2 Max test at 47 [years of age] and I take 6.4 litres in. My weight is way different". but when I saw my wattage output after four months [training], I was 380 watts sustainable for 30 minutes. It kind of matched.

“I know exactly where I was 15, 20 years ago…It doesn’t really change. Now what would change it is blood doping, that could artificially boost the VO2 Max. If your haematocrit is 45 and you boost it to 50, you can improve it quite a bit. Because of that, you have to combine [VO2 Max] testing with the passport.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/07/tour-de-france-lemond-repeats-calls-for-greater-transparency-in-the-sport/

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Re: Re:

Grappe is the guy who said Armstrong was clean.

I don't understand what you mean. You think he's exaggerating Pinot's power? There's no way he could match Froomtoux. Is there?

I dont believe Grappe.

Pretty damaging for Pinot if his coach puts him in the mutant category with Froome. I wonder why Vayer hasn't said anything. Probably can't get Pinot's data.

 

[rainman]

Re: Re:

as we don't hear about it anymore I presume is gone.

Huge laughs. Its the way you tell them. The mystery asthma which know one knew about before also seems to have gone. At least we dont see the magic asthma puffer lately. Saving it for Alpe d'huez perhaps?

 

[Saint Unix]

Re: Re:

First mountain stage, right after the first rest day, pan flat until PSM. So more like a well paced mountain TTT/ITT, assisted by Movistar, where Froome pulled last ~15 mins. Yes, impressive but not extraordinary IMO.

The last time anyone was close to 6,3W/kg on a 40+ minute climb was Rasmussen on Aubisque in 2007.

The last time anyone was close to 6,3W/kg on a 40+ minute climb while riding clean was never.

 

[keeponrollin]

Re: Re:

Yes I'm a Sky fan but agree with the fact they should be more transparent, like all the world tour teams. If all tour teams used an independent authority to look at the data and stats, no one could moan (as much)

The point is though Sky could release the data tomorrow and majority of doubters wouldn't change their mind any way.

Of course they wouldn't, & for very good reason. In the US they call it 'Chain of Evidence'; without context, & confidence that the evidence is as it is presented, who would ?

Data disclosure is only worthwhile, if it is realtime & across a broad section of peleton, so that real comparisons can be made.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

I would say a GC rider on top form (Froome, Contador, Quintana, Nibali), sitting in the wheels until the last 20 minutes could do that. He had what one big acceleration then rode tempo up the climb.

Based it on this http://www.fredericgrappe.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/pinot-ppr.pdf

If you see Froome as a superior climber to 2013 Pinot, it's easy to see 6.3 as possible

Thanks, makes sense. We are talking about a 40 minute climb though. My feeling is that this is at the edge or over what's humanly possible, if you don't take fatigue, weather conditions, how the stage was raced, and assume a rider at the very end of the human scale.

Froome was not that rider pre-Vuelta 2011, so it's not possible in my view that he's that rider on the end of the scale. He was a rider with no contract and wasn't even selected for the race, initially. He was a scrub.

And since you need to take fatigue, stage tactics, weather etc. into consideration, I don't see how it's possible for anyone...clean.

It's possible for a human called Thibaud Pinot. But not one called Chris Froome. Is that what you are saying?

I didn't say that, so no, that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying it's not possible clean. Applies to anyone. Maybe if we thought the person in the discussion was some kind of once-in-a-generation freak, it might be possible. I thought that was pretty clear.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Re: Re:

First mountain stage, right after the first rest day, pan flat until PSM. So more like a well paced mountain TTT/ITT, assisted by Movistar, where Froome pulled last ~15 mins. Yes, impressive but not extraordinary IMO.

The last time anyone was close to 6,3W/kg on a 40+ minute climb was Rasmussen on Aubisque in 2007.

The last time anyone was close to 6,3W/kg on a 40+ minute climb while riding clean was never.

Since we have what purports to be the real data, rather than as estimate, what are your views on Froome's Ventoux power?

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Re: Re:

I didn't say that, so no, that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying it's not possible clean. Applies to anyone. Maybe if we thought the person in the discussion was some kind of once-in-a-generation freak, it might be possible. I thought that was pretty clear.

Was Froome on Ventoux possible clean?

 

[mrhender]

http://www.skysports.com/cycling/news/12040/9919196/tour-de-france-team-sky-to-release-chris-froomes-power-data

Team Sky are planning to release part of Chris Froome's power data as they seek to end doping suspicions surrounding the Tour de France leader.

Froome attracted negative headlines when he destroyed his rivals in the first mountain stage of the Tour last Tuesday and the Briton then said he had urine thrown at him by an abusive spectator on Saturday as the vitriol spread to the crowds.

Froome faced similar accusations on his way to winning the 2013 Tour and Team Sky responded at the time by offering the 30-year-old’s power data to anti-doping authorities.
Now, Team Sky principal Sir Dave Brailsford is willing to once again release Froome’s numbers in a renewed bid to prove he is riding clean.

Speaking after Monday’s 16th stage, Brailsford said: "We faced the same questions last time around. We had agreed to give our power data to UK Anti-Doping and the CADF [Cycling Anti-Doping Foundation].

"The CADF didn't want it, UK Anti-Doping had it but I don't think they did anything with it, but we were willing to give it to an independent body and we could do the same again.

"And I think we will have a look at it tonight and, for the rest day [on Tuesday], we will just release an average cadence, average power."

Froome leads Colombian Nairo Quintana by 3min 10sec, with American Tejay van Garderen a further 22 seconds off the pace in third place.

Asked if he minded Team Sky sharing his data, Froome said: "It's the intellectual property of the team and if they are happy to give it out, of course, I support that. No problem."

However, he questioned why he was under tighter scrutiny than previous grand tour winners.

Froome added: "If you look at the last five grand tours that have been won by different teams, different riders, there has not been the same outcry for power data and numbers.".

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

I didn't say that, so no, that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying it's not possible clean. Applies to anyone. Maybe if we thought the person in the discussion was some kind of once-in-a-generation freak, it might be possible. I thought that was pretty clear.

Was Froome on Ventoux possible clean?

I don't think Froome is clean, and I don't think he was clean on Ventoux. No, I don't think Froome could have done what he did on Ventoux clean. I don't equate "humanly possible" with what we see in the Tour for reasons stated above, and am fairly weary of the silliness of that particular line of discussion. Even if something is "humanly possible" it's still incredibly unlikely to happen in a race with all the factors of accumulated fatigue, tactics, etc., never mind that "humanly possible" includes just about every doped performance we've ever seen.

Maybe if you have some thoughts of your own, you could share. Last couple posts feel more like you're trying to parse my posts for some kind of hole, than have a discussion. Certainly open to/interested in the latter.

 

[bewildered]

Do people just assume Pinot is clean and/or that Grappe is an excellent judge of cleanliness? LOL

Jalabert and Rasmussen know what it takes to transform into a climber, they know it better than any clean rider. Some might say they are experts in that regard, been there, done it got the t-shirt. And Jalabert said that the time gaps were verging on the ridiculous, not that Froome was verging on the ridiculous, but he should have clarified that with Rendell instead of denying that he said that. IMO he chose his words carefully because he had to, he was on the record and has a responsibility to the broadcaster. The fact that they go straight for the throat says a lot. Perhaps ITV don't want to get into an honest discussion about what was said, their viewers certainly don't want to hear it.

But a la Armstrong, ignore their messages and go for the messenger. Media assassinate and aim as a priority to discredit him. Millar is in the same boat as Jalabert but he's OK. The parallels with the Armstrong/US Postal years just get more and more uncanny by the day.

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

Do people just assume Pinot is clean and/or that Grappe is an excellent judge of cleanliness? LOL

Jalabert and Rasmussen know what it takes to transform into a climber, they know it better than any clean rider. Some might say they are experts in that regard, been there, done it got the t-shirt. And Jalabert said that the time gaps were verging on the ridiculous, not that Froome was verging on the ridiculous, but he should have clarified that with Rendell instead of denying that he said that. IMO he chose his words carefully because he had to, he was on the record and has a responsibility to the broadcaster. The fact that they go straight for the throat says a lot. Perhaps ITV don't want to get into an honest discussion about what was said, their viewers certainly don't want to hear it.

But a la Armstrong, ignore their messages and go for the messenger. Media assassinate and aim as a priority to discredit him. Millar is in the same boat as Jalabert but he's OK. The parallels with the Armstrong/US Postal years just get more and more uncanny by the day.

Bingo. Solid take.

 

[BYOP88]

Re:

http://www.skysports.com/cycling/news/12040/9919196/tour-de-france-team-sky-to-release-chris-froomes-power-data

Team Sky are planning to release part of Chris Froome's power data as they seek to end doping suspicions surrounding the Tour de France leader.

Froome attracted negative headlines when he destroyed his rivals in the first mountain stage of the Tour last Tuesday and the Briton then said he had urine thrown at him by an abusive spectator on Saturday as the vitriol spread to the crowds.

Froome faced similar accusations on his way to winning the 2013 Tour and Team Sky responded at the time by offering the 30-year-old’s power data to anti-doping authorities.
Now, Team Sky principal Sir Dave Brailsford is willing to once again release Froome’s numbers in a renewed bid to prove he is riding clean.

Speaking after Monday’s 16th stage, Brailsford said: "We faced the same questions last time around. We had agreed to give our power data to UK Anti-Doping and the CADF [Cycling Anti-Doping Foundation].

"The CADF didn't want it, UK Anti-Doping had it but I don't think they did anything with it, but we were willing to give it to an independent body and we could do the same again.

"And I think we will have a look at it tonight and, for the rest day [on Tuesday], we will just release an average cadence, average power."

Froome leads Colombian Nairo Quintana by 3min 10sec, with American Tejay van Garderen a further 22 seconds off the pace in third place.

Asked if he minded Team Sky sharing his data, Froome said: "It's the intellectual property of the team and if they are happy to give it out, of course, I support that. No problem."

However, he questioned why he was under tighter scrutiny than previous grand tour winners.

Froome added: "If you look at the last five grand tours that have been won by different teams, different riders, there has not been the same outcry for power data and numbers.".

The key word there though is part of his data. It would be like buying a 1,000 piece puzzle and the makers of said puzzle have only given you 250 pieces.

 

[Saint Unix]

Re: Re:

Since we have what purports to be the real data, rather than as estimate, what are your views on Froome's Ventoux power?

If clean, it's the best ride of all time up Ventoux without a shadow of a doubt. I don't believe Froome to be the guy to do something like that. If he was, he'd have shown it earlier.

His W/kg is around what Grappe says Pinot *can* do, but you need to factor in that Froome didn't ride tempo up Ventoux. He put in multiple devastating attacks on Contador and Quintana that put him in the red, and thus his power output should be lowered compared to a controlled effort.

I also think Pinot is infinitely more naturally talented than Froome, but that's a different story altogether.

 

[Lyon]

Sky will do what the Norwegian cross-country federation did - release data no one asked about, saying that this explains everything about the data that was asked about but which they refused to release.