Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Benotti69]

Why did Jeroen Swart not read Grappe's analysis? It was big news at the time?

But it seems Kerrison is a beard.

Froome's transformation was massive and it appears has remained consistent since. That needs some explaining. The brakes were rubbing.....

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Citing Froome's supposed lack of tactical awareness as a reason for his lack of results during the 2007-2011 period is an indication of just how implausible Froome's transformation was. It is a good example of clutching at straws in an attempt to explain the extremely improbable.

Or a profound cluelessness about racing tactics, or a willingness to ignore the simple facts you've outlined. Truly amazing anyone buys this tripe.

Do tactics help? Of course. Do they make the difference between a mid-pack rider and a completely dominant GT winner. Of course not. One has to be willfully blind not to understand this.

Its funny how during sky tours a lot of the sky superfans rely entirely on a "but you don't understand tactics" message.

I just ask them to enlighten me on what Froome should have been doing

 

[mrhender]

A thing I take notice from is a continuous distance between Froome and his team.

This is particularly the case with PR and the press in general.

Around and in doing the Tour there's a lot of comments from Brailsford regarding Froome but away from that he (froome) seems to be running his own show.

Michelle Cound told me on twitter (before she nuked her account again) that she is running all media inquiries to Froome and even answers on his behalf. She also told me that Sky pass on media requests to her when "appropriate".

Froome also being doctored in Monace by the somewhat dubious Dr. Bermon is also conveniently adding to the distance.

I think this whole arrangement is understandable for the Team because if he someday should get the axe, Brailsford can claim ignorance to some extent.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re:

I think this whole arrangement is understandable for the Team because if he someday should get the axe, Brailsford can claim ignorance to some extent.

I concur, Brailsford went all in with the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0beVDVoPGa0

Dave was there when the myth was created, maybe he even did it himself.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

I did not say French was a real language. But the claim for famous is more PR.

The French, a whole nation now, have antagonism for Froome! Since when. More Sky propaganda!

What's whether it's famous or PR got to do with anything ? The bloke said Froome had a high VO2 max without much high level training back in 2007. Must hard to take I know.

Yeah, he could have had 7 TdFs by now. I am gutted, truly. I mean he had a Hinault high VO2 max. A guy would remember that number for the rest of his life, to be compared at such a young age to a 5 time winner of the TdF, you'd never forget what your vo2max was.

He should certainly have 3 (2012) - and could well have 4 (2014 - we'll never know)

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Michelle Cound told me on twitter (before she nuked her account again) that she is running all media inquiries to Froome and even answers on his behalf. She also told me that Sky pass on media requests to her when "appropriate".

So that's explains why Froome was spotted out on his bike while he was also answering questions on twitter in a Q&A

 

[Semper Fidelis]

since the prediction on V02 was locked up.

I'm going to say 85

not above 89

 

[Digger]

Re: Re:

Michelle Cound told me on twitter (before she nuked her account again) that she is running all media inquiries to Froome and even answers on his behalf. She also told me that Sky pass on media requests to her when "appropriate".

So that's explains why Froome was spotted out on his bike while he was also answering questions on twitter in a Q&A

hold on - that means the froomes are dishonest - who'd have thought

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

A thing I take notice from is a continuous distance between Froome and his team.

This is particularly the case with PR and the press in general.

Around and in doing the Tour there's a lot of comments from Brailsford regarding Froome but away from that he (froome) seems to be running his own show.

Michelle Cound told me on twitter (before she nuked her account again) that she is running all media inquiries to Froome and even answers on his behalf. She also told me that Sky pass on media requests to her when "appropriate".

Froome also being doctored in Monace by the somewhat dubious Dr. Bermon is also conveniently adding to the distance.

I think this whole arrangement is understandable for the Team because if he someday should get the axe, Brailsford can claim ignorance to some extent.

I also think it's understandable because IMO he started whatever program he's on independent of the team. They were as surprised as anyone by his stunning form in the 2011 Vuelta, as evidenced by all the comments leading up to and during the race, as well as the team selection and tactics. No way they thought he was on a full program. They had no interest at all in him being "the guy" then, as it was all in for Wiggo leading up to London 2012.

If he ever burns they'll turn on him faster than they did on Wiggo himself.

 

[Digger]

Re: Re:

A thing I take notice from is a continuous distance between Froome and his team.

This is particularly the case with PR and the press in general.

Around and in doing the Tour there's a lot of comments from Brailsford regarding Froome but away from that he (froome) seems to be running his own show.

Michelle Cound told me on twitter (before she nuked her account again) that she is running all media inquiries to Froome and even answers on his behalf. She also told me that Sky pass on media requests to her when "appropriate".

Froome also being doctored in Monace by the somewhat dubious Dr. Bermon is also conveniently adding to the distance.

I think this whole arrangement is understandable for the Team because if he someday should get the axe, Brailsford can claim ignorance to some extent.

I also think it's understandable because IMO he started whatever program he's on independent of the team. They were as surprised as anyone by his stunning form in the 2011 Vuelta, as evidenced by all the comments leading up to and during the race, as well as the team selection and tactics. No way they thought he was on a full program. They had no interest at all in him being "the guy" then, as it was all in for Wiggo leading up to London 2012.

If he ever burns they'll turn on him faster than they did on Wiggo himself.

This - he flew solo but then they had quite a decision to make after that vuelta - and no I don't believe there is team wide doping going on anymore. I totally accept that. But what I have been told, not about sky, is that it's still the same, just more secretive and cut throat - guys are flying solo regarding their doping.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Michelle Cound told me on twitter (before she nuked her account again) that she is running all media inquiries to Froome and even answers on his behalf. She also told me that Sky pass on media requests to her when "appropriate".

So that's explains why Froome was spotted out on his bike while he was also answering questions on twitter in a Q&A

Really?

You have a link for this?

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

This - he flew solo but then they had quite a decision to make after that vuelta - and no I don't believe there is team wide doping going on anymore. I totally accept that. But what I have been told, not about sky, is that it's still the same, just more secretive and cut throat - guys are flying solo regarding their doping.

I tend to agree, but I would also say that the teams are actively engaged in defensive PR and support for riders who are doping. It is expected and if not expected, it's supported. Plausible deniability is sought by the teams. They know what's going on, and are either putting pressure on riders to dope or enabling it in the best ways they can while mitigating risk and exposure for the team and sponsors. At the very least.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Michelle Cound told me on twitter (before she nuked her account again) that she is running all media inquiries to Froome and even answers on his behalf. She also told me that Sky pass on media requests to her when "appropriate".

So that's explains why Froome was spotted out on his bike while he was also answering questions on twitter in a Q&A

Really?

You have a link for this?

Sorry, no, it was on twitter.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re:

A thing I take notice from is a continuous distance between Froome and his team.

Around and in doing the Tour there's a lot of comments from Brailsford regarding Froome but away from that he (froome) seems to be running his own show.

Michelle Cound told me on twitter (before she nuked her account again) that she is running all media inquiries to Froome and even answers on his behalf. She also told me that Sky pass on media requests to her when "appropriate".

Maybe someone has a screen shot or some other evidence, but before this last nuking of her account, she clearly stated that Froome's testing and test results were being done completely out of the reach of Brailsford. This was brought up as a defensive tactic against those inquiring minds that were questioning the lack of a definitive answers from Brailsford regarding the release of Froome's test results.

"Dave wouldn't know," was her argument. Which struck me as most odd.

This was all part of a testy Twitter exchange between Michelle, Kimmage, and one other party (who I can't seem to remember at the moment). With her recent account being deleted, I can't seem to find any record of this anymore, but I'm sure others can corroborate (especially Kimmage himself, if anyone wants to ask him).

*Edit*
The BBC's Matt Slater was the other person involved in the conversation. It was on Nov 6th & 7th, but Michelle's side is no longer visible.
https://twitter.com/mattslaterbbc/with_replies

https://twitter.com/mattslaterbbc/status/662945263980584960

*2nd Edit*
Some things never leave the internet.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c.../662917009919877120+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Matt Slater ‏@mattslaterbbc
@michellefroome @PaulKimmage what? We came to Monaco to ask you? And I'd asked you before we came. I asked DB at ToB.

Michelle Froome ‏@michellefroome
@mattslaterbbc @PaulKimmage Team Sky weren't involved in the testing at all...Dave wouldn't know.

*3rd Edit*
I just keep digging stuff up.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c.../662900478120955904+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Follow

Michelle Froome@michellefroome
@mattslaterbbc @PaulKimmage you should both be ashamed of yourselves calling yourselves "journalists" putting on this pathetic spectacle.
11:52 PM - 6 Nov 2015

Matt Slater ‏@mattslaterbbc
@michellefroome @PaulKimmage what have I done this time? Seriously, this is getting very tiresome. Why do you think Paul is criticising me?

 

[LaFlorecita]

The Great One's opinion on Froome releasing test results;

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/16/chris-froome-test-results-alberto-contador-team-sky?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Team Sky’s ‘hermetic’ approach does not help, Spaniard adds ‘Maybe people dislike this way of working’

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

I dont see where I am smearing a messenger while I am the one being factuous.

You made the false claim that Dr. Swart had never heard of Grappe with the clear insinuation that he might not be qualified to be carrying out the study. The whole twitter exchange demonstrates that Dr. Swart did not read the publication by Dr. Grappe until very recently. That is something entirely different from what you originally stated and is a false reporting of the facts.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

The Great One's opinion on Froome releasing test results;

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/16/chris-froome-test-results-alberto-contador-team-sky?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Team Sky’s ‘hermetic’ approach does not help, Spaniard adds ‘Maybe people dislike this way of working’

Yes Flo, but in a way Alberto also implies that CF is clean:

“With the system of anti-doping control we now have and the quantity of those tests for the top riders it is impossible to cheat,” he said. “If you do it’s like a suicide. I’ve no doubt this is why it’s clean at the very highest level.”

 

[Benotti69]

So Bertie thinks it is clean at the highest level, but the lowest is a cesspit? hmm that does not compute! Roche said something similar in 1990.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I would not trust Alberto on doping related topics OMERTA

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

I dont see where I am smearing a messenger while I am the one being factuous.

You made the false claim that Dr. Swart had never heard of Grappe with the clear insinuation that he might not be qualified to be carrying out the study. The whole twitter exchange demonstrates that Dr. Swart did not read the publication by Dr. Grappe until very recently. That is something entirely different from what you originally stated and is a false reporting of the facts.

Wow, you really got me there.

Incredible line of stawman conclusions there, chapeau.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

Wow, you really got me there.

Incredible line of stawman conclusions there, chapeau.

So, be a gentleman and let us know what you meant by saying that he never heard of Grappe. Cheers....

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

How does your approach differ? Would you change your mind if pre-11 data showed he was talented? If not, then what more would you need?

my approach differs because it follows logic and common sense.

of course I won't change my mind. The vast amount of evidence still says Froome is doping. Sky doing a little PR-exercise isn't going to magically make the evidence that he is doping go away.

And no, I'm not going to believe he was a talent even if the numbers say so. The evidence still says he was not a big talent when you look at his results and the way he was treated on the teams he rode on.

Asking me what is going to change my mind is like saying "what can I do to make you believe pigs can fly"

No its not. You say the evidence says he was not a big talent, but you want to see the pre-11 data. If the pre-11 data shows he did have a big engine (you know 5.7w/kg or more) wouldnt that be 'evidence' that he was a big talent? If not, why not?

Not sure you have a handle on what the numbers actually mean. 5.7w/kg on its own is meaningless. It also doesn't show if one is doping or not as they may have microdosed the night before the test.

You need to know the length of time the value was held, the riders weight at the time and the gradient (if any) of the climb.

A proper FTP test is for one hour, generally most do 20 minutes, normalise to an hour then drop 5% for fatigue.

If Froome was holding 5.7w/kg for one hour FTP test in 2007 at 70kg's then he would have been winning just about every race he was in.

You also don't appear to have a grip on the value in relation to weight;

2007 @ 70kg – 5.7w/kg = 399w avg

No way Froome was producing 400w average power in 2007 for one hour. He'd be winning TT's not falling off his bike or pushing Greg Henderson.

In 2012 at Salamanca Froome for a one hour TT produced 406w avg. You're suggesting that he was doing that in 2007!

Froome averaged 5.8w/kg at 406W for nearly an hour! He paced the event to perfection as the first half had a total altitude gain of 219m and he averaged 414w, versus the second half where the course had a total elevation gain of only 86m and he averaged 398w. There were certainly riders who started the time trial too hard and suffered in the final 20km where Froome ended up gaining ground.

This is the ideal test of one’s true capabilities at what is termed Functional Threshold Power (FTP). A cyclist’s FTP is the average watts they can maintain for a 60-minute effort. Given the fact that Froome’s 47km time trial took him 57 minutes we can easily conclude that his FTP equals a tad more than 400w.

The facts show that on PSM at this year's Tour he did 6.1w/kg for one hour (or just below) on a 10% gradient. Which is utterly insane even for a one off FTP test. Froome performed it 120km into a stage in week 2 of the Tour.



http://www.skysports.com/cycling/news/20192/7452102/froome-trainingpeaks-analysis

 

[red_flanders]

Wow, Hoggie! One of your best posts in a while. Nicely done.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

Wow, Hoggie! One of your best posts in a while. Nicely done.

This^^^

 

[thehog]

Re:

Wow, Hoggie! One of your best posts in a while. Nicely done.

Thank you.

Froome effectively did an FTP test at the Commonwealth Games in 2006. If he was the big engine that Spud and Froome/Walsh et al claim that he might have been, he would have ridden a lot faster for 40km back in 2006. He rode just about an hour for 40km. He simply doesn't haven't a big engine. It doesn't take a secret lab test to prove that he did, he just doesn't have one.

Kenyan Christopher Froome stopped the clock in 53.58.01 for 40km.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/mar06/commgames06/?id=results/men_road_tt