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Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

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Apr 3, 2011
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In this "data" business, all that puzzles me is why the heck are they doing this? It won't help them at all, certainly not in the eyes of sceptic fans, and the impact of this publicity stunt for the general public will be minuscule (people don't undersand the details, and mostly don't even care).

On the other hand, imagine Astana/Tinkoff /Movistar come next year with some undetectable new juice that gives you extra 10+%, so, say 6.5W/kg now becomes mainstream among good climbers and the top will go even a bit higher.

Now what? They will have to juice up as well, and become the obvious target, as everyone will compare the new Tour winning standard of, say, 6.8 to Vroome's published 6.1 (exact number not that important for the sake of argument), and will demand a lab test comparison.

Now, knowing Brailsford & co. are not stupid, they must be very well aware of this trap. They must be damn sure something like this simply won't happen. They know they are the best under the current biopass system that actually protects them, because trying any radically new and too powerful stuff would likely trigger the passport alarm even if otherwise undetectable. Or they are protected also from other sides, who knows...

So, this whole testing story is not so much about the past, but rather about the future. Basically a demonstration of power in an arms race called cycling - something like this russian 500megaton czar bomb: here you have it, beat this. And be sure you won't beat us in the future.
 
doperhopper said:
In this "data" business, all that puzzles me is why the heck are they doing this? It won't help them at all, certainly not in the eyes of sceptic fans, and the impact of this publicity stunt for the general public will be minuscule (people don't undersand the details, and mostly don't even care).

On the other hand, imagine Astana/Tinkoff /Movistar come next year with some undetectable new juice that gives you extra 10+%, so, say 6.5W/kg now becomes mainstream among good climbers and the top will go even a bit higher.

Now what? They will have to juice up as well, and become the obvious target, as everyone will compare the new Tour winning standard of, say, 6.8 to Vroome's published 6.1 (exact number not that important for the sake of argument), and will demand a lab test comparison.

Now, knowing Brailsford & co. are not stupid, they must be very well aware of this trap. They must be damn sure something like this simply won't happen. They know they are the best under the current biopass system that actually protects them, because trying any radically new and too powerful stuff would likely trigger the passport alarm even if otherwise undetectable. Or they are protected also from other sides, who knows...

So, this whole testing story is not so much about the past, but rather about the future. Basically a demonstration of power in an arms race called cycling - something like this russian 500megaton czar bomb: here you have it, beat this. And be sure you won't beat us in the future.

its obvious...Froome has been overtraining...even going as far as turning off his power meter to fool the ever vigilant Sky coaches...bam...there's your 0.6 there...undertraining is the new overtraining.....well that and starting to eat nutella again...nutella is the new no nutella...(stop this. Ed)
 
Re: Re:

del1962 said:
irondan said:
Savant12 said:
Catwhoorg said:
Peer review is flawed for sure, my favorite example is the Wakefield/Lancet fraudulent paper.

It is still, however, the best method out there.

The best method surely is the Monty Python witch method.

Peasants: We have found a doper! (A doper! a doper!)
Burn him burn him!

Peasant 1: We have found a doper, may we burn him?
(cheers)
Vladimir: How do you know he is a doper?
P2: He looks like one!

There we go, problem solved! No need to wait for any that peer reviewed stuff because the jury's already spoken. Burn them all! The whole sport!

Peasant 1: Now that cycling's gone what can we watch?
Vladimir: Athletics? I hear the Russians are rather good.
P2: Athletics!
Your attempt to derail this discussion has not gone unnoticed.

Please take your trolling to another forum and let these members have their conversation without being interrupted by this silliness.

Dont understabd you reply here, seems like you don't like a different opinion, he ho, your a mod what can I say

to be fair Froome is not a young lass spotted with a black cat...he is wearing a black gown (that still allows the moons rays through), pointy hat (aero, as he's eventually gone to a witch/sorry wind tunnel), rides an italian broomstick and he has turned the whole peloton into frogs (or at least riders as slow as the frogs..geddit!!).....so a bit daft
 
Aug 31, 2012
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doperhopper said:
In this "data" business, all that puzzles me is why the heck are they doing this? It won't help them at all, certainly not in the eyes of sceptic fans, and the impact of this publicity stunt for the general public will be minuscule (people don't undersand the details, and mostly don't even care).

On the other hand, imagine Astana/Tinkoff /Movistar come next year with some undetectable new juice that gives you extra 10+%, so, say 6.5W/kg now becomes mainstream among good climbers and the top will go even a bit higher.

Now what? They will have to juice up as well, and become the obvious target, as everyone will compare the new Tour winning standard of, say, 6.8 to Vroome's published 6.1 (exact number not that important for the sake of argument), and will demand a lab test comparison.

Now, knowing Brailsford & co. are not stupid, they must be very well aware of this trap. They must be damn sure something like this simply won't happen. They know they are the best under the current biopass system that actually protects them, because trying any radically new and too powerful stuff would likely trigger the passport alarm even if otherwise undetectable. Or they are protected also from other sides, who knows...

So, this whole testing story is not so much about the past, but rather about the future. Basically a demonstration of power in an arms race called cycling - something like this russian 500megaton czar bomb: here you have it, beat this. And be sure you won't beat us in the future.

"Proof of my cleanliness has been published in a peer-reviewed journal!" is good PR even with a scientifically illiterate public.
 
Re: Re:

del1962 said:
irondan said:
Savant12 said:
Catwhoorg said:
Peer review is flawed for sure, my favorite example is the Wakefield/Lancet fraudulent paper.

It is still, however, the best method out there.

The best method surely is the Monty Python witch method.

Peasants: We have found a doper! (A doper! a doper!)
Burn him burn him!

Peasant 1: We have found a doper, may we burn him?
(cheers)
Vladimir: How do you know he is a doper?
P2: He looks like one!

There we go, problem solved! No need to wait for any that peer reviewed stuff because the jury's already spoken. Burn them all! The whole sport!

Peasant 1: Now that cycling's gone what can we watch?
Vladimir: Athletics? I hear the Russians are rather good.
P2: Athletics!
Your attempt to derail this discussion has not gone unnoticed.

Please take your trolling to another forum and let these members have their conversation without being interrupted by this silliness.

Dont understabd you reply here
Ok, I'll explain it for you.

Savant was trolling and irondan- a mod, gave him a warning for it.

Get it now? :)
 
Re:

Dear Wiggo said:
Yes yes Froome had a 5.8W/kg FTP, 85 VO2 max and 24% efficiency but couldn't ride to save himself. Coz reasons.

Good oh. Sounds sciencey enough for me.

Next.

Given your scientific analysis of Froome and with the results of "Coz reasons" can you elaborate further on your hypothesis of "couldn't ride to save himself"? Or shall we wait for some real scientists to analyse what they have been given [at this point we don't know all the details] and we we can comment on their findings at a later date?
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

Savant12 said:
Dear Wiggo said:
Yes yes Froome had a 5.8W/kg FTP, 85 VO2 max and 24% efficiency but couldn't ride to save himself. Coz reasons.

Good oh. Sounds sciencey enough for me.

Next.

Given your scientific analysis of Froome and with the results of "Coz reasons" can you elaborate further on your hypothesis of "couldn't ride to save himself"? Or shall we wait for some real scientists to analyse what they have been given [at this point we don't know all the details] and we we can comment on their findings at a later date?

"couldn't ride to save himself" = Brailsford asking Bruyneel did they want Froome?
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
Savant12 said:
Dear Wiggo said:
Yes yes Froome had a 5.8W/kg FTP, 85 VO2 max and 24% efficiency but couldn't ride to save himself. Coz reasons.

Good oh. Sounds sciencey enough for me.

Next.

Given your scientific analysis of Froome and with the results of "Coz reasons" can you elaborate further on your hypothesis of "couldn't ride to save himself"? Or shall we wait for some real scientists to analyse what they have been given [at this point we don't know all the details] and we we can comment on their findings at a later date?



"couldn't ride to save himself" = Brailsford asking Bruyneel did they want Froome?

or putting him bottom of the class....
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/inside-the-mind-of-dave-brailsford-2615
 
"The scientists involved have gone to lengths to ensure that the correct methodology was used during both the collection of the data and its analysis have [sic] therefore taken some time." That doesn't look so good now does it in light of the reports from WADA/IAAF?
 
Re: Re:

gillan1969 said:
Benotti69 said:
Savant12 said:
Dear Wiggo said:
Yes yes Froome had a 5.8W/kg FTP, 85 VO2 max and 24% efficiency but couldn't ride to save himself. Coz reasons.

Good oh. Sounds sciencey enough for me.

Next.

Given your scientific analysis of Froome and with the results of "Coz reasons" can you elaborate further on your hypothesis of "couldn't ride to save himself"? Or shall we wait for some real scientists to analyse what they have been given [at this point we don't know all the details] and we we can comment on their findings at a later date?



"couldn't ride to save himself" = Brailsford asking Bruyneel did they want Froome?

or putting him bottom of the class....
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/inside-the-mind-of-dave-brailsford-2615

Maybe, Shane Sutton saw something that DB didn't.
“Shane Sutton is the least ‘numbers’ person you’ll get. He will work with a rider and he’ll see something that we can’t see. He’ll spot something and we’ll go and have a proper look at it and he’ll be right. It’s as if he’s watching colour television and we’re watching black and white. He doesn’t get that from numbers."
 
Mar 18, 2009
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MTBrider said:
Anybody willing to bet what the numbers are?

I think:
Absolute Vo2: 6.0
Relative Vo2: 85-93 (depending on how fat he as when he took the test).

A couple of weeks ago I predicted 6.17 L/min, which if he weighs 68 kg, would be 90.8 mL/min/kg:

https://www.facebook.com/TrainingAndRacingWithAPowerMeter/posts/1109834679038829

This is based on the bits and pieces of power data already released, some additional assumptions, and a new prediction equation I've developed for WKO4.

No, I have not seen any physiological data for Froome.

ETA: And no, I don't really have any opinion on whether or not Froome has ever doped.
 
Re: Re:

Dear Wiggo said:
Merckx index said:
Some good posts here, esp. Electress’ comments. However, while I generally agree that one wouldn’t think analysis of a single rider’s data would be published as a journal article, the fact that he’s a two time TDF winner and considered currently the dominant GT rider in the world (sorry, Flor) might be used to justify that, just as Coyle published an entire paper just on LA. And obviously this works to Froome’s advantage, as having his data published in a peer-reviewed journal could be used as “proof” that the data are both valid and consistent with being clean. So when the Esquire article comes out, whatever negative reactions to it there may be, Froome can reply, “these data were thought good enough to be published in a peer-reviewed journal, when that comes out, you will see that all your criticisms are addressed.”

Exactly what I wrote

Dear Wiggo said:
Here's the main problem I have with the publishing of this data set in particular:

When something is peer reviewed it is in some sense blessed. Even journalists recognize this.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420798/

Good post, Dear Wiggo.

The person who wrote that article is not a journalist. He is an ex- journal editor. Shockingly, he thinks more power should go to the journal editor at the expense of peer reviewers when dealing with academic publishing. As noted yesterday, not really a good argument for changing the system.

Richard Smith was editor of the BMJ and chief executive of the BMJ Publishing Group for 13 years. In his last year at the journal he retreated to a 15th century palazzo in Venice to write a book. The book will be published by RSM Press [www.rsmpress.co.uk], and this is the second in a series of extracts that will be published in the JRSM.
 
Re: Re:

gillan1969 said:

DBgraph1.jpg

CF = Chris Froome (2011) i.e ProConti Podium
:confused: :eek: ;)
 
Mar 11, 2009
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The key is whether CF is placed where he is on the chart based on what Brailsford told to the journalists at the time or what they interpreted his position to be based on his unremarkable palmares. "This graph is our approximation of Brailsford's rider analysis" is pretty open-ended and the text of the article does not clarify the issue.
 
Re:

djpbaltimore said:
The key is whether CF is placed where he is on the chart based on what Brailsford told to the journalists at the time or what they interpreted his position to be based on his unremarkable palmares. "This graph is our approximation of Brailsford's rider analysis" is pretty open-ended and the text of the article does not clarify the issue.

yeah but Froome is bottom of the class....when he should have been top :) ..you don't get it that wrong and Brailsford and/or froome (although probably Cound via twitter) would have corrected us at the time...but hey that was all pre-transformation...before he became what we 'see' before us...
 
May 26, 2010
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All this testing Froome has done? Do Sky the masters of getting every last performance enhancement from 'clean' methods, ie marginal gains, not have all this data to hand on Froome as they strived to get every marginal gain out of him?

If not, why not? Sky telling lies.

Again, Froome needing to do these tests prove Sky/Froome are liars either way.
 
Re: Re:

Savant12 said:
gillan1969 said:
Benotti69 said:
Savant12 said:
Dear Wiggo said:
Yes yes Froome had a 5.8W/kg FTP, 85 VO2 max and 24% efficiency but couldn't ride to save himself. Coz reasons.

Good oh. Sounds sciencey enough for me.

Next.

Given your scientific analysis of Froome and with the results of "Coz reasons" can you elaborate further on your hypothesis of "couldn't ride to save himself"? Or shall we wait for some real scientists to analyse what they have been given [at this point we don't know all the details] and we we can comment on their findings at a later date?



"couldn't ride to save himself" = Brailsford asking Bruyneel did they want Froome?

or putting him bottom of the class....
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/inside-the-mind-of-dave-brailsford-2615

Maybe, Shane Sutton saw something that DB didn't.
“Shane Sutton is the least ‘numbers’ person you’ll get. He will work with a rider and he’ll see something that we can’t see. He’ll spot something and we’ll go and have a proper look at it and he’ll be right. It’s as if he’s watching colour television and we’re watching black and white. He doesn’t get that from numbers."

again...perhaps but then we would have heard about the genius of Sutton in September 2011...besides, what? he wasn't just bottom of the class based on numbers..he was bottom of the class based on everything...
 
Swart seems to be a well qualified standup exercise physiologist/scientist. I guess they should have got the other south african involved, although there is probably too much antagonism there. I don't know why he's bothered doing it, he won't change the doubters minds so it pretty pointless. He should just keep stum like the rest of them.
 
Re:

bigcog said:
Swart seems to be a well qualified standup exercise physiologist/scientist. I guess they should have got the other south african involved, although there is probably too much antagonism there. I don't know why he's bothered doing it, he won't change the doubters minds so it pretty pointless. He should just keep stum like the rest of them.

Perhaps explain why he is 'well qualified'?
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

Savant12 said:
Maybe, Shane Sutton saw something that DB didn't.
“Shane Sutton is the least ‘numbers’ person you’ll get. He will work with a rider and he’ll see something that we can’t see. He’ll spot something and we’ll go and have a proper look at it and he’ll be right. It’s as if he’s watching colour television and we’re watching black and white. He doesn’t get that from numbers."

Well if Sutton saw something, Sky failed to get that 'something' out what Sutton is alleged to have seen and were trying to offload Froome to Bruyneel. And Bruyneel said no thanks!

Froome was Sky's best cyclist from Vuelta'11 and yet Wiggins was team leader. Why was that? To cash in on Wiggins? Or Sky were not sure Froome's 'something ' would last?
 

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