Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

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Saint Unix said:
DFA123 said:
So you don't think it's possible that he has improved his aerodynamics considerably since that 2010 TT? Of course I'm not saying that is the sole reason for his transformation to become an elite TTist, but it is a factor imo.

After all, there are plenty of first class dopers who are horrendous TTers. There are other factors involved than just having a huge engine.
Of course it's possible, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that any gains he would have had from reducing drag (even with the help of a wind tunnel, which he didn't have) would have been negated by the power loss that comes naturally with that sort of weight loss.

ScienceIsCool has done the math and shown Froome to gain 15% more power on TTs. To attribute all of that to reduced drag and weight loss isn't possible. Focusing on circumstances that can at best be a partial explanation for his drastic and instant improvement is just smoke and mirrors to distract from the point of this particular thread in this particular forum, which is "Is Chris Froome doping?"

So to use a Coundism: Can "legal" gains explain Froome's improvement? Maybe to a small degree, but not fully.

Here's a point I do feel qualified to comment on....15% improvement in power when TT'ing is certainly believable. There's a real art to getting the TT position right, it's not all about getting aero and reducing drag. Push it too far and you will certainly be limiting the power you can put out.

Now I don't know what his set up was like at Barloworld, or how much it changed at Sky. But over the years I've seen many, many examples of riders achieving improvements in power of these kind of percentages and beyond simply by getting the position dialled in and with no improvement in fitness.

If someone said his power when climbing increased by 15% that would be an entirely different story.....again not one that even doping could explain.
 
Nov 7, 2010
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Saint Unix said:
DFA123 said:
So you don't think it's possible that he has improved his aerodynamics considerably since that 2010 TT? Of course I'm not saying that is the sole reason for his transformation to become an elite TTist, but it is a factor imo.

After all, there are plenty of first class dopers who are horrendous TTers. There are other factors involved than just having a huge engine.
Of course it's possible, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that any gains he would have had from reducing drag (even with the help of a wind tunnel, which he didn't have) would have been negated by the power loss that comes naturally with that sort of weight loss.

ScienceIsCool has done the math and shown Froome to gain 15% more power on TTs. To attribute all of that to reduced drag and weight loss isn't possible. Focusing on circumstances that can at best be a partial explanation for his drastic and instant improvement is just smoke and mirrors to distract from the point of this particular thread in this particular forum, which is "Is Chris Froome doping?"

So to use a Coundism: Can "legal" gains explain Froome's improvement? Maybe to a small degree, but not fully.
Completely agree with this. For me, by far the biggest question mark against Froome is how he maintained (maybe even increased) his power while losing weight. Doing that has been the holy grail of cycling for as long as I can remember. Losing weight naturally once you get to a certain level, has always had the consequence of losing power.

And we know there are drugs which can achieve this holy grail combo. So it doesn't take a genius to put 2+2 together here. The issue then is whether that alone, combined with some grey stuff like abuse of TUEs/sabutamol is enough to have elevated Froome to the level he is now.

I think this is very difficult to answer, because Froome's absolute numbers and climbing times are not at a level which suggests that blood doping is an absolute certainty - Armstrong/Pantani-esque. And given his upbringing in the sport, I think it's highly likely that there were a lot of non-doping factors he could improve significantly.

And, imo, blood doping or not is a huge distinction in how Froome should be perceived. It is the only thing that separates Armstrong and Merckx after all.
 
May 30, 2015
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worthwhile detail is that in the 2011 vuelta where froome put forward himself as a rising star of grand tours he was definately 4-5kg heavier than starting from 2012 to this day. he was looking closely to the pic RolltheDice posted. so extreme weight loss program started only in 2012 season. the core of the magic was implemented in july-august 2011, while in 2012-2013 Sky just sandpapered froome to the level of world beater.
 
Jul 29, 2016
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Benotti69 said:
DFA123 said:
Benotti69 said:
Anyone who claims the clinic as a single entity is full of it.
Nowhere have I claimed the clinic is a single entity. The Clinic s great, and with a wide range of opinions. I have simply noted my disdain for 'clinic-bots' (I think we all know who they are). The kind of posters who fail to acknowledge any factor influencing a cyclist or bike race, other than doping.

It just ends up in circular conversations heavy in cherry-picked examples and innuendo, with no room for nuance or shades of grey.


In the case of Froome, no there is no grey. In 2 weeks the guy went from pack fodder to GT podium. There are no nuances attained in those 2 weeks. From there he has been GT podium or crash with 6 GT wins (4Tdf, 1 Giro and 1 Vuelta) I mean that stratospheric rise at 26 is not nuanced in any manner. This guy was going to out of a job then BOOM, he would've won a GT if not for Wiggins. CRAZY. Nuance where, just **** where??????

I assume, that we can put together explanation of what happened in two weeks prior Vuelta 2011. We all probably agree that this was the time of unbelievable transformation. Froome was desperate since he was hitting possibly end of carrier at World Tour level. He was done as well as his living in Monaco.

If I remember correctly, it was MacKenna in his article mentioning that EPO is giving 8% advantage. Nice example of donkey to race horse transformation is Riis, Mr. 60%. In his case I would say, that the advantage was even higher, 10% (really high hematocrit). So what Froome most probably needed was to increase his performance by 10% in two weeks. Others are unable to reach such goal in years, hat off for Froome.

My opinion:

1. DNP - only drug which helps to loose 5 kg in week (10 days), deadly, dangerous. Typical for desperate people.
2. Microdosing of EPO and HGH (peptides).
3. New miracle drug AICAR or GW501516 or similar undetectable drug.
4. Tramadol.
5. Microdosing of TST.

Still unbelievable, but other only explanation is motor.

Or combination of both :).
 
Sep 27, 2017
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lartiste said:
Benotti69 said:
DFA123 said:
Benotti69 said:
Anyone who claims the clinic as a single entity is full of it.
Nowhere have I claimed the clinic is a single entity. The Clinic s great, and with a wide range of opinions. I have simply noted my disdain for 'clinic-bots' (I think we all know who they are). The kind of posters who fail to acknowledge any factor influencing a cyclist or bike race, other than doping.

It just ends up in circular conversations heavy in cherry-picked examples and innuendo, with no room for nuance or shades of grey.


In the case of Froome, no there is no grey. In 2 weeks the guy went from pack fodder to GT podium. There are no nuances attained in those 2 weeks. From there he has been GT podium or crash with 6 GT wins (4Tdf, 1 Giro and 1 Vuelta) I mean that stratospheric rise at 26 is not nuanced in any manner. This guy was going to out of a job then BOOM, he would've won a GT if not for Wiggins. CRAZY. Nuance where, just **** where??????

I assume, that we can put together explanation of what happened in two weeks prior Vuelta 2011. We all probably agree that this was the time of unbelievable transformation. Froome was desperate since he was hitting possibly end of carrier at World Tour level. He was done as well as his living in Monaco.

If I remember correctly, it was MacKenna in his article mentioning that EPO is giving 8% advantage. Nice example of donkey to race horse transformation is Riis, Mr. 60%. In his case I would say, that the advantage was even higher, 10% (really high hematocrit). So what Froome most probably needed was to increase his performance by 10% in two weeks. Others are unable to reach such goal in years, hat off for Froome.

My opinion:

1. DNP - only drug which helps to loose 5 kg in week (10 days), deadly, dangerous. Typical for desperate people.
2. Microdosing of EPO and HGH (peptides).
3. New miracle drug AICAR or GW501516 or similar undetectable drug.
4. Tramadol.
5. Microdosing of TST.

Still unbelievable, but other only explanation is motor.

Or combination of both :).

DNP??

Micro dosing HGH??

:lol: :lol: :lol:
 

thehog

BANNED
Jul 27, 2009
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DFA123 said:
Saint Unix said:
DFA123 said:
So you don't think it's possible that he has improved his aerodynamics considerably since that 2010 TT? Of course I'm not saying that is the sole reason for his transformation to become an elite TTist, but it is a factor imo.

After all, there are plenty of first class dopers who are horrendous TTers. There are other factors involved than just having a huge engine.
Of course it's possible, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that any gains he would have had from reducing drag (even with the help of a wind tunnel, which he didn't have) would have been negated by the power loss that comes naturally with that sort of weight loss.

ScienceIsCool has done the math and shown Froome to gain 15% more power on TTs. To attribute all of that to reduced drag and weight loss isn't possible. Focusing on circumstances that can at best be a partial explanation for his drastic and instant improvement is just smoke and mirrors to distract from the point of this particular thread in this particular forum, which is "Is Chris Froome doping?"

So to use a Coundism: Can "legal" gains explain Froome's improvement? Maybe to a small degree, but not fully.
Completely agree with this. For me, by far the biggest question mark against Froome is how he maintained (maybe even increased) his power while losing weight. Doing that has been the holy grail of cycling for as long as I can remember. Losing weight naturally once you get to a certain level, has always had the consequence of losing power.

And we know there are drugs which can achieve this holy grail combo. So it doesn't take a genius to put 2+2 together here. The issue then is whether that alone, combined with some grey stuff like abuse of TUEs/sabutamol is enough to have elevated Froome to the level he is now.

I think this is very difficult to answer, because Froome's absolute numbers and climbing times are not at a level which suggests that blood doping is an absolute certainty - Armstrong/Pantani-esque. And given his upbringing in the sport, I think it's highly likely that there were a lot of non-doping factors he could improve significantly.

And, imo, blood doping or not is a huge distinction in how Froome should be perceived. It is the only thing that separates Armstrong and Merckx after all.

Froome is most certainly at the level of Armstrong blood doping times on climbs. He has surpassed some if not most of Armstrongs climbing times. He hasn’t reached pre-50% hematocrit times of Pantani. But I think given the chance Froome could go near some of those times (d’Huez being one he could smash). I mean, heck, Froome is about to attempt the Giro / Tour double just like Pantani! :cool:
 
May 30, 2015
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Fantasy. Donkey rolleur on the verge of ending up on wt level couldnt have launched such complocated doping program.
 
Jul 29, 2016
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brownbobby said:
Micro dosing HGH??

:lol: :lol:

Did I mention micro dosing of HGH? Eventhough you have different protocols with big difference in units ;) . Do you know anything about the dosing protocols? And DNP? You do not know? May be try some bodybuilding board to understand the substance, it is real killer of bodyfat (sometimes also of the user). ;)


Edited by King Boonen: Quotes were wrongly attributed. Truncated.
 
Sep 27, 2017
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lartiste said:
Did I mention micro dosing of HGH? Eventhough you have different protocols with big difference in units ;) . Do you know anything about the dosing protocols? And DNP? You do not know? May be try some bodybuilding board to understand the substance, it is real killer of bodyfat (sometimes also of the user). ;)

I know plenty about DNP. You clearly don't.....It would be absolutely catastrophic for a cyclist to be using it for a 2 week period leading up to a race. That's why I found the suggestion so funny.

But apologies if you weren't actually suggesting microdosing of hgh....yes again I understand the protocols. Microdosing isn't done with HGH. Frequent small doses yes, but that isn't microdosing in the sense applied to say EPO.

Edited by King Boonen: Quotes were wrongly attributed. Truncated.
 
Sep 11, 2016
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Re: Re:

brownbobby said:
thehog said:
Libertine Seguros said:
Well, the problem is hyperbole. Even the most cynical people in this forum who describe Froome as having "zero talent" are meaning "relative to competition", in this case meaning the elite pro péloton. I'm not about to argue that he doesn't, or didn't, know how to ride a bike, even if his style of doing so may be among the ungainliest ever, along with the likes of Fernando Escartín, Juan Mauricio Soler and Francisco Mancebo, all of whom were great climbers. Soler was even the team leader at Froome's own team back in 2008-9.

Similarly, when we've looked at the performances and the power outputs, there has always been this debate over what's plausible, but it neglects the most important question, which is "is it plausible coming from that particular rider?" We can look at the climbing records on Mont Ventoux for an example. Nobody is going to argue away somebody matching Iban Mayo or Marco Pantani unassisted without serious cognitive dissonance, but at 58'31 you have David Moncoutié's best time, a rider who has been generally perceived as clean. Even if we add a bit to that, and say that there's a race with a summit finish on Mont Ventoux and the winning time is 1'00'00" on the money, if you have somebody like Marcel Kittel trail in at +1'00" it's going to raise eyebrows - a 61 minute ascent of Mont Ventoux is not in and of itself suspicious, it's a good 5 minutes slower than Iban Mayo's time from the Dauphiné, but if somebody like Marcel Kittel pulls it off, people are going to call BS, because that's quite simply not what Marcel Kittel is born to do (with apologies to Marcel, I just picked him as a pre-eminent sprinter who is known as a pure power guy, just for an extreme example).

Saint Unix has their list of the immediate success stories (there are many others you can add, take for example Darya Domracheva in the biathlon, competing as a youth she had to race against the boys, because she was regularly pasting the girls not only in her age group but in ALL age groups; Alejandro Valverde is always a good example to point to here because he's a rider nobody is going to call clean, but his indomitable record as a cadet which led to his "El Imbatido" nickname speaks for itself as to there being a special natural talent level from an early age also). Froome is something of an exception to that in that he didn't come to the sport via a traditional route, but nonetheless, it is worth noting that other late converts have been successful far more quickly - at the elite level there's Michael Woods, Primož Roglič and Richie Porte in recent years, for example (Porte came from triathlon so at least had some cycling background, but Woods came from distance running, and Roglič even came from a sport where explosivity is more important than endurance). But Froome didn't come to cycling with an established sporting background already there, nor did he come to the sport at a fully physically grown stage like them, so they're not fair direct comparisons either. Somebody like Bauke Mollema is a better comparison point, having taken up cycling at 19, and won the Tour de l'Avenir at 21. That stands in stark contrast to Froome's records from South African domestic events that was once publicised, which showed him not to have been especially out of the ordinary there either.

Nevertheless there must have been something there, including that vaunted "rough diamond" style that, once the inefficiencies were coached out of him, could reap dividends (strangely, there has not been any physical change in that style, other than the descending which he has markedly improved, but that's been only once he was already an established star, and not to do with his emergence), otherwise he wouldn't have found his way to the UCI World Cycling Centre or onto Barloworld - nevertheless Barloworld was, at the time, the only logical team for him to get onto that would have been able to ride at the top levels, and for all the attention paid to his performances in the final week of the 2008 Tour, he wasn't even the most promising young African climber at Barloworld, because while Froome did well to survive the break over the Croix de Fer and stay with Menchov for a bit after the Russian was dropped on Alpe d'Huez, he did get detached from the group just after Johan van Summeren (not exactly a vaunted climber) and he did finish 9 minutes behind the reigning Vuelta winner. Augustyn survived a strong break over the Col de la Lombarde and then was the strongest climber in it on the Col de la Bonette, cresting the highest peak in the race alone and he would have been in the position to win the stage had he not wiped out on the descent and lost his bike, which descended the Bonette to a fate unknown, much like Millar's legendary Contursi Terme bike throw that sent the bike rolling down the hillside over the barriers. But still, there were some performances there that suggested Froome had at least some talent to make it as a pro, if not a multiple Grand Tour winning one.

This is the problem - there's not linear progress with Froome that means we can answer the question "is it plausible coming from him?" with any degree of certainty at all. There's little by way of signs of early promise that tell us that he was a genetic freak, born to succeed in endurance sports. There's definitely no aesthetically-pleasing style on the bike that tells us he had a natural affinity for riding. And there's no bank of results obtained that told us he was anything other than a moderately talented climber who could feasibly do a decent job for a team leader if he developed. I've traditionally said that I thought he could have become a rider like Egoí Martínez or Chris Anker Sørensen, and I don't feel that's an unreasonable level for what was possible from what he showed in his first years at Barloworld. But Barloworld themselves are a difficult one to judge, as they had a number of unreliable riders and riders with awkward, shuffling techniques, and they also had a number of dopers and positive tests - so actually ascertaining what development opportunities they provided is fairly difficult. But if it was simply that Sky provided better development opportunities, teaching him how to ride within himself and not be wasteful of energy as they described him as being, and improving his pack skills and tactical awareness even while he was struggling with the bilharzia, you would expect him to be at least stagnating, compensating for his less competitive physical shape with improved nous and energy preservation. But he wasn't - his results were going backwards until that hail mary was thrown in the Vuelta.

Then you have to add all of the other factors that have come to light over the last five and a half years - the TUEs, the jiffy bags, the asthma not mentioned in his book but coming to light shortly after its release when he was shown puffing on his inhaler in the middle of a race he won easily, the dubious team doctors, the laughably bad concocted story about the lost laptop, and so on - that make the team less trustworthy. Some of these factors Froome can help, some of them he can't. Then throw in the case history of cycling that makes his a) level and extent of success, and b) speed of emergence at such a late stage in his career look extremely unusual without broaching the subject of doping, and things mount up.

The thing is, "is it plausible?" is one thing. But "is it plausible coming from Chris Froome, given all that we already know and all that we already have seen?" Well, that's a much more subjective question.

I agree with a good portion of this. However imagine in the 2011 Vuelta Froome finished 23rd helping Wiggins to 2nd place. Or if he helped Wiggins to a point, rode for himself to get a top ten at the Vuelta. That would be actual progression. A very good progression.

Another way you’d exspect natural progression would be winning a Stage here and there before finding consistency. If Froome won the Queen stage at the ToC before dropping off you’d be a little more comfortable with him climbing with Cobo. And to that point, he didn’t just climb or sit on Cobo he was sprinting passed him, being caught, sprinting again and again. And that was not all, Froome became a world class time trialer. What are the chances?

Despite my tendencies to defend Froome mostly on here, I can't argue with this.

We've seen many examples of doping transformations...rouleurs/tt specialists who suddenly become climbers, stupendous solo attacks that come out of nowhere and are never repeated, one season/one GT wonders that come from nowhere.....but nothing like Froome, he really was average in all departments, and almost overnight became the worlds best in both climbing and tt efforts. And he's stayed this way, consistently, ever since.

It's like someone just hit a switch that's stayed on to this day

Doping alone doesn't explain this. I've never even remotely bought into the motors theories. None of the explanations offered by Team Froome are overly convincing.

Everything he's ever done since, IF we accept the 2011 reset, in my opinion is plausible. On the edge of incredible, but that's what we should be seeing from people who are the best in the world at what they do.

2011 remains the big mystery.

Great post, brownbobby.

And sorry, if I was a bit sceptical in my previous reply to your post. But after all, it is a debate forum:)
 
Jul 27, 2010
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Lappartient has basically said the Froome decision will not come until after the Tour, because it wouldn't be fair to deprive Froome of his right to be present at the hearing if it occurred during the Tour, and the 1500 pages of scientific documents make the case very complex.

Brilliant job, Mike Morgan. Froome will get to ride both the Giro and the Tour, a decision will come sometime in August or September, probably a six month ban that won't cost Froome anything but his Vuelta, and he will appeal that to CAS, anyway. Or maybe he will be exonerated and the details won't be published. But I doubt that, because if the argument is that the threshold is not fair, a decision in favor of Froome would open UCI/WADA to lawsuits from riders with similar or lower levels of salbutamol like Petacchi and Ulissi. I just don't see how that can happen.

1500 pages? What a joke. Boy, do I want to see the details of what they've been arguing over all this time.
 
May 26, 2010
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brownbobby said:
Saint Unix said:
DFA123 said:
So you don't think it's possible that he has improved his aerodynamics considerably since that 2010 TT? Of course I'm not saying that is the sole reason for his transformation to become an elite TTist, but it is a factor imo.

After all, there are plenty of first class dopers who are horrendous TTers. There are other factors involved than just having a huge engine.
Of course it's possible, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that any gains he would have had from reducing drag (even with the help of a wind tunnel, which he didn't have) would have been negated by the power loss that comes naturally with that sort of weight loss.

ScienceIsCool has done the math and shown Froome to gain 15% more power on TTs. To attribute all of that to reduced drag and weight loss isn't possible. Focusing on circumstances that can at best be a partial explanation for his drastic and instant improvement is just smoke and mirrors to distract from the point of this particular thread in this particular forum, which is "Is Chris Froome doping?"

So to use a Coundism: Can "legal" gains explain Froome's improvement? Maybe to a small degree, but not fully.

Here's a point I do feel qualified to comment on....15% improvement in power when TT'ing is certainly believable. There's a real art to getting the TT position right, it's not all about getting aero and reducing drag. Push it too far and you will certainly be limiting the power you can put out.

Now I don't know what his set up was like at Barloworld, or how much it changed at Sky. But over the years I've seen many, many examples of riders achieving improvements in power of these kind of percentages and beyond simply by getting the position dialled in and with no improvement in fitness.

If someone said his power when climbing increased by 15% that would be an entirely different story.....again not one that even doping could explain.


Really to the above? Name them that have won GTs?

We are talking elite pros, not sunday spins......
 
Sep 27, 2017
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Re: Re:

ahsoe said:
brownbobby said:
thehog said:
Libertine Seguros said:
Well, the problem is hyperbole. Even the most cynical people in this forum who describe Froome as having "zero talent" are meaning "relative to competition", in this case meaning the elite pro péloton. I'm not about to argue that he doesn't, or didn't, know how to ride a bike, even if his style of doing so may be among the ungainliest ever, along with the likes of Fernando Escartín, Juan Mauricio Soler and Francisco Mancebo, all of whom were great climbers. Soler was even the team leader at Froome's own team back in 2008-9.

Similarly, when we've looked at the performances and the power outputs, there has always been this debate over what's plausible, but it neglects the most important question, which is "is it plausible coming from that particular rider?" We can look at the climbing records on Mont Ventoux for an example. Nobody is going to argue away somebody matching Iban Mayo or Marco Pantani unassisted without serious cognitive dissonance, but at 58'31 you have David Moncoutié's best time, a rider who has been generally perceived as clean. Even if we add a bit to that, and say that there's a race with a summit finish on Mont Ventoux and the winning time is 1'00'00" on the money, if you have somebody like Marcel Kittel trail in at +1'00" it's going to raise eyebrows - a 61 minute ascent of Mont Ventoux is not in and of itself suspicious, it's a good 5 minutes slower than Iban Mayo's time from the Dauphiné, but if somebody like Marcel Kittel pulls it off, people are going to call BS, because that's quite simply not what Marcel Kittel is born to do (with apologies to Marcel, I just picked him as a pre-eminent sprinter who is known as a pure power guy, just for an extreme example).

Saint Unix has their list of the immediate success stories (there are many others you can add, take for example Darya Domracheva in the biathlon, competing as a youth she had to race against the boys, because she was regularly pasting the girls not only in her age group but in ALL age groups; Alejandro Valverde is always a good example to point to here because he's a rider nobody is going to call clean, but his indomitable record as a cadet which led to his "El Imbatido" nickname speaks for itself as to there being a special natural talent level from an early age also). Froome is something of an exception to that in that he didn't come to the sport via a traditional route, but nonetheless, it is worth noting that other late converts have been successful far more quickly - at the elite level there's Michael Woods, Primož Roglič and Richie Porte in recent years, for example (Porte came from triathlon so at least had some cycling background, but Woods came from distance running, and Roglič even came from a sport where explosivity is more important than endurance). But Froome didn't come to cycling with an established sporting background already there, nor did he come to the sport at a fully physically grown stage like them, so they're not fair direct comparisons either. Somebody like Bauke Mollema is a better comparison point, having taken up cycling at 19, and won the Tour de l'Avenir at 21. That stands in stark contrast to Froome's records from South African domestic events that was once publicised, which showed him not to have been especially out of the ordinary there either.

Nevertheless there must have been something there, including that vaunted "rough diamond" style that, once the inefficiencies were coached out of him, could reap dividends (strangely, there has not been any physical change in that style, other than the descending which he has markedly improved, but that's been only once he was already an established star, and not to do with his emergence), otherwise he wouldn't have found his way to the UCI World Cycling Centre or onto Barloworld - nevertheless Barloworld was, at the time, the only logical team for him to get onto that would have been able to ride at the top levels, and for all the attention paid to his performances in the final week of the 2008 Tour, he wasn't even the most promising young African climber at Barloworld, because while Froome did well to survive the break over the Croix de Fer and stay with Menchov for a bit after the Russian was dropped on Alpe d'Huez, he did get detached from the group just after Johan van Summeren (not exactly a vaunted climber) and he did finish 9 minutes behind the reigning Vuelta winner. Augustyn survived a strong break over the Col de la Lombarde and then was the strongest climber in it on the Col de la Bonette, cresting the highest peak in the race alone and he would have been in the position to win the stage had he not wiped out on the descent and lost his bike, which descended the Bonette to a fate unknown, much like Millar's legendary Contursi Terme bike throw that sent the bike rolling down the hillside over the barriers. But still, there were some performances there that suggested Froome had at least some talent to make it as a pro, if not a multiple Grand Tour winning one.

This is the problem - there's not linear progress with Froome that means we can answer the question "is it plausible coming from him?" with any degree of certainty at all. There's little by way of signs of early promise that tell us that he was a genetic freak, born to succeed in endurance sports. There's definitely no aesthetically-pleasing style on the bike that tells us he had a natural affinity for riding. And there's no bank of results obtained that told us he was anything other than a moderately talented climber who could feasibly do a decent job for a team leader if he developed. I've traditionally said that I thought he could have become a rider like Egoí Martínez or Chris Anker Sørensen, and I don't feel that's an unreasonable level for what was possible from what he showed in his first years at Barloworld. But Barloworld themselves are a difficult one to judge, as they had a number of unreliable riders and riders with awkward, shuffling techniques, and they also had a number of dopers and positive tests - so actually ascertaining what development opportunities they provided is fairly difficult. But if it was simply that Sky provided better development opportunities, teaching him how to ride within himself and not be wasteful of energy as they described him as being, and improving his pack skills and tactical awareness even while he was struggling with the bilharzia, you would expect him to be at least stagnating, compensating for his less competitive physical shape with improved nous and energy preservation. But he wasn't - his results were going backwards until that hail mary was thrown in the Vuelta.

Then you have to add all of the other factors that have come to light over the last five and a half years - the TUEs, the jiffy bags, the asthma not mentioned in his book but coming to light shortly after its release when he was shown puffing on his inhaler in the middle of a race he won easily, the dubious team doctors, the laughably bad concocted story about the lost laptop, and so on - that make the team less trustworthy. Some of these factors Froome can help, some of them he can't. Then throw in the case history of cycling that makes his a) level and extent of success, and b) speed of emergence at such a late stage in his career look extremely unusual without broaching the subject of doping, and things mount up.

The thing is, "is it plausible?" is one thing. But "is it plausible coming from Chris Froome, given all that we already know and all that we already have seen?" Well, that's a much more subjective question.

I agree with a good portion of this. However imagine in the 2011 Vuelta Froome finished 23rd helping Wiggins to 2nd place. Or if he helped Wiggins to a point, rode for himself to get a top ten at the Vuelta. That would be actual progression. A very good progression.

Another way you’d exspect natural progression would be winning a Stage here and there before finding consistency. If Froome won the Queen stage at the ToC before dropping off you’d be a little more comfortable with him climbing with Cobo. And to that point, he didn’t just climb or sit on Cobo he was sprinting passed him, being caught, sprinting again and again. And that was not all, Froome became a world class time trialer. What are the chances?

Despite my tendencies to defend Froome mostly on here, I can't argue with this.

We've seen many examples of doping transformations...rouleurs/tt specialists who suddenly become climbers, stupendous solo attacks that come out of nowhere and are never repeated, one season/one GT wonders that come from nowhere.....but nothing like Froome, he really was average in all departments, and almost overnight became the worlds best in both climbing and tt efforts. And he's stayed this way, consistently, ever since.

It's like someone just hit a switch that's stayed on to this day

Doping alone doesn't explain this. I've never even remotely bought into the motors theories. None of the explanations offered by Team Froome are overly convincing.

Everything he's ever done since, IF we accept the 2011 reset, in my opinion is plausible. On the edge of incredible, but that's what we should be seeing from people who are the best in the world at what they do.

2011 remains the big mystery.

Great post, brownbobby.

And sorry, if I was a bit sceptical in my previous reply to your post. But after all, it is a debate forum:)

Indeed it is, and you have to have very thick skin in here if you want to post in defence of Froome, so no apologies needed :cool:
 
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Benotti69 said:
DFA123 said:
Benotti69 said:
Anyone who claims the clinic as a single entity is full of it.
Nowhere have I claimed the clinic is a single entity. The Clinic s great, and with a wide range of opinions. I have simply noted my disdain for 'clinic-bots' (I think we all know who they are). The kind of posters who fail to acknowledge any factor influencing a cyclist or bike race, other than doping.

It just ends up in circular conversations heavy in cherry-picked examples and innuendo, with no room for nuance or shades of grey.


In the case of Froome, no there is no grey. In 2 weeks the guy went from pack fodder to GT podium. There are no nuances attained in those 2 weeks. From there he has been GT podium or crash with 6 GT wins (4Tdf, 1 Giro and 1 Vuelta) I mean that stratospheric rise at 26 is not nuanced in any manner. This guy was going to out of a job then BOOM, he would've won a GT if not for Wiggins. CRAZY. Nuance where, just **** where??????
that's not DFA was clearly suggesting. the talk is about a certain category of posters promoting an idea of froome doping to the gills, toying with others and doing nothing in terms of training and coaching, whilst his far more talented and skilful rivals work up a sweat to finish a gt 2nd. i'm quite sure you got him immediately but decided to spin all the things into sweet never-ever-grey mode.
 
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brownbobby said:
Did I mention micro dosing of HGH? Eventhough you have different protocols with big difference in units ;) . Do you know anything about the dosing protocols? And DNP? You do not know? May be try some bodybuilding board to understand the substance, it is real killer of bodyfat (sometimes also of the user). ;)

I know plenty about DNP. You clearly don't.....It would be absolutely catastrophic for a cyclist to be using it for a 2 week period leading up to a race. That's why I found the suggestion so funny.

But apologies if you weren't actually suggesting microdosing of hgh....yes again I understand the protocols. Microdosing isn't done with HGH. Frequent small doses yes, but that isn't microdosing in the sense applied to say EPO.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

Two week period would most probably kill everyone. To use it for 5 - 7 days with other substances would not be catastrophic ... . But OK, provide your explanation if you have better.
 
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Re:

Saint Unix said:
Good lord, people... How about we cut down some of the quote trees growing around here?

Agree - but its become impossible to cut out or cut down some of the quote which you want to reply to.

The notifications for subscribe to topic are also not working
 
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Benotti69 said:
brownbobby said:
Saint Unix said:
DFA123 said:
So you don't think it's possible that he has improved his aerodynamics considerably since that 2010 TT? Of course I'm not saying that is the sole reason for his transformation to become an elite TTist, but it is a factor imo.

After all, there are plenty of first class dopers who are horrendous TTers. There are other factors involved than just having a huge engine.
Of course it's possible, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that any gains he would have had from reducing drag (even with the help of a wind tunnel, which he didn't have) would have been negated by the power loss that comes naturally with that sort of weight loss.

ScienceIsCool has done the math and shown Froome to gain 15% more power on TTs. To attribute all of that to reduced drag and weight loss isn't possible. Focusing on circumstances that can at best be a partial explanation for his drastic and instant improvement is just smoke and mirrors to distract from the point of this particular thread in this particular forum, which is "Is Chris Froome doping?"

So to use a Coundism: Can "legal" gains explain Froome's improvement? Maybe to a small degree, but not fully.

Here's a point I do feel qualified to comment on....15% improvement in power when TT'ing is certainly believable. There's a real art to getting the TT position right, it's not all about getting aero and reducing drag. Push it too far and you will certainly be limiting the power you can put out.

Now I don't know what his set up was like at Barloworld, or how much it changed at Sky. But over the years I've seen many, many examples of riders achieving improvements in power of these kind of percentages and beyond simply by getting the position dialled in and with no improvement in fitness.

If someone said his power when climbing increased by 15% that would be an entirely different story.....again not one that even doping could explain.


Really to the above? Name them that have won GTs?

We are talking elite pros, not sunday spins......

I have no idea about any specific numbers relating to GT winners. Did I give the impression that I did :confused:
 
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Mr Podgey
 
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lartiste said:
brownbobby said:
Did I mention micro dosing of HGH? Eventhough you have different protocols with big difference in units ;) . Do you know anything about the dosing protocols? And DNP? You do not know? May be try some bodybuilding board to understand the substance, it is real killer of bodyfat (sometimes also of the user). ;)

I know plenty about DNP. You clearly don't.....It would be absolutely catastrophic for a cyclist to be using it for a 2 week period leading up to a race. That's why I found the suggestion so funny.

But apologies if you weren't actually suggesting microdosing of hgh....yes again I understand the protocols. Microdosing isn't done with HGH. Frequent small doses yes, but that isn't microdosing in the sense applied to say EPO.
[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Two week period would most probably kill everyone. To use it for 5 - 7 days with other substances would not be catastrophic ... . But OK, provide your explanation if you have better.[/quote]

Seriously? You know all about DNP, the internal changes it brings about in the human body to activate such rapid weight loss.....and you really don't see why it would be one of the last substances on earth that a cyclist, in your scenario 2 weeks away from the most important race of his life, would want to put in his body?

Froome was preparing for a 3 week GT, one of the most gruelling sports events imaginable. He wasn't preparing to get oiled up, slip a thong on and go throw down a few most muscular poses.

He wasn't taking DNP.