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Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

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Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
rick james said:
jmdirt said:
I've had this discussion in several threads over the years, but Froome's quote:
"And it is also worth pointing out that there is no performance benefit from using an asthma inhaler. It is purely a medical treatment."
got me going again. Asthma meds. are performance enhancing. Hey I'm sorry you have a lung issue, but that's the way it goes. You got screed by genetics. Where do you draw the line? Your lungs are constricted so take a med to open them up, my hematocrit is low so take some CERA to boost RBC/hemoglobin?

How well can CF perform without asthma meds.? Not as well as with them. Therefore, those meds. are performance enhancing.

I'm not arguing the rules here, I know that certain amounts of certain things are OK.


it doesn't give you 75% more capacity in your lungs, all it does it makes an asthmatic lungs work to a normal level, if you'd rather see people die, and people can die with asthma attacks then that's up to you......it just shows how little you know

Really? Froome is going to die? Really?

Bollix!!!

i'm sure you'd love to see it really happen, but people do die from asthma attacks, its not all made up rubbish you know, just because you don't want to believe it...
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
rick james said:
bigcog said:
When do we get to see the 1500 page document ?
you don't...its private, why do you think you have the right to see it

"There are issues that do need to be looked at urgently - and I am sure they will be - as nobody wants other clean athletes to be faced with a similar situation. I would welcome the publication by WADA of the scientific studies they relied on both to create the current testing regime and to exonerate me," Froome wrote.

:D
when they go back and ask Froome if its ok then we might see it...until then its private
 
right that's it i'm out, I want to enjoy the next 3 weeks of racing no matter if froome wins or not, because unlike some it seems I actually want to watch bike racing....see you if froome breaks the internet and that will happen if he's dropped and the last tours catch up with him or he decides he has the legs and attacks...


happy bitching folks
 
mrhender said:
brownbobby said:
Tim Booth said:
UCI statement

Q&A response to public comments on the proceedings involving Mr. Froome
http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/response-public-comments-the-proceedings-involving-froome/

Interesting read. What first struck me was how quick Team Froome were in responding/providing information, and how (relatively) slow UCI/Wada were in responding to requests for information. It seems that once information was provided the decision was relatively quick and straightforward...so much for the 1500 pages of diversionary nonsense.

I wonder if those bemoaning Froome for deliberately dragging out the case will rethink and apologise?

Ha ha...who am I kidding, of course they won't. My guess is Rupert Murdoch phoned Donald Trump who phoned up the UCI and told them they had to release this completely fabricated version of events :cool:


Lol Carlton ;)

So which part are you wanting to deny....

That Froome wasn't deliberately delaying the case so he could ride the Giro and Tour?

That Froome's team weren't desperately clutching at straws with fanciful theories such as malfunctioning kidneys

That Froome's team didn't try to swamp and overwhelm UCI/Wada with 1500 pages of fantasy theories?

That Froome hasn't been given a torrid time by a large section of the media and public over the last 9 months for what looks increasingly like complete rumour and misrepresentation of the true timeline of the case...
 
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Re: Re:

rick james said:
Benotti69 said:
rick james said:
jmdirt said:
I've had this discussion in several threads over the years, but Froome's quote:
"And it is also worth pointing out that there is no performance benefit from using an asthma inhaler. It is purely a medical treatment."
got me going again. Asthma meds. are performance enhancing. Hey I'm sorry you have a lung issue, but that's the way it goes. You got screed by genetics. Where do you draw the line? Your lungs are constricted so take a med to open them up, my hematocrit is low so take some CERA to boost RBC/hemoglobin?

How well can CF perform without asthma meds.? Not as well as with them. Therefore, those meds. are performance enhancing.

I'm not arguing the rules here, I know that certain amounts of certain things are OK.


it doesn't give you 75% more capacity in your lungs, all it does it makes an asthmatic lungs work to a normal level, if you'd rather see people die, and people can die with asthma attacks then that's up to you......it just shows how little you know

Really? Froome is going to die? Really?

Bollix!!!

i'm sure you'd love to see it really happen, but people do die from asthma attacks, its not all made up rubbish you know, just because you don't want to believe it...

No i dont want to see Froome die. He doesn't have asthma. We all know that.
 
Re:

rick james said:
right that's it i'm out, I want to enjoy the next 3 weeks of racing no matter if froome wins or not, because unlike some it seems I actually want to watch bike racing....see you if froome breaks the internet and that will happen if he's dropped and the last tours catch up with him or he decides he has the legs and attacks...


happy bitching folks

We all want to watch bike racing.

We have been told since 2011 by bot that you cant win a double in the season if you're clean. Dawg does it and it's all of a sudden possible because of the correct marginal gains. Then, the Dawg test's positive and a circus starts. Then he starts the Giro overweight apparently with the plan to lose weight to be ready for the Tour. Then drops one of the most sensational stage wins in the history of the sport whilst under investigation. Then SDB says it's because he had a jam sandwich on a climb and an extra banana (of course I am paraphasing before you wet your knickers). Then just before the Tour he is all of a sudden cleared less than 24h after the organiser says they're gonna ban him and it's down to dehydration why the concentration is so high. Now he's on for
another double after a tough Giro.

So come on rick, don't treat us like mugs. Froome and Sky find themselves in this situation because they cannot remember what sh!t they have come out with and treat the fans like they're wet behind the ear idiots. They must think all the fans on the roads are just new fans from the Velodrome after watching Hoy and co smash others to bits. They must think that once they see the all shining death start come and park up they forgot about the history of cycling.
 
Re: Re:

rick james said:
Pantani_lives said:
This is simply the biggest scandal in doping history. Riders doping is one thing, but officials manipulating their own rules and coming up with pseudo-scientific nonsense explanations is unseen. Never before has a sport been so corrupt. I applaud Marc Madiot, Romain Bardet and Bernard Hinault for having the guts to speak out against this outrage. Unfortunately they're in a brave minority.


Calm down, f*ck we've had folk die because of doping, Froome proving he is innocent in a case that should have remained private isn't that big a deal.....finding him guilty just because it just happens to be froome is wrong...but hey ho carry on

Froome didn't prove anything, WADA said he's inocent, with no explanation at all, but hey life goes on...
 
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brownbobby said:
mrhender said:
brownbobby said:
Tim Booth said:
UCI statement

Q&A response to public comments on the proceedings involving Mr. Froome
http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/response-public-comments-the-proceedings-involving-froome/

Interesting read. What first struck me was how quick Team Froome were in responding/providing information, and how (relatively) slow UCI/Wada were in responding to requests for information. It seems that once information was provided the decision was relatively quick and straightforward...so much for the 1500 pages of diversionary nonsense.

I wonder if those bemoaning Froome for deliberately dragging out the case will rethink and apologise?

Ha ha...who am I kidding, of course they won't. My guess is Rupert Murdoch phoned Donald Trump who phoned up the UCI and told them they had to release this completely fabricated version of events :cool:


Lol Carlton ;)

So which part are you wanting to deny....

That Froome wasn't deliberately delaying the case so he could ride the Giro and Tour?

That Froome's team weren't desperately clutching at straws with fanciful theories such as malfunctioning kidneys

That Froome's team didn't try to swamp and overwhelm UCI/Wada with 1500 pages of fantasy theories?

That Froome hasn't been given a torrid time by a large section of the media and public over the last 9 months for what looks increasingly like complete rumour and misrepresentation of the true timeline of the case...

I read the article. Frankly am amazed as to to your conclusions. Cite the paragraphs that confirm your interpretation please.

Also, try to be more specific. You are quoting me but swinging left and right with no examples.

As for the media giving him a torrid time.. please thats less than half the story. They (still) have a whole band of cheerleaders following every wink. And dont tell me after all this started with jiffy bags and what not that Froome somehow should get a free pass on a reported AAF with higher numbers than anyone in history.
 
I side with Nibali
Calimero.gif
 
Re: Re:

rick james said:
jmdirt said:
I've had this discussion in several threads over the years, but Froome's quote:
"And it is also worth pointing out that there is no performance benefit from using an asthma inhaler. It is purely a medical treatment."
got me going again. Asthma meds. are performance enhancing. Hey I'm sorry you have a lung issue, but that's the way it goes. You got screed by genetics. Where do you draw the line? Your lungs are constricted so take a med to open them up, my hematocrit is low so take some CERA to boost RBC/hemoglobin?

How well can CF perform without asthma meds.? Not as well as with them. Therefore, those meds. are performance enhancing.

I'm not arguing the rules here, I know that certain amounts of certain things are OK.


it doesn't give you 75% more capacity in your lungs, all it does it makes an asthmatic lungs work to a normal level, if you'd rather see people die, and people can die with asthma attacks then that's up to you......it just shows how little you know
You shouldn't try to be a smart ars, when you are missing the entire point: elite sports is about genetic freaks competing and if you have asthma, you aren't one. Please by all means treat your asthma so that you don't die, but if you are using drugs to help you breathe, you aren't "clean". Just like my example, I just need a little CERA, (or T, or HGH, or...) to use your words, to get to a normal level.
 
Warning, this is very rambling even by my standards, but there's too many converging points to do as a series of posts without it being lost in the shuffle.

The sport is at an important crossroads. Chris Froome is just a participant in the game, but we are at a worrisome tipping point. The sport has been carefully balancing along a narrow beam between spectacle and trustworthiness for a long time, but one of the most important keys to the delicate balance was the understanding that anti-doping was, in fact, about catching cheats. It may have been selective in its focus, and it may have been open to certain abuses on all sides, but ultimately its aim was to catch cheats. It was the only system we had with which the integrity of the sport was maintained, for all of its flaws, and for that it was regarded as essential, no matter how ineffectual or arbitrary it may sometimes have seemed. After all - not everybody has the time nor the inclination to research the team doctors, not everybody has the time to peruse the UCI's sanctions pdfs, not everybody cares enough to study each rider's team history and find the patterns, and they needed something with which to understand at least superficially how they were supposed to trust what they saw.

Back in the 70s and 80s, professional wrestling was regulated by athletic commissions and treated as a real sport across the world. Companies and wrestlers would go to great lengths to ensure that the sordid business of rigging and falsehood that underpinned the industry was protected; one example was that Ted DiBiase was always furnished with a large roll of shiny new banknotes, because it was important that nobody could say that "The Million Dollar Man" didn't tip or was fumbling for small change. Wrestlers would protect the business at all costs, because it was vital to their earning potential that the public believed in what they were selling. Some organizations would even use a skilled wrestler with legitimate sports background to wrestle members of the crowd for additional money, like the old carnival days, to 'prove' the legitimacy of the sport. Wrestlers who imparted secrets or who broke the code, running the risk of revealing the fakery, would be ostracised and shunned. Sure, with the outlandish moves and characters there was already plenty to doubt, and plenty of people had implied or outright stated that the sport was rigged (to the extent that Groucho Marx was joking about it even in the 1950s), but it wasn't explicitly acknowledged.

In 1987, two prominent wrestlers were arrested for DUI, drinking and partying together - supposedly two mortal rivals, one good guy and one bad guy. Why would these men who, to the public's eye, couldn't stand one another and couldn't be in the same room without a fight breaking out, be partying together, unless something was amiss? It was the first of a series of blows to the credibility of professional wrestling, all of which culminated in Vince McMahon testifying to a State Senate that wrestling was not a legitimate sport, ostensibly to avoid some of the regulation required by the athletic commissions. This was not acknowledged on-screen until several years later, but the rumours spread fast and in the end it was an inevitability that it would become common knowledge. But unlike with, say, a magician, where you know it's a trick but you don't know how it's done, wrestling laid all of its falsehoods out there for everybody to see. It was transparent in its fakeness. And what happened? Well, at first, not a great deal, but over time wrestling as it had been died almost completely; shorn of any belief in the legitimacy of either the good or the bad guys, fans ceased to cheer for the heroes and boo the villains, and instead would cheer for who entertained them, regardless of whether they ostensibly portrayed positive or negative characters. Many, shorn of any reason to believe what was presented, felt betrayed and stopped watching; others, with no longer a reason to care who won or lost, would simply wish for the spectacle to entertain them and would stop watching once no longer entertained.

A lot of professional sport is, however, now at that difficult crossroads that wrestling found itself in the late 1980s. Obviously the underlying falsehood is different and there isn't going to be a Vince McMahon moment; for the most part legitimate sport is not predetermined, at least not in the same way as professional wrestling (plenty of rigged competitions out there of course), but over the last few years, the public has become a lot more keenly aware of 'what lies beneath', shall we say. Fans are far more clued up now as to backroom deals, doping scandals, nepotism and so on, than they were before the Information Age. Controlling the narrative is much more difficult now because while you can always lead the mainstream media, with journalists keen to retain a level of access and with agendas and remits to fulfil, maintaining a level of control over the much less predictable and less malleable social media is much more difficult. Cycling is one of the most directly affected sports, because the lid has been off about doping in cycling many times before. Cycling has had its moments like that 1987 arrest where the extent of 'what lies beneath' has been laid bare for fans to see - the Festina Affair and Operación Puerto, to name but two. Riders who've broken the code - in wrestling parlance, it is called kayfabe, whereas in cycling the mafia word, omertà, or "silence", is preferred - are pressured to keep their mouths shut, bullied and hounded within the péloton, an unfortunate outcome of it being a pack sport. You can be blackballed by the péloton, or blackballed by the authorities. This can be those who expressly and publicly draw attention to doping, such as Christophe Bassons or Filippo Simeoni, those who themselves were dopers but who talked to the authorities thus endangering others, like Emanuele Sella, or even just those who did nothing of the sort but who were busted in such a way as to embarrass the sport or affect its global image, and therefore their continued success is undesirable, such as Michael Rasmussen. Cyclists doping has been common knowledge enough for sports whose own houses are far from in order to laugh at it - witness the mockery on Punto Pelota that led to Óscar Pereiro flying off the rails, for example.

We've long been at the stage where the default reaction to a great ride is not to applaud the chutzpah of the rider but to question what made it possible, but now we're at a stage where it's common enough knowledge that it's not even possible to suspend one's disbelief. I've talked about the line we draw between where we are willing to suspend our disbelief and where we aren't before - for the record, that particular discussion was where I drew the line above Ezequiel Mosquera but below Cândido Barbosa, whose mountain exploits for two weeks a year as an 80kg sprinter were simply unpalatable even in my more naïve times. But perhaps now we've reached that post-kayfabe point that wrestling reached, where many fans have simply let go of any pretence to believing in what they're seeing, and instead have come to the conclusion that they should just cheer for who entertains them and boo who doesn't, regardless of whether their achievements are objectively believable or not. And for those fans who've decided that enough scandals and enough knowledge of 'what lies beneath' has become available to them that they simply do not trust any of the athletes they see, and simply therefore are only interested in the sport for its entertainment value.

It's only here that Chris Froome really gets involved, and in large part his involvement is, much as Christophe Proudhomme may not like to hear this seeing as he objects to Froome's current presence at the Tour, very much the unintended consequence of ASO's actions a decade ago. After the lid was lifted on the Festina Affair, and especially after reigning Giro and Tour champion Marco Pantani was unceremoniously removed from the Giro close to the end, ostensibly on health grounds as that was the only way they could test for many of the substances in use at the time, the 1999 Tour was branded the "Tour of Redemption", to try to mitigate the obvious negative impact on the race's appeal after the previous year's doping scandals; it was won of course by Lance Armstrong, who over the years became a very profitable cash cow in that lucrative US market. After his retirement, a stagnation of that market, along with negative impacts of consecutive doping scandals in other markets, most significantly the German market, which was teetering on the brink after Operación Puerto, and leapt headlong into the abyss following the Rasmussen, Vinokourov, Kashechkin and Sinkewitz scandals in 2007, meant that the sport was perhaps not hitting the viewership/sponsor profitability targets intended, but either way, it meant that the return of Lance Armstrong in 2009 was pretty much accepted at any terms necessary by the race organisers. RCS voluntarily removed the Giro invite for wildcard team Ceramica Flaminia-Bossini Docce even though they had the current Italian national champion, because Lance wouldn't ride if Filippo Simeoni did. ASO unleashed a tailored Tour route to ensure Armstrong would stay in contention until very deep into the race, to maintain high audience figures thanks to the Armstrong effect.

But the most important impact of Armstrong's return was the removal of AFLD from testing at the Tour, and - allegedly pressured by Nicolas Sarkozy - the removal of Pierre Bordry from his position there. AFLD's work on the anti-doping front was the driving force behind a lot of progress from 2006-2009; they were the ones that kept the CERA test fully secret until suddenly unleashing a flurry of positives, seeing as the drug both had a long half-life and was thought by the péloton to be safe from detection. But throwing a polka dot jersey wearer out of the race during the event, and a GC podium and polka dot jersey winner being disqualified after the event, as well as having to reclassify no fewer than four stages, didn't sit well with the attempts to rejuvenate the event, and so revoking AFLD's licence for the race was of course a small price to pay for the improvement in that lucrative American audience. Similar manipulation of the target audience is also behind other ASO decisions in recent times, of course - do we think that the series of TT-biased courses culminating in the 2012 Tour de France, perfectly timed to cash in on a UK home Olympics with a first ever British Grand Tour win, was pure coincidence? Or the attempts to bring the German crowd back into the fold with a Tour start, just before an ASO-organised relaunch of the Deutschland Tour takes place? At the end of the day, ASO is a business, and they were happy to ride the Team Sky gravy train while it was profitable. Chris Froome has won 16 stage races at the UCI level since the start of 2012; 10 of these have been in explicitly ASO-organised races (Dauphiné, Oman, Tour de France, Critérium International), and a further three have been in closely ASO-affiliated races (Romandie, Vuelta a España); only the 2015 Ruta del Sol, 2016 Herald Sun Tour and 2018 Giro d'Italia have been away from the watchful eyes of Proudhomme.

So what went wrong for Christian? After all, he was happy to have Froome winning his race even when the fans, some of whom were greatly upset at this perceived doper getting perceived preferential treatment, and/or lording it over the péloton with an air of undeserved arrogance in his proclamations of his own cleanliness, but some of whom, like the wrestling fans above, had almost ceased to care about cheering for heroes or villains, and simply wanted to be entertained, and so the fans' absolute rejection of Froome as a champion for any and all of these reasons became a more compelling story than the actual race. But with an actual positive test behind him - which until this week was legitimately to be regarded as such, before any pedantry - his presence at the forefront of the race was no longer something that was beneficial to ASO. His reputation was damaged, he was no longer presentable as the clean face of the current crop, taking over a year after the Reasoned Decision just as Lance had taken over a year after Festina. The fans' rejection of him ceased to be a compelling story for Proudhomme.

But now, Sky are dangerous for the delicate balancing act that is cycling's attempt at retaining some kind of morality. In part because of their Manchester City-esque budgetary superiority enabling them to build it, and in part because of some very friendly ASO-led parcours (it's no coincidence that of stage races won by the team in black in the last eight years, nearly half are in the small handful organised by the Amaury group) helping them build a pre-eminent position in some of the biggest races out there, they have grown to a position of immense prominence in the sport and are now in the position that it seems they feel they can get away with anything; they simultaneously treat themselves as the morality police of the sport whilst simultaneously flaunting their unwillingness to do anything that imposes any moral obligations on themselves - declining to join MPCC because they have their own "stronger" internal checks which enable them to continue to keep riders on the road while under investigation, for example, or only sanctioning riders for racially abusing fellow professionals after they've extracted maximum benefit from them in the race they're in, and ensuring that they place his internal suspension through his scheduled rest period. And then they flaunt their superiority by ruling races with an iron fist, confident in their beliefs that they are untouchable.

Because that's what this decision inevitably sets into the minds of the fans. That Sky are untouchable by the hands of anti-doping despite the myriad stories that have hit the presses, that there can be no Vince McMahon moment where the game is up despite practically every finger pointing at them. That they're simply brazen in their cheating because they know they're too powerful for whatever legitimate anti-doping fight there remains. That the jiffy bag investigation went away because not enough evidence could be gathered, but throughout the process Sky were obstructive and evasive, with various excuses presented as to why that evidence was not available but no satisfactory answers to why that was. And so now we have a decision which has been successfully filibustered for ten months while it was no impediment to Froome riding, suddenly become available less than 24 hours after his availability to do whatever the hell he wants is affected. How can they act surprised if the fans don't want to see it anymore?

Like it or not, the Froome decision and its implications are a huge blow to clean competition in any sport. Regardless of your position on Froome himself, placing the onus back onto the anti-doping authorities to prove anything when there are already some absurdly generous limits designed to avoid false positives (remember Levi's 133% off-score?) and away from the athletes, only serves to exacerbate the problem which is that athletes play a lot in the grey areas of what they can get away with without tripping the anti-doping legislation. What this decision does is make the grey area roughly the size of Jupiter, so long as you have adequate funding to challenge the test. It's also why André Cardoso's announcement that he's abandoning his appeal came out this week, as he is able to provide a perfect juxtaposition to Chris Froome - the big difference being that he tested positive for something which is banned at all times, rather than a controlled substance, so continuing to ride during the appeal process would have been much more of an issue.

Either way, the reaction of fans to Chris Froome at the Tour presentation was only to be expected. It's not even especially to do with him personally; it's to do with everything that he, and his team, represents: big business, and faceless, emotionless corporate megaliths, reducing everything to power numbers and soundbites, trampling all over the little guy and rubbing it in their face while they do it. Cardoso has posited himself in that role, a counterpoint to Froome - an everyman trying to get by as a worker ant, whose B sample was inconclusive but prevented from fighting for perceived justice because he lacks the bank balance that Sky have. Whether he belongs in that role or not is a completely separate question, but you can see why the decision is controversial and why Froome's presence is therefore an unwelcome distraction.

However, while I may not want to see Chris Froome at the Tour any more than him, I have no sympathy for Christian Proudhomme. He has reaped what he has sown.
 
Banning athletes with asthma from sport is essentially medically cleansing a peloton based on a medical condition despite a medication existing that enables them to still compete normally if not abused.
The thing is ANY athlete in that pelton can cheat and take drugs for hidden performance enhancement, not just asthma sufferers!

Besides, denying asthma treatment from genuine asthma athletes is basically a form of medically-based social cleansing in cycling which is simply wrong. I would say bordering on mild human discrimination.
 
Re: Re:

Parker said:
jmdirt said:
elite sports is about genetic freaks competing and if you have asthma, you aren't one.
So with that in mind, you must believe that contact lenses must be banned from elite sport too.
In the purest sense yes, but since you don't inject, inhale, ingest,...them, I let 'em slide. Nice devil's advocate on that one, someone already tried prescription sun glasses one time.
 
Re: Re:

rick james said:
it doesn't give you 75% more capacity in your lungs, all it does it makes an asthmatic lungs work to a normal level, if you'd rather see people die, and people can die with asthma attacks then that's up to you......it just shows how little you know
Strawdog hyperbole man, wow! There's a big stretch between restricted breathing and dying.

The thing is, you have a fixed view on performance enhancing. If a medication brings you to normal from an activity that is 'reducing' you from normal, the medication is performance enhancing. If my breathing is a-ok, ventolin does nothing for me, but if I am having issues due to allergy season and take ventolin, it totally enhances my performance, 'cause otherwise I'd be much worse.

I don't think you are seeing a groundswell of people asking for ventolin to be banned, so chill ricky bobby, chill
 
mrhender said:
brownbobby said:
mrhender said:
brownbobby said:
Tim Booth said:
UCI statement

Q&A response to public comments on the proceedings involving Mr. Froome
http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/response-public-comments-the-proceedings-involving-froome/

Interesting read. What first struck me was how quick Team Froome were in responding/providing information, and how (relatively) slow UCI/Wada were in responding to requests for information. It seems that once information was provided the decision was relatively quick and straightforward...so much for the 1500 pages of diversionary nonsense.

I wonder if those bemoaning Froome for deliberately dragging out the case will rethink and apologise?

Ha ha...who am I kidding, of course they won't. My guess is Rupert Murdoch phoned Donald Trump who phoned up the UCI and told them they had to release this completely fabricated version of events :cool:


Lol Carlton ;)

So which part are you wanting to deny....

That Froome wasn't deliberately delaying the case so he could ride the Giro and Tour?

That Froome's team weren't desperately clutching at straws with fanciful theories such as malfunctioning kidneys

That Froome's team didn't try to swamp and overwhelm UCI/Wada with 1500 pages of fantasy theories?

That Froome hasn't been given a torrid time by a large section of the media and public over the last 9 months for what looks increasingly like complete rumour and misrepresentation of the true timeline of the case...

I read the article. Frankly am amazed as to to your conclusions. Cite the paragraphs that confirm your interpretation please.

Also, try to be more specific. You are quoting me but swinging left and right with no examples.

As for the media giving him a torrid time.. please thats less than half the story. They (still) have a whole band of cheerleaders following every wink. And dont tell me after all this started with jiffy bags and what not that Froome somehow should get a free pass on a reported AAF with higher numbers than anyone in history.

If you've read the article and don't see reference to the specific points I made....then read it again, this time with your eyes open.

I gave 3 specific examples of incorrect accusations levelled at Froome. How much more specific do you want me to be in 'quoting' your in depth post of 'Lol Carlton' :confused:

And I didn't say Froome didn't deserve any flak over an AAF...talk about misquoting. Lol.

Specifically I referred to false accusations that he was deliberately dragging out the case which were constantly levelled at him during the case to jack up the abuse he got. I asked if he was due an apology on ths specific point which now appears to be completely wrong. This is not the same as saying he should have got a free pass from all questions on the AAF, not even close.

It's possible to apologise for getting part of a situation wrong, without prejudice to the rest of your opinions. No?
 
Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
But the most important impact of Armstrong's return was the removal of AFLD from testing at the Tour, and - allegedly pressured by Nicolas Sarkozy - the removal of Pierre Bordry from his position there. AFLD's work on the anti-doping front was the driving force behind a lot of progress from 2006-2009; they were the ones that kept the CERA test fully secret until suddenly unleashing a flurry of positives, seeing as the drug both had a long half-life and was thought by the péloton to be safe from detection. But throwing a polka dot jersey wearer out of the race during the event, and a GC podium and polka dot jersey winner being disqualified after the event, as well as having to reclassify no fewer than four stages, didn't sit well with the attempts to rejuvenate the event, and so revoking AFLD's licence for the race was of course a small price to pay for the improvement in that lucrative American audience.
Great piece, Libertine Seguros. In the period 2006-2008 there was a genuine fight against doping, the "New Cycling", with a lot of big names caught. AFLD played a crucial role in that. The welcoming back of Armstrong in the 2009 Tour was a return to the Old Cycling, with the UCI back in charge and AFLD out of the equation. Anti-doping should be taken out of the hands of the UCI. They were never bothered about Froome's salbutamol level, only about the truth leaking out. Today another Tour starts with the top favorite perceived as a protected doping user whose team gets a preferential treatment.
 
Re: Re:

Pantani_lives said:
Libertine Seguros said:
But the most important impact of Armstrong's return was the removal of AFLD from testing at the Tour, and - allegedly pressured by Nicolas Sarkozy - the removal of Pierre Bordry from his position there. AFLD's work on the anti-doping front was the driving force behind a lot of progress from 2006-2009; they were the ones that kept the CERA test fully secret until suddenly unleashing a flurry of positives, seeing as the drug both had a long half-life and was thought by the péloton to be safe from detection. But throwing a polka dot jersey wearer out of the race during the event, and a GC podium and polka dot jersey winner being disqualified after the event, as well as having to reclassify no fewer than four stages, didn't sit well with the attempts to rejuvenate the event, and so revoking AFLD's licence for the race was of course a small price to pay for the improvement in that lucrative American audience.
Great piece, Libertine Seguros. In the period 2006-2008 there was a genuine fight against doping, the "New Cycling", with a lot of big names caught. AFLD played a crucial role in that. The welcoming back of Armstrong in the 2009 Tour was a return to the Old Cycling, with the UCI back in charge and AFLD out of the equation. Anti-doping should be taken out of the hands of the UCI. They were never bothered about Froome's salbutamol level, only about the truth leaking out. Today another Tour starts with the top favorite perceived as a protected doping user whose team gets a preferential treatment.

Who do you think leaked Froome's test results ? The own goal was kicked by the UCI !
 
Re: Re:

yaco said:
Pantani_lives said:
Libertine Seguros said:
But the most important impact of Armstrong's return was the removal of AFLD from testing at the Tour, and - allegedly pressured by Nicolas Sarkozy - the removal of Pierre Bordry from his position there. AFLD's work on the anti-doping front was the driving force behind a lot of progress from 2006-2009; they were the ones that kept the CERA test fully secret until suddenly unleashing a flurry of positives, seeing as the drug both had a long half-life and was thought by the péloton to be safe from detection. But throwing a polka dot jersey wearer out of the race during the event, and a GC podium and polka dot jersey winner being disqualified after the event, as well as having to reclassify no fewer than four stages, didn't sit well with the attempts to rejuvenate the event, and so revoking AFLD's licence for the race was of course a small price to pay for the improvement in that lucrative American audience.
Great piece, Libertine Seguros. In the period 2006-2008 there was a genuine fight against doping, the "New Cycling", with a lot of big names caught. AFLD played a crucial role in that. The welcoming back of Armstrong in the 2009 Tour was a return to the Old Cycling, with the UCI back in charge and AFLD out of the equation. Anti-doping should be taken out of the hands of the UCI. They were never bothered about Froome's salbutamol level, only about the truth leaking out. Today another Tour starts with the top favorite perceived as a protected doping user whose team gets a preferential treatment.

Who do you think leaked Froome's test results ? The own goal was kicked by the UCI !

when somebody inside the 'government' leaks something...the 'government' generally aren't very pleased
 
Jan 11, 2018
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Great stuff Libertine, as usual. Not much needs to be added to that, but I would like to briefly touch on one thing - that a team like Sky can be tolerable or even beneficial within sport as long as they a) are seen to be made to abide by the same rules as everyone else, and b) are beatable.

There is a place for the 'villain' in sport, the big corporate entity, the ones with a touch of arrogance, who draw fans based on some particular national or demographic allegiance but are otherwise disliked by the majority due to being too big/forthright/dominating etc. This can be a useful narrative in setting such teams or athletes against the 'little guys' and more humble opposition, the plucky ones looking to knock them off who the majority can cheer on. In the right context that can be entertaining and a good contest. A resource imbalance can be acknowledged and accepted, as long as it's not such as to completely skew the playing field. They can even dope, given pretty much everyone else does, as long as they're not especially protected in doing do.

But the viability of this falls apart if the villain is seen to be above the law, or able to buy their way out of trouble when no-one else can. Any concept of a fair fight, and of a legitimate sport, dies if that occurs. In terms of pure entertainment value, it is almost equally damaging if it seems that the villain simply never loses, essentially can't lose baring some major misfortune. The same person wining all the time becomes boring, all the more so if it appears that a significant reason for this is the athlete/team's resource, political or extra-legal advantage, rather than pure athletic ability.

Sky and Froome now fail on both these points, just as Armstrong and US Postal did before them. There is the perception of certain things being done just for their benefit, now compounded by being able to ride out scandals and even make violations of the rules go away. And on top of that Froome's success rate has only grown, even beyond Armstrong's. Winning the Tour every year was quite enough, when at least at the Vuelta he was vulnerable and while Quintana in particular was very close to him. But now, with 3 straight TdFs and 3 straight GTs, it's gone from impressive to outright dominance, of an almost unprecedented kind. Despite the quality of the GC field at this Tour, despite Froome having already done and won the Giro, you expect he will win again, if he stays upright. That's crazy, it's dull, and it becomes intolerable when you factor in everything else that has gone on, and the nature of and reasons for Sky's position and dominance relative to the rest of the field.

Sky are no longer a 'good' villain for the sport of cycling, if they ever were. They are unequivocally bad, but as Libertine has said, the sport's governance must reap what it has sown. The show will go on, but there is damage being done.