Froome Vs. Contador

[Publicus]

Re: Re:

Froome is present only in twitter pictures taken by himself grinning while his teammates struggle in the backgound. Meanwhile Bertie disappeared in the Basque woods on Arrate emerging after some 7 Watts/kilo to win Pais Vasco. Who's the boss?

We will ee in Dauphine, le Tour, Olimpics and maybe la Vuelta.

At the moment I think Froome is the boss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpyQKurDgMg&nohtml5=False

And this is just one indication, but... willian hill TdF 2016 now,


2.20

Chris Froome

3.25

Nairo Quintana

4.50

Alberto Contador

15.00

Fabio Aru

21.00

Richie Porte

31.00

Thibaut Pinot

31.00

Vincenzo Nibali

34.00

Geraint Thomas

34.00

Tejay Van Garderen

Based on performances this year, I think it's even between Contador and Quintana (with a slight favor to Contador) and then a gap to Froome. We'll see if he's improved since his disastrous performance at Catalunya if those rankings are still warranted.

That is quite useless. If Froome wins Romandie and Contador is at home, what we said, that Froome is the boss? NO, we need to wait at least till Dauphine, where both of them will be at a similar shape.

In Romandia I think Froome was quite well, not at his best, but similar other years there, the problem was the rain.

It's not at all useless. We've only had the three favorites line up at one race. That's the best indication of where they are THIS YEAR. We won't be able to measure their progress vis-a-vis each other until they race again. I hope Quintana races the Dauphine, otherwise we'll only know where Froome and Contador are vis-a-vis each other (and even then, Froome will likely have more race fitness coming from Romandie).

I think you're just as biased towards Froome, as you are against Contador. I'm trying to put forth a consistent comparison method that isn't as dependent on past performance. Until we see Froome performing well against his TdF contemporaries (one or both), it's hard to assess that he's the favorite going into July.

 

[Jelantik]

I don't really like this thread. Because it's a bad luck.

Remember 2014? every single people and media in the planet was talking about the duel of the century between Froome and Contador. The hype was so big, the forum exploded with people arguing over who's the best to the nauseum, who has been climbing the fastest, comparing their stats from some previous year even to.. scrutinizing how their physique was skinny enough or not.

Then come TDF. .. BOOM.. Both crashed out. Left Nibali to cash in.

I really don't want to happen again. I don't want Tejay or Thibaut win the TDF because of 2014 accident involving these two happen again. Please no bad ju ju.

 

[Scarponi]

There has not been a duel since Andy and Contador 2010. It's just too hard to get right

 

[Publicus]

I don't really like this thread. Because it's a bad luck.

Remember 2014? every single people and media in the planet was talking about the duel of the century between Froome and Contador. The hype was so big, the forum exploded with people arguing over who's the best to the nauseum, who has been climbing the fastest, comparing their stats from some previous year even to.. scrutinizing how their physique was skinny enough or not.

Then come TDF. .. BOOM.. Both crashed out. Left Nibali to cash in.

I really don't want to happen again. I don't want Tejay or Thibaut win the TDF because of 2014 accident involving these two happen again. Please no bad ju ju.

i know what you mean, but you know that what we say has no bearing on what actually happens at the TdF. That being said, I want everyone to arrive healthy and at 100%

 

[dacooley]

no one remembered bookies that actively until froome began to be ranked #1 favorite which is certainly not welcomed by a certain category of posters. I even tend to think most of them would prefer froome to never reach the highest gc level since without him life would be easier, other riders would win grand tours more regularly especially the tour, wouldn't be necessary to lauch an endless dispute on who's better at 100%... froome really spoils the party and sky ruin pro cycling.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

no one remembered bookies that actively until froome began to be ranked #1 favorite which is certainly not welcomed by a certain category of posters. I even tend to think most of them would prefer froome to never reach the highest gc level since without him life would be easier, other riders would win grand tours more regularly especially the tour, wouldn't be necessary to lauch an endless dispute on who's better at 100%... froome really spoils the party and sky ruin pro cycling.

Are you physically capable of posting something other than complaints about "a certain category of posters" and their "rethorics"?
As for your first sentence... no one remembered the bookies until SeriousSam began actively pushing their odds down our throats to prove Froome's superiority

 

[rick james]

Re:

There has not been a duel since Andy and Contador 2010. It's just too hard to get right

Can't blame the dawg if the rest can't get close to him.

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

no one remembered bookies that actively until froome began to be ranked #1 favorite which is certainly not welcomed by a certain category of posters. I even tend to think most of them would prefer froome to never reach the highest gc level since without him life would be easier, other riders would win grand tours more regularly especially the tour, wouldn't be necessary to lauch an endless dispute on who's better at 100%... froome really spoils the party and sky ruin pro cycling.

Are you physically capable of posting something other than complaints about "a certain category of posters" and their "rethorics"? Like a broken record.

maybe you just should be more tolerant of people with their thoughts and emotions instead of getting wind up for no reason. actually it relates to all of us...

 

[Cannibal72]

Then come TDF. .. BOOM...Left Nibali to cash in.

Agreed, the Astana team's masterclass on the wet cobbles was a key factor in Nibali's victory.

 

[buchanan]

Re: Re:

Based on performances this year, I think it's even between Contador and Quintana (with slight favor to Contador) and then gap to Froome. We'll see if he's improved since his disastrous performance at Catalunya if those rankings are still warranted.

Froome is never strong in Catalunya though. Even last year in Romandie he wasn't quite strong enough to win. I'd say the Dauphine will be the best indicator of form. The 2 Tours he's won Froome has ended the Dauphine in very good form. Last year you could see him getting stronger as the week went on.

I'm going only based on THIS year. Last year was last year.

EDIT: And I will add this is his first year riding as a new father. This is uncharted territory for him in lots of ways (and as a father, I can attest, unless you're an absentee dad, it has an impact). I would add regarding Catalunya, if I recall correctly, he said he was racing to win. In 2015 he was coming off a back injury, which wasn't the case here. So I'll stand by view until he delivers performances that suggests a need to revise the thinking ahead of the next logical measurement point (Dauphine). Remember past is not prologue.

The bookies strongly disagree with you.

'Disastrous performance at Catalunya'. Lol. I don't think you understand professional cycling and cyclists very well. Do you realize Froome is on a completely different buildup to the Tour de France compared with Contador and Quintana? He was using Catalunya purely as a building block for July. Contador was going for an early season peak.

Froome will be much better at Romandie and even more so at the Dauphine. Expect him to be firing on all cylinders in July.

 

[hrotha]

Yeah, no, that'd be the first time since 2012 that Froome hasn't had a proper spring peak. He never uses races just as a building block for the Tour.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

Yeah, no, that'd be the first time since 2012 that Froome hasn't had a proper spring peak. He never uses races just as a building block for the Tour.

His spring was disastrous last year, this year it been better, but not great at all. On the other hand, he has only raced Catalunya, so there aren't too many references. We should wait for Romandie in order to judge Froome v Contador v Quintana IMO.

 

[Publicus]

Re: Re:

Based on performances this year, I think it's even between Contador and Quintana (with slight favor to Contador) and then gap to Froome. We'll see if he's improved since his disastrous performance at Catalunya if those rankings are still warranted.

Froome is never strong in Catalunya though. Even last year in Romandie he wasn't quite strong enough to win. I'd say the Dauphine will be the best indicator of form. The 2 Tours he's won Froome has ended the Dauphine in very good form. Last year you could see him getting stronger as the week went on.

I'm going only based on THIS year. Last year was last year.

EDIT: And I will add this is his first year riding as a new father. This is uncharted territory for him in lots of ways (and as a father, I can attest, unless you're an absentee dad, it has an impact). I would add regarding Catalunya, if I recall correctly, he said he was racing to win. In 2015 he was coming off a back injury, which wasn't the case here. So I'll stand by view until he delivers performances that suggests a need to revise the thinking ahead of the next logical measurement point (Dauphine). Remember past is not prologue.

The bookies strongly disagree with you.

'Disastrous performance at Catalunya'. Lol. I don't think you understand professional cycling and cyclists very well. Do you realize Froome is on a completely different buildup to the Tour de France compared with Contador and Quintana? He was using Catalunya purely as a building block for July. Contador was going for an early season peak.

Froome will be much better at Romandie and even more so at the Dauphine. Expect him to be firing on all cylinders in July.

I have no financial interest in making my pre-Tour rankings, so that's why I disregard bookies as there IS a financial component to their rankings. As for Froome's disastrous Catalunya, I suggest you take it up with him. My recollection is that he was riding to win the race, not as a training block. So given his good form and injury-free, his performance was, in my opinion, disastrous. It happens. It's not the end of the world. But it's a measure of where he is vis-a-vis his TdF competitors.

 

[buchanan]

Re: Re:

Based on performances this year, I think it's even between Contador and Quintana (with slight favor to Contador) and then gap to Froome. We'll see if he's improved since his disastrous performance at Catalunya if those rankings are still warranted.

Froome is never strong in Catalunya though. Even last year in Romandie he wasn't quite strong enough to win. I'd say the Dauphine will be the best indicator of form. The 2 Tours he's won Froome has ended the Dauphine in very good form. Last year you could see him getting stronger as the week went on.

I'm going only based on THIS year. Last year was last year.

EDIT: And I will add this is his first year riding as a new father. This is uncharted territory for him in lots of ways (and as a father, I can attest, unless you're an absentee dad, it has an impact). I would add regarding Catalunya, if I recall correctly, he said he was racing to win. In 2015 he was coming off a back injury, which wasn't the case here. So I'll stand by view until he delivers performances that suggests a need to revise the thinking ahead of the next logical measurement point (Dauphine). Remember past is not prologue.

The bookies strongly disagree with you.

'Disastrous performance at Catalunya'. Lol. I don't think you understand professional cycling and cyclists very well. Do you realize Froome is on a completely different buildup to the Tour de France compared with Contador and Quintana? He was using Catalunya purely as a building block for July. Contador was going for an early season peak.

Froome will be much better at Romandie and even more so at the Dauphine. Expect him to be firing on all cylinders in July.

I have no financial interest in making my pre-Tour rankings, so that's why I disregard bookies as there IS a financial component to their rankings. As for Froome's disastrous Catalunya, I suggest you take it up with him. My recollection is that he was riding to win the race, not as a training block. So given his good form and injury-free, his performance was, in my opinion, disastrous. It happens. It's not the end of the world. But it's a measure of where he is vis-a-vis his TdF competitors.

But the bookie's rankings are for who is the favourite for the Tour de France in JULY. Not for who was in better form at this year's Catalunya in MARCH. Froome was not especially impressive at last year's Catalunya either. He did pretty well at last year's TDF however. And he was not riding for the win at Catalunya a few weeks ago. It was indeed just a building block. Therefore it cannot be called 'disastrous'. I asked him on Twitter and he confirmed it to me.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

Froome is present only in twitter pictures taken by himself grinning while his teammates struggle in the backgound. Meanwhile Bertie disappeared in the Basque woods on Arrate emerging after some 7 Watts/kilo to win Pais Vasco. Who's the boss?

We will see in Dauphine, le Tour, Olimpics and maybe la Vuelta.

At the moment I think Froome is the boss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpyQKurDgMg&nohtml5=False

And this is just one indication, but... willian hill TdF 2016 now,


2.20

Chris Froome

3.25

Nairo Quintana

4.50

Alberto Contador

Based on performances this year, I think it's even between Contador and Quintana (with a slight favor to Contador) and then a gap to Froome. We'll see if he's improved since his disastrous performance at Catalunya if those rankings are still warranted.

That is quite useless. If Froome wins Romandie and Contador is at home, what we said, that Froome is the boss? NO, we need to wait at least till Dauphine, where both of them will be at a similar shape.

In Romandia I think Froome was quite well, not at his best, but similar other years there, the problem was the rain.[/quote]

It's not at all useless. We've only had the three favorites line up at one race. That's the best indication of where they are THIS YEAR. We won't be able to measure their progress vis-a-vis each other until they race again. I hope Quintana races the Dauphine, otherwise we'll only know where Froome and Contador are vis-a-vis each other (and even then, Froome will likely have more race fitness coming from Romandie).

I think you're just as biased towards Froome, as you are against Contador. I'm trying to put forth a consistent comparison method that isn't as dependent on past performance. Until we see Froome performing well against his TdF contemporaries (one or both), it's hard to assess that he's the favorite going into July.[/quote]

If you are a Contador fan you will know that when he has Tour objetive he has 2 peaks in the year. One is 2 month around March and the other one is July. It has been always like this. Contador is in races as Tirreno, Nice, cataluña, Pais Vasco at his best. If he go for the GIro, that could change a little, performing well in those races but not at his best.

And Froome do different. It i true than in SKY use to start season always very strong, but anyway Froome is always building his shape progresively towards le Tour, this year he didnt race Tiireno or Nice, so it is quite different for him, he is like he started season in Cataluña. he is thinking to ride Tour, Olimpics and Vuelta, so he must take it easy this start.

It is at the end of the year to take conclusions, I saw very strong anyway Froome in the last stage of Cataluña in Barcelona.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

Yeah, no, that'd be the first time since 2012 that Froome hasn't had a proper spring peak. He never uses races just as a building block for the Tour.

There was a time he need to demostrate he was the leader instead Wiggo.

Now he has his objetives at the end of the year and he dont want to get ill, so he avoided Europe races at the begining.

He use to be so strong in Romandie as in Dauohine, so it is not really peaking in the spring.

Contador now stop, lose his shape, take a rest and later star again top build up. and he wont be in Dauophine at 100 % as he was in Pais Vasco, maybe at 80-90

Froome is at 80.90 in Romandie and similar in Dauphine.

Sky do always a very itense winter and Froome, as well as the rest big talents when people is not at his best show always how good are them. people as Valverde in February can win everything far of peaking.

That reason Froome is at a good level in Oman, this year in Australia, last year in Andalucia...

But this year anyways is quite different.

 

[Publicus]

Re: Re:

Froome is present only in twitter pictures taken by himself grinning while his teammates struggle in the backgound. Meanwhile Bertie disappeared in the Basque woods on Arrate emerging after some 7 Watts/kilo to win Pais Vasco. Who's the boss?

We will see in Dauphine, le Tour, Olimpics and maybe la Vuelta.

At the moment I think Froome is the boss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpyQKurDgMg&nohtml5=False

And this is just one indication, but... willian hill TdF 2016 now,


2.20

Chris Froome

3.25

Nairo Quintana

4.50

Alberto Contador

Based on performances this year, I think it's even between Contador and Quintana (with a slight favor to Contador) and then a gap to Froome. We'll see if he's improved since his disastrous performance at Catalunya if those rankings are still warranted.

That is quite useless. If Froome wins Romandie and Contador is at home, what we said, that Froome is the boss? NO, we need to wait at least till Dauphine, where both of them will be at a similar shape.

In Romandia I think Froome was quite well, not at his best, but similar other years there, the problem was the rain.

It's not at all useless. We've only had the three favorites line up at one race. That's the best indication of where they are THIS YEAR. We won't be able to measure their progress vis-a-vis each other until they race again. I hope Quintana races the Dauphine, otherwise we'll only know where Froome and Contador are vis-a-vis each other (and even then, Froome will likely have more race fitness coming from Romandie).

I think you're just as biased towards Froome, as you are against Contador. I'm trying to put forth a consistent comparison method that isn't as dependent on past performance. Until we see Froome performing well against his TdF contemporaries (one or both), it's hard to assess that he's the favorite going into July.[/quote]

If you are a Contador fan you will know that when he has Tour objetive he has 2 peaks in the year. One is 2 month around March and the other one is July. It has been always like this. Contador is in races as Tirreno, Nice, cataluña, Pais Vasco at his best. If he go for the GIro, that could change a little, performing well in those races but not at his best.

And Froome do different. It i true than in SKY use to start season always very strong, but anyway Froome is always building his shape progresively towards le Tour, this year he didnt race Tiireno or Nice, so it is quite different for him, he is like he started season in Cataluña. he is thinking to ride Tour, Olimpics and Vuelta, so he must take it easy this start.

It is at the end of the year to take conclusions, I saw very strong anyway Froome in the last stage of Cataluña in Barcelona.[/quote]

I'm not predicating anything I'm saying based upon prior year experiences. I'm only going by their stated goals and their performances this year. I think that's half the problem around here. People are trying to reconcile current performances against prior year performances, which creates this need to rationalize performances. Froome started his season in Australia in January, then elected to do two training blocks. By his and his team's account, he was on really good form coming into Catalunya. I take them at their word and assessed his performance there accordingly. He didn't say he was injured and he didn't lose time because of a mechanical/crash. He lost time because others were better than him on the MTFs. In a race decided by seconds, he lost by 46". For an on-form, uninjured Froome racing for the win, that's not a good sign.

And you're of course right, that at the end of the year we will have perfect information as to how each performed this year. I'm only speaking as of the current point in time, which I'm surprised is causing such consternation. Feel free to disagree, but there's not really a flaw in my approach that I can see (obviously open to reconsidering in light of evidence to the contrary).

 

[Publicus]

Re: Re:

Yeah, no, that'd be the first time since 2012 that Froome hasn't had a proper spring peak. He never uses races just as a building block for the Tour.

There was a time he need to demostrate he was the leader instead Wiggo.

Now he has his objetives at the end of the year and he dont want to get ill, so he avoided Europe races at the begining.

He use to be so strong in Romandie as in Dauohine, so it is not really peaking in the spring.

Contador now stop, lose his shape, take a rest and later star again top build up. and he wont be in Dauophine at 100 % as he was in Pais Vasco, maybe at 80-90

Froome is at 80.90 in Romandie and similar in Dauphine.

Sky do always a very itense winter and Froome, as well as the rest big talents when people is not at his best show always how good are them. people as Valverde in February can win everything far of peaking.

That reason Froome is at a good level in Oman, this year in Australia, last year in Andalucia...

But this year anyways is quite different.

You're introducing a ton of bias into your "analysis."

 

[Valv.Piti]

Whats biased about his analysis?

 

[Publicus]

Re:

Whats biased about his analysis?

I consider it bias if someone rejects a rider/team's statements regarding form and goals and substitute his belief of what the rider's goals are. It's one thing if Froome and Sky said his goals going into 2016 in general, and in particular going into Catalunya, was to build form toward the TdF, but that's not what any of them have said. Introducing prior year performance introduces bias into the analysis IMO. Introducing subjective analysis (his statements regarding why Froome performed better in other years (because he had something to prove) is a self-serving statement unless Froome has actually said that (I don't recall that I've ever heard any such thing).

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

Whats biased about his analysis?

I consider it bias if someone rejects a rider/team's statements regarding form and goals and substitute his belief of what the rider's goals are.

that's a forum nature and 95% of assessments are made like that. nonetheless calling it an 'objective analysis' is a little big over-the-top.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Whats biased about his analysis?

I consider it bias if someone rejects a rider/team's statements regarding form and goals and substitute his belief of what the rider's goals are. It's one thing if Froome and Sky said his goals going into 2016 in general, and in particular going into Catalunya, was to build form toward the TdF, but that's not what any of them have said. Introducing prior year performance introduces bias into the analysis IMO. Introducing subjective analysis (his statements regarding why Froome performed better in other years (because he had something to prove) is a self-serving statement unless Froome has actually said that (I don't recall that I've ever heard any such thing).

Thats fair, but I haven't heard Sky/Froome outline the win as a goal for Catalunya, neither have I heard them regarding Catalunya as a training block or whatever tho. But honestly, I don't think it matters, Romandie is the race that suits CF the most and the race he has had the most success at in the spring

 

[Taxus4a]

I dont know the meaning of bias, thank to explain.

We are here to argue, and if someone put good arguments on the table, is always good, and if i am wrong I will change my mind.

I didnt read everything about SKY objetives. As far as I know SKY go always to win all the races, especially tour races, and for Cataluña Froome was the man.

But Froome has this year as ussually just one an important objetive, TdF. For Contador is the same, he uses his first peak looking at le Tour, but he get a clear peak now and there are victories importat for him.

You have tio take into account the later objetives of Froome, as far as I know Contador is no riding la Vuelta... I hope he changes his mind anyway. He will consider his posibilities, his rivalsoptions and he will take a decission... froome said he want to be there.

if you take that into consideration and the fact he didnt race Tiirreno or Nice is quite normal he want at his best in catalunya.He use to win races at his 80-90 % , but that is not always like that.

At the moment, very good for Contador, but the main race for both of them is TdF, and Froome use to built up for that race progressively or by riding all the previous races at about 80-90 %. From Cataluña to romandie is more or less the same time than from romandie to Dauphiné. it is not the same than to stop in Pais Vasco.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-targeting-2016-tour-de-france-and-rio-olympics-double/

I dont see in this link that cataluña was a big objetive for Froome... thay talk about test, abut he is doing well, about they like to ride this, like Vuelta a España, for the weather, etc...but not as an objetive. Vuelta a españa is notproper an objetive as well, but he will go there to try to win, of coure, but they aim Td F, the most importante race by far of the year, and the olimpics, where he has options in both ITT and the road.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-sky-director-says-froome-will-consider-racing-vuelta-a-espaa-in-2016/

Put me the words of SKY you are talking about and I could give you my opinion of them.

 

[Publicus]

Re: Re:

Whats biased about his analysis?

I consider it bias if someone rejects a rider/team's statements regarding form and goals and substitute his belief of what the rider's goals are. It's one thing if Froome and Sky said his goals going into 2016 in general, and in particular going into Catalunya, was to build form toward the TdF, but that's not what any of them have said. Introducing prior year performance introduces bias into the analysis IMO. Introducing subjective analysis (his statements regarding why Froome performed better in other years (because he had something to prove) is a self-serving statement unless Froome has actually said that (I don't recall that I've ever heard any such thing).

Thats fair, but I haven't heard Sky/Froome outline the win as a goal for Catalunya, neither have I heard them regarding Catalunya as a training block or whatever tho. But honestly, I don't think it matters, Romandie is the race that suits CF the most and the race he has had the most success at in the spring

Here's an article with some pre-race comments from Sky
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/03/news/froome-faces-unfinished-business-at-catalunya_398755

 

[Publicus]

Well by that standard Contador has 2 goals, TdF and Olympics, which is similar to Froome's. So it's incorrect to suggest that Froome has later objectives that explains his result at Catalunya. I've never maintained that Catalunya was a goal for Froome, I just looked at his/his team's statements objectives immediately prior to the race.