Froome Vs. Contador

[Mr.White]

So tell me then who's better in top shape? And when were they in top shape? As if you know that! You can say Froome was in top shape at Tours 2012,13,15 and 16, at the Dauphine 2013,14(until he crashed), 15 and 16 and in couple of Romandie's. And you can tell Contador was not in shape in those events, but he was in Vuelta 2012,14, Tirreno 2014, Pais Vasco 2014, 16 and Giro 2015. And what then?! It's a pure speculation... and that is just so nonsensical!

 

[PremierAndrew]

Well then this is a stupid argument. When Froome beats Contador in 2017, then it will be 'Contador is past his prime, not fair to compare them anymore', which is perfectly valid. The fact is Contador was in his prime 2008-2011 & 2014, and Froome is in his prime 2013-2016. The lack of overlap between these two periods and the lack of a battle where both were 100% between them in 2014 (apart from the first two stages of the Dauphine, where both were about 95%) means that any such comparison between Froome and Contador will ultimately have some holes

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

Since 2013, Froome and Contador has went into the Tour de France targeting to win the race.

Froome won in 2013
They both crashed in 2014 (anyone's guess who is winning - chances are, Nibali still would)
Froome deleted him in 2015, as in 2013
Contador crashed in 2016 and Froome won again

Thats 3 - 0

I'm curious how Froome will do at the Vuelta this year. If Contador "deletes" him we can at least scratch 2015 off that list. Actually we could do that anyway, in 2012 Froome also got wrecked by a fresh Contador, so 2015 doesn't show anything. 2016 is imo also an unfair comparison. Generally I'm annoyed that so many people say one reason why Contador is worse than Froome is his bike handling although Froome has crashed out of a gt as often as Contador. The only difference is that when Froome crashed out Contador never profited from it.
What remains will always be 2013 but we all know that Contador was in bad shape, so this year can be taken into account when you ask who was the better rider over the last years, because Froome never f***** up his preparation, but it doesn't show who of the two is better in top shape.

But it doesnt matter if ones top shape is as good or better (which I also really doubt) when you aren't able to show up in the biggest race, by far, and hand it to your opponents. Didnt in 2013 or 2015 when he had an opportunity, crashed the other two years.
Contador profited from Froome crashing in 2014, then lost 3 minutes to Nibali and crashed out himself.

As I wrote, Froome crashed out in gt's as often as Contador. He is just "lucky" that it happened to him in the Vuelta and not in another tdf. And Contador didn't have a chance in 2015 because he rode the Giro. As I also wrote it before, I don't say Froome doesn't deserve his 3 tdf wins. And I also don't think Contador is still as strong as him even if he doesn't crash, but the point I was trying to make is that even if Contador would have been better than Froome he couldn't have showed it anywhere, because he crashed or because he rode other races like the Giro.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

So tell me then who's better in top shape? And when were they in top shape? As if you know that! You can say Froome was in top shape at Tours 2012,13,15 and 16, at the Dauphine 2013,14(until he crashed), 15 and 16 and in couple of Romandie's. And you can tell Contador was not in shape in those events, but he was in Vuelta 2012,14, Tirreno 2014, Pais Vasco 2014, 16 and Giro 2015. And what then?! It's a pure speculation... and that is just so nonsensical!

Thats what I was trying to say all the time. We just don't know who of the two is better if they would face off in top shape.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Since 2013, Froome and Contador has went into the Tour de France targeting to win the race.

Froome won in 2013
They both crashed in 2014 (anyone's guess who is winning - chances are, Nibali still would)
Froome deleted him in 2015, as in 2013
Contador crashed in 2016 and Froome won again

Thats 3 - 0

I'm curious how Froome will do at the Vuelta this year. If Contador "deletes" him we can at least scratch 2015 off that list. Actually we could do that anyway, in 2012 Froome also got wrecked by a fresh Contador, so 2015 doesn't show anything. 2016 is imo also an unfair comparison. Generally I'm annoyed that so many people say one reason why Contador is worse than Froome is his bike handling although Froome has crashed out of a gt as often as Contador. The only difference is that when Froome crashed out Contador never profited from it.
What remains will always be 2013 but we all know that Contador was in bad shape, so this year can be taken into account when you ask who was the better rider over the last years, because Froome never f***** up his preparation, but it doesn't show who of the two is better in top shape.

But it doesnt matter if ones top shape is as good or better (which I also really doubt) when you aren't able to show up in the biggest race, by far, and hand it to your opponents. Didnt in 2013 or 2015 when he had an opportunity, crashed the other two years.
Contador profited from Froome crashing in 2014, then lost 3 minutes to Nibali and crashed out himself.

As I wrote, Froome crashed out in gt's as often as Contador. He is just "lucky" that it happened to him in the Vuelta and not in another tdf. And Contador didn't have a chance in 2015 because he rode the Giro. As I also wrote it before, I don't say Froome doesn't deserve his 3 tdf wins. And I also don't think Contador is still as strong as him even if he doesn't crash, but the point I was trying to make is that even if Contador would have been better than Froome he couldn't have showed it anywhere, because he crashed or because he rode other races like the Giro.

Don't tell me Contador would have won that Tour in 2015, regardless of the Giro. No way. He wasn't great the whole season.

 

[Singer01]

Re: Re:

So tell me then who's better in top shape? And when were they in top shape? As if you know that! You can say Froome was in top shape at Tours 2012,13,15 and 16, at the Dauphine 2013,14(until he crashed), 15 and 16 and in couple of Romandie's. And you can tell Contador was not in shape in those events, but he was in Vuelta 2012,14, Tirreno 2014, Pais Vasco 2014, 16 and Giro 2015. And what then?! It's a pure speculation... and that is just so nonsensical!

Thats what I was trying to say all the time. We just don't know who of the two is better if they would face off in top shape.

it would also massively depend on the route, and any other number of variables.
Contador v Froome is so similar to Federer v Nadal. AC/RF are more elegant and charismatic, though they peaked earlier meaning some people view some of the earlier victories as 'soft' as not against their main rival, who they are generally much more popular than. CF and RN are by many viewed harshly for coming along with a robotic style relying on brute power rather than guile.

 

[MatParker117]

Re: Re:

Since 2013, Froome and Contador has went into the Tour de France targeting to win the race.

Froome won in 2013
They both crashed in 2014 (anyone's guess who is winning - chances are, Nibali still would)
Froome deleted him in 2015, as in 2013
Contador crashed in 2016 and Froome won again

Thats 3 - 0

I'm curious how Froome will do at the Vuelta this year. If Contador "deletes" him we can at least scratch 2015 off that list. Actually we could do that anyway, in 2012 Froome also got wrecked by a fresh Contador, so 2015 doesn't show anything. 2016 is imo also an unfair comparison. Generally I'm annoyed that so many people say one reason why Contador is worse than Froome is his bike handling although Froome has crashed out of a gt as often as Contador. The only difference is that when Froome crashed out Contador never profited from it.
What remains will always be 2013 but we all know that Contador was in bad shape, so this year can be taken into account when you ask who was the better rider over the last years, because Froome never f***** up his preparation, but it doesn't show who of the two is better in top shape.

But it doesnt matter if ones top shape is as good or better (which I also really doubt) when you aren't able to show up in the biggest race, by far, and hand it to your opponents. Didnt in 2013 or 2015 when he had an opportunity, crashed the other two years.
Contador profited from Froome crashing in 2014, then lost 3 minutes to Nibali and crashed out himself.

As I wrote, Froome crashed out in gt's as often as Contador. He is just "lucky" that it happened to him in the Vuelta and not in another tdf. And Contador didn't have a chance in 2015 because he rode the Giro. As I also wrote it before, I don't say Froome doesn't deserve his 3 tdf wins. And I also don't think Contador is still as strong as him even if he doesn't crash, but the point I was trying to make is that even if Contador would have been better than Froome he couldn't have showed it anywhere, because he crashed or because he rode other races like the Giro.

Don't tell me Contador would have won that Tour in 2015, regardless of the Giro. No way. He wasn't great the whole season.

Hasn't been great this year, looks like he's lost a bit of zip in his climbing.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Hasn't been great this year, looks like he's lost a bit of zip in his climbing.

That's not quite true. Look at Malhão, Col d'Eze and the Pais Vasco and Dauphiné ITTs. His numbers were equal to those in his best years. I also think it is unfair to say "he hasn't been great this year" while he finished on the podium in 4 stage races, 3 of them on WT level, winning Pais Vasco.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

Hasn't been great this year, looks like he's lost a bit of zip in his climbing.

Thats simply wrong.

 

[cantpedal]

Re: Re:

So tell me then who's better in top shape? And when were they in top shape? As if you know that! You can say Froome was in top shape at Tours 2012,13,15 and 16, at the Dauphine 2013,14(until he crashed), 15 and 16 and in couple of Romandie's. And you can tell Contador was not in shape in those events, but he was in Vuelta 2012,14, Tirreno 2014, Pais Vasco 2014, 16 and Giro 2015. And what then?! It's a pure speculation... and that is just so nonsensical!

Thats what I was trying to say all the time. We just don't know who of the two is better if they would face off in top shape.

It doesn't matter... if both showed up in their ultimate peak form the losers fans would declare their rider wasn't in top shape and if my boy had only been in a previous years shape he would have crushed him. That's the way this forum works.

the only thing we know for sure is Andy 2010 would crush Andy 2016

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

So tell me then who's better in top shape? And when were they in top shape? As if you know that! You can say Froome was in top shape at Tours 2012,13,15 and 16, at the Dauphine 2013,14(until he crashed), 15 and 16 and in couple of Romandie's. And you can tell Contador was not in shape in those events, but he was in Vuelta 2012,14, Tirreno 2014, Pais Vasco 2014, 16 and Giro 2015. And what then?! It's a pure speculation... and that is just so nonsensical!

Thats what I was trying to say all the time. We just don't know who of the two is better if they would face off in top shape.

It doesn't matter... if both showed up in their ultimate peak form the losers fans would declare their rider wasn't in top shape and if my boy had only been in a previous years shape he would have crushed him. That's the way this forum works.

the only thing we know for sure is Andy 2010 would crush Andy 2016

Thats true, but do you honestly think we saw the two riding against each other in top shape?

 

[cantpedal]

Re: Re:

So tell me then who's better in top shape? And when were they in top shape? As if you know that! You can say Froome was in top shape at Tours 2012,13,15 and 16, at the Dauphine 2013,14(until he crashed), 15 and 16 and in couple of Romandie's. And you can tell Contador was not in shape in those events, but he was in Vuelta 2012,14, Tirreno 2014, Pais Vasco 2014, 16 and Giro 2015. And what then?! It's a pure speculation... and that is just so nonsensical!

Thats what I was trying to say all the time. We just don't know who of the two is better if they would face off in top shape.

It doesn't matter... if both showed up in their ultimate peak form the losers fans would declare their rider wasn't in top shape and if my boy had only been in a previous years shape he would have crushed him. That's the way this forum works.

the only thing we know for sure is Andy 2010 would crush Andy 2016

Thats true, but do you honestly think we saw the two riding against each other in top shape?

No I think its impossible these days. Even within a GT the riders Peak if timed right only lasts a week or so. I think Froome has been able to time and reach it more consistently than anyone recently, that's his biggest advantage.

 

[dacooley]

the concept of 'being in tip top shape' itself even for 1 rider is SOOOO relative, conditional and discrete, that attempts to compare 2 different riders reaching their hypothetical peak of form is something really jokey...

 

[filipepc]

Re: Re:

So tell me then who's better in top shape? And when were they in top shape? As if you know that! You can say Froome was in top shape at Tours 2012,13,15 and 16, at the Dauphine 2013,14(until he crashed), 15 and 16 and in couple of Romandie's. And you can tell Contador was not in shape in those events, but he was in Vuelta 2012,14, Tirreno 2014, Pais Vasco 2014, 16 and Giro 2015. And what then?! It's a pure speculation... and that is just so nonsensical!

Thats what I was trying to say all the time. We just don't know who of the two is better if they would face off in top shape.

It doesn't matter... if both showed up in their ultimate peak form the losers fans would declare their rider wasn't in top shape and if my boy had only been in a previous years shape he would have crushed him. That's the way this forum works.

the only thing we know for sure is Andy 2010 would crush Andy 2016

Thats true, but do you honestly think we saw the two riding against each other in top shape?

No I think its impossible these days. Even within a GT the riders Peak if timed right only lasts a week or so. I think Froome has been able to time and reach it more consistently than anyone recently, that's his biggest advantage.

In some way that is normal. Froome is younger and he is in is top days in career. The problem is that we are talking about 2 guys that had passed very diferent situations for the last years, and they don´t have the some age what make a lot of a diference...

Froome is a huge rider, and has the best team of cycling i ever seen. To me stronger than Discovery. Would he be able to do the some in a weak team? We don´t know. He would be more exposed, he would have to react more often, and so on, so on.

In the general to me Contador is a better rider, and in the end i still think he will have a better palmares when both careers end, but Froome is a unique rider, has a capacity to make crazy accelarations like no one does, and is a top class rider.

I prefer one, but like the other too.

Talking about this vuelta, i admit that if Froome participates Contador as to win, because with a tour in the legs Froome is weaker and should not be able to do that crazy attacks he use to... Let´see. I just want no one as a crash...

 

[Gigs_98]

When I talk about top shape I don't really mean the best shape they have ever had. I only mean that a rider had a good preperation for a race for which he peaked. If Contador and Froome hadn't crashed out in 2014 we would have had that situation, or if Contador hadn't crashed out in the tdf this year. The only example which works on paper is the tdf 2013 but Contador was so horrible there that it's also not a very good comparison.

 

[cantpedal]

It's nice to see I'm not the only one that likes and appreciates both of them. I don't get the hate for either of them. Any race they are both in is so much better for it.

 

[filipepc]

When I talk about top shape I don't really mean the best shape they have ever had. I only mean that a rider had a good preperation for a race for which he peaked. If Contador and Froome hadn't crashed out in 2014 we would have had that situation, or if Contador hadn't crashed out in the tdf this year. The only example which works on paper is the tdf 2013 but Contador was so horrible there that it's also not a very good comparison.

Ok, but people must understand that the 3 years that separate both make a lot diference.

And even their type of careers are so diferent... You see, Froome in is 20´s was a normal rider, withOut any result that indicate that he would be who he is today. Zero results in a top race ( not even talking about a GT)...

His firsT participation he made 84º place with 23 years. With 24 years he made 36º in giro, and with 25 years he didn´t even participate in a GT.
Then he appears from shaddows, with 26 and make that excelent vuelta with Cobo... The rest we all know... Today he is a top rider. Huge rider. He won his first GT with 28 years.

Contador is a diferent story... He had that health problem, but started to win sooner. He was the best rider in GT´s but that stop in his career i think that made some scratches in him...

But he comeback and win 1 GT every years besides 2013, since 2007 to 2015... That is fantastic.

We will never be able to see the best Contador against the best Froome, but We can dream at least 1 more time ( even if i thin with Froome stronger) a good fight against them next year.

This year in the vuelta to me Contador as to win, if he doesn´t ( or at least if he don´t have a better result than Froome) that is a bad indication, or THE INDICATION that everyone as his time in professional sport. Federer is a top guy, but today he is not the number 1... This is normal.

I just ask for 1 more good battle between them, and with a strong TREK ( AT LEAST THAT) against the best ever team in the world of cycling.

Just to finish, i think Contador can achieve more 1 or 2 GT ( even if it is not the Tour), and Froome he can do more 2 or 3 GT´S ( PROBABLY JUST THE TOUR).

 

[filipepc]

Re:

It's nice to see I'm not the only one that likes and appreciates both of them. I don't get the hate for either of them. Any race they are both in is so much better for it.[/quoS

Sure. Normal people love cycling, and even if it is normal to have is favorite guy, we can enjoy the race if it is a good one even if "our" rider loose.

So i think it is always better to cycling to have Froome, Contador Quintana, Nibali, Aru, Landa, all in top shape...

Loving cycling is all about that. And i really love to se Froome attacking Contador even if i prefer Contador. I enjoy the race, the show. What i don´t enjoy is a race like the last Tour. I really prefer a good fight.

 

[Ataraxus]

When I talk about top shape I don't really mean the best shape they have ever had. I only mean that a rider had a good preperation for a race for which he peaked. If Contador and Froome hadn't crashed out in 2014 we would have had that situation, or if Contador hadn't crashed out in the tdf this year. The only example which works on paper is the tdf 2013 but Contador was so horrible there that it's also not a very good comparison.

I kept boldening and replying to your statements but now I get it. You clearly must refer to a comparison between a top form Contador and a top form Froome IN A GT.

If that's not the case, I'm going to repeat it once more (In case you've missed it) that you still have the first two stages of the Dauphine 2014.

They distanced everyone in the first MTF the second day and they both beat Jungels, Boom, Kiryenka, Van Garderen, Inxausti, Thomas, etc in a 10.8 km ITT.
When was the last time Contador beat all those guys in a flat ITT?
Ok, both their form might have improved come the Tour, and there is a (tiny IMHO) possibility that Contador might have overcome Froome result-wise in that Tour but it is a given that Contador really had a very good form in that Dauphine.
The end result is that we were unlucky to witness that titan clash in that Tour. This is the game and we cannot change the cards we are dealt. The only option we have is to play it by the cards we've got in our hands, which are the Cards of Dauphine 2014, 2016. Vueltas 2012, 2014. Andalucia 2015. Tour 2013, 2015. etc. etc.
And of course those cards do not have equal weight.

Very important P.S: If one wants to make it (the top form comparison), (s)he will find a way. If one doesn't, (s)he will find an excuse.