Froome Vs. Contador

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Chaves vs A Yates

Head firmly in the sand

It's best understood as a religious impulse rather than a cycling assessment. He may have been nailed to a cross, buried in a tomb and then ascended into heaven, but someday the Contador will return in glory. The believers shall be exalted, the faithless cast down etc etc etc.

Yes exactly

I loved how Oliwright wrote Dumoulin can beat Froome yet the two most successful GC riders of the last decade, Contador and Nibali, cannot, despite both having beaten Froome in recent years, because "Froome has shown that he is better than Contador (as he is in decline) and he beat Nibali by 8:36 in 2015."

 

[rick james]

Again if all on top form, they can't live with Froome

 

[LaFlorecita]

2015 Giro Contador Wins against one of the weakest Giro fields in recent years.
Aru hasn't proved he is a top 5 GC rider yet and Andrey Amador was in 4th in that Giro.

Really?
2007
1 Di Luca 2 A Schleck 3 Mazzoleni
2008
1 Contador 2 Ricco 3 Bruseghin
2009
1 Menchov 2 Pellizotti 3 Sastre
2010
1 Basso 2 Arroyo 3 Nibali
2011
1 Contador 2 Scarponi 3 Nibali
2012
1 Hesjedal 2 Rodriguez 3 De Gendt
2013
1 Nibali 2 Uran 3 Evans
2014
1 Quintana 2 Uran 3 Aru
2015
1 Contador 2 Aru 3 Landa
2016
1 Nibali 2 Chaves 3 Valverde

I'd even consider 2015 rather strong compared to the other years, especially considering the strength of the Astana team.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Again if all on top form, they can't live with Froome

Has Froome shown he can live with top form Contador? Didn't think so.

 

[dacooley]

Ac has much better palmares, but froome is a superior gc rider as of august 2016. The next station to reconsider opinions is the 2017 tour. The endless saga about tip top forms is tiresome, senseless and fanboyish.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Chaves vs A Yates

Head firmly in the sand

It's best understood as a religious impulse rather than a cycling assessment. He may have been nailed to a cross, buried in a tomb and then ascended into heaven, but someday the Contador will return in glory. The believers shall be exalted, the faithless cast down etc etc etc.

And it's been like that for years now. To be fair, the same delusion can be found in other sports too

I might invest some time generating the analgous Contador Boom Bust Cycle pic

 

[Vladivar]

Re: Chaves vs A Yates

Head firmly in the sand

It's best understood as a religious impulse rather than a cycling assessment. He may have been nailed to a cross, buried in a tomb and then ascended into heaven, but someday the Contador will return in glory. The believers shall be exalted, the faithless cast down etc etc etc.

Yes exactly

I loved how Oliwright wrote Dumoulin can beat Froome yet the two most successful GC riders of the last decade, Contador and Nibali, cannot, despite both having beaten Froome in recent years, because "Froome has shown that he is better than Contador (as he is in decline) and he beat Nibali by 8:36 in 2015."

Hi, just joined but i have read here for a numbers of years and have always enjoyed your endearing posts about Bertie.

In my humble opinion it is a shame we will never see Bertie and Dawg race together at their peak as it would have been epic. Sadly time waits for no man and Bertie is on a slow decline as Froome's powers increase.

 

[Ataraxus]

From another thread where it was off topic and I probably annoyed most people there with the topic.
viewtopic.php?p=1993588#p1993588

So, I want to make this clear. I never said Contador would have won the tour de france this year if he hadn't crashed. I even wrote in a few threads that I think Froome would have won anyway so I didn't want to underrate him. The only reason why I wrote the comment was because it was a response to someone who said "Froome has shown that he is better than Contador" and imo that is simply wrong. If someone says Froome has shown that he is stronger than Bernhard Kohl it's also wrong. We can be pretty sure that it's the case but he didn't show it anywhere.

Froome has shown he's stronger than anybody in current peloton, including Contador! It dates from 2012 until now. He's the dominant GT rider today, like Contador was 2007-2011, Armstrong 1999-2005, Indurain 1991-1995, etc...

When I bring up the argument "Froome has never shown he is stronger than Contador because they never faced off when both were in top shape" you can't just counter the argument by saying "Froome has shown he is stronger than anybody". Discussing doesn't work like that. As I wrote in the other thread, show me one example where both were in top shape and rode against each other. There just isn't one.

Not that I disagree with it, but you know what would have been a more constructive argument than the first bolded? The second bolded with a slight modification which goes like this: " Show me an example where they raced against each other and they were in top form or closest to top form". Differently put: What is (are) the most ideal medium(s) of comparison between Top form Froome and Top form Bertie.

IMO the most ideal mediums are in the following order (I've expressed them months ago, but it needs an update):
1-Dauphine 2014 first two stages
2- Dauphine 2015
3- Vuelta 2014

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

Dauphine '14 and Vuelta '14 are the closest we've gotten, and Contador spanked Froome in both.

He only beat Froome in Dauphine after Froome was effected by a bad crash, the Vuelta 14 was where both effected by crashes

Dauphine 2015 Froome beats Contador

So should Contador defeat Froome in this years Vuelta we can say that it was an even match with both at the same level? I really don't think you are going to co-sign that one.

No, since Froome would have had 10 days to prepare for the Vuelta.

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

Ac has much better palmares, but froome is a superior gc rider as of august 2016. The next station to reconsider opinions is the 2017 tour. The endless saga about tip top forms is tiresome, senseless and fanboyish.

This.

 

[Oliwright]

Re: Chaves vs A Yates

Head firmly in the sand

It's best understood as a religious impulse rather than a cycling assessment. He may have been nailed to a cross, buried in a tomb and then ascended into heaven, but someday the Contador will return in glory. The believers shall be exalted, the faithless cast down etc etc etc.

Yes exactly

I loved how Oliwright wrote Dumoulin can beat Froome yet the two most successful GC riders of the last decade, Contador and Nibali, cannot, despite both having beaten Froome in recent years, because "Froome has shown that he is better than Contador (as he is in decline) and he beat Nibali by 8:36 in 2015."

Nibali has never beaten Froome in a GT that both of them have finished since 2009 Giro. So your wrong there.
Contador isn't at his best anymore, Froome beat contador in 2013 Tour and lost to him in the 2014 Vuelta. For me and many others it's clear who is a better GC rider in 2016.

Dumoulin has a better chance than them imo if we see a tour like 2012.
Quintana is the only rider who has come close to beating Froome in recent years.

 

[Oliwright]

Not that I disagree with it, but you know what would have been a more constructive argument than the first bolded? The second bolded with a slight modification which goes like this: " Show me an example where they raced against each other and they were in top form or closest to top form". Differently put: What is (are) the most ideal medium(s) of comparison between Top form Froome and Top form Bertie.

IMO the most ideal mediums are in the following order (I've expressed them months ago, but it needs an update):
1-Dauphine 2014 first two stages
2- Dauphine 2015
3- Vuelta 2014[/quote][/quote]

2013 Tour?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Look it's fairly simple:

Point 1 Purely based on palmares who is the best GC rider - Alberto
Point 2 Purely based on results who has been the best GC rider in recent years - Froome

In recent years Froome has gotten the best results also in direct confrontations but the difference is not as large as some make it out to be. Also you have to admit it could have looked much different if Contador had not crashed out in 2014 and 2016 which were his two best seasons since his ban in which he even reached levels we saw in his best years. Besides that Contador raced and won the Giro in 2015 which obviously prevented him from being in contention for the win at the Tour, however I realize it is unlikely he would have won because he wasn't in great shape that season. But of course it would have been way closer.
It has also been mentioned that Froome has beaten Contador more often than the other way around and Dauphiné gets mentioned a lot but it should be said that this is probably one of the best races for Froome and one of the worst for Contador - I don't mean how the parcours suits them but rather in terms of their performance here relative to other points in the season.
I would have loved to see Froome go up against Contador at Pais Vasco in 2014 and 2016 or Tirreno in 2014.

Similarly Contador's overall palmares beats Froome's hands down but Froome could still add to his for many years to come whereas Contador seems to have just 1 season left.

Point 3 Who is the best when both are in their best form possible at this point in their careers - it is anyone's guess as we haven't seen them race against each other in top form
Point 4 Who would be the best if both raced each other in the form of their lives i.e. at their career peak - it is even more of a mystery

Obviously we all have our opinions about these questions but the reality is that we have no way of finding out the answer. We only have our own beliefs and opinions. Personally I think it would be a hard battle between the two but I think Alberto would have the biggest chance of ending up on top simply because he is one tough cookie.
Of course Froome fans are likely to feel differently which is why, as I said, it is just a matter of beliefs and opinions.
Honestly this constant going back and forth between two parties that are never going to convince each other is really boring. There is nothing that hasn't been said already, most arguments are purely emotional and irrational and any "evidence" provided by either party to support their point of view is tenuous at best.

 

[LaFlorecita]

2013 Tour?

You cannot seriously think that was top form Contador.
Contador in top form pushes 6.5W/kg on climbs, not 5.5

 

[Ataraxus]

Not that I disagree with it, but you know what would have been a more constructive argument than the first bolded? The second bolded with a slight modification which goes like this: " Show me an example where they raced against each other and they were in top form or closest to top form". Differently put: What is (are) the most ideal medium(s) of comparison between Top form Froome and Top form Bertie.

IMO the most ideal mediums are in the following order (I've expressed them months ago, but it needs an update):
1-Dauphine 2014 first two stages
2- Dauphine 2015
3- Vuelta 2014

[/quote]

2013 Tour?[/quote]

2013 Tour had only one indication of a top form Contador. His own quotes about his numbers being the best ever prior to the Tour. And I don't believe any of them.

 

[Oliwright]

I'm not saying 2013 is all we should go off, but it's the only GT where both have had a clean run up. (As in no crashes or not racing the giro).
If 2013 Tour is irrelevant so is the 2014 Vuelta.

 

[Oliwright]

Re:

Look it's fairly simple:

Point 1 Purely based on palmares who is the best GC rider - Alberto
Point 2 Purely based on results who has been the best GC rider in recent years - Froome

In recent years Froome has gotten the best results also in direct confrontations but the difference is not as large as some make it out to be. Also you have to admit it could have looked much different if Contador had not crashed out in 2014 and 2016 which were his two best seasons since his ban in which he even reached levels we saw in his best years. Besides that Contador raced and won the Giro in 2015 which obviously prevented him from being in contention for the win at the Tour, however I realize it is unlikely he would have won because he wasn't in great shape that season. But of course it would have been way closer.
It has also been mentioned that Froome has beaten Contador more often than the other way around and Dauphiné gets mentioned a lot but it should be said that this is probably one of the best races for Froome and one of the worst for Contador - I don't mean how the parcours suits them but rather in terms of their performance here relative to other points in the season.
I would have loved to see Froome go up against Contador at Pais Vasco in 2014 and 2016 or Tirreno in 2014.

Similarly Contador's overall palmares beats Froome's hands down but Froome could still add to his for many years to come whereas Contador seems to have just 1 season left.

Point 3 Who is the best when both are in their best form possible at this point in their careers - it is anyone's guess as we haven't seen them race against each other in top form
Point 4 Who would be the best if both raced each other in the form of their lives i.e. at their career peak - it is even more of a mystery

Obviously we all have our opinions about these questions but the reality is that we have no way of finding out the answer. We only have our own beliefs and opinions. Personally I think it would be a hard battle between the two but I think Alberto would have the biggest chance of ending up on top simply because he is one tough cookie.
Of course Froome fans are likely to feel differently which is why, as I said, it is just a matter of beliefs and opinions.
Honestly this constant going back and forth between two parties that are never going to convince each other is really boring. There is nothing that hasn't been said already, most arguments are purely emotional and irrational and any "evidence" provided by either party to support their point of view is tenuous at best.

very well written

 

[Pantani Attacks]

I'm not saying 2013 is all we should go off, but it's the only GT where both have had a clean run up. (As in no crashes or not racing the giro).
If 2013 Tour is irrelevant so is the 2014 Vuelta.

How convenient of you...

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

Why the ****ing **** would you ****ing want to have that ****ing conversation about ****ing Froome vs ****ing Contador yet again.

well put.

Actually it didn't make much sense. There was to many asterisks.

 

[Red Rick]

Replace all the **** with thing that are typically ****'d, and it makes a lot of **** I mean *****, *** I mean it makes sense.

 

[Cannibal72]

Re:

Why the ****ing **** would you ****ing want to have that ****ing conversation about ****ing Froome vs ****ing Contador yet again.

On another note, hrotha, what's your opinion of Peter Sagan's riding, personality, and general demeanour?

 

[dacooley]

froome or contador at their best don't push 6.5 w/kg on really serious climbs and in the meantime 5.5 w/kg will not give you finishing the tour in 4th place.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I'm not saying 2013 is all we should go off, but it's the only GT where both have had a clean run up. (As in no crashes or not racing the giro).
If 2013 Tour is irrelevant so is the 2014 Vuelta.

And it was also Contador's worst season since 2004. I don't see how 2014 is similar? Both were in decent shape but obviously not at their best.

 

[dacooley]

messing up prep is no way in hell an excuse. ability to prepare oneself for the race optimally is a part of the game and all the of big boys play with fire of not doing it every year. yes, the 2013 tour doesnot display ac real level in any sense, but still that's indicative as it reminds about what can happen if something goes wrong with your prep. for sure froome had a period of being noname in grand tours which mustn't be forgotten. notwithstanding as to the present day, ac showing himself on the 2013 tour level seems way more likely than froome being overthrown back to his 07-10 basics in any single grand tour.

 

[damian13ster]

The ending argument in here is that they both targeted the biggest cycling race in the world 4 times in last 4 years (well, Contador 3.5 times since he had the Giro, though he still tried to peak for july, not may.
In those 4 years Froome won that biggest race 3 times, Contador 0. Really, thats the only argument needed here.
And those talking about bad circumstances: failed preparations (through own mistakes), and crashing twice (both because of own mistake) are entirely riders fault. Luckily GTs are still more than about who can push the most watts uphill