Froome Vs. Contador

[LaFlorecita]

In those 4 years Froome won that biggest race 3 times, Contador 0. Really, thats the only argument needed here.

No, it really isn't, unless the discussion is about "who has been the most successful Tour rider in the past 4 years". I don't think that's the case.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

messing up prep is no way in hell an excuse. ability to prepare oneself for the race optimally is a part of the game and all the of big boys play with fire of not doing it every year. yes, the 2013 tour doesnot display ac real level in any sense, but still that's indicative as it reminds about what can happen if something goes wrong with your prep. for sure froome had a period of being noname in grand tours which mustn't be forgotten. notwithstanding as to the present day, ac showing himself on the 2013 tour level seems way more likely than froome being overthrown back to his 07-10 basics in any single grand tour.

Put Contador on team Sky and he'd always be at his 2009 level.
Yes, he messed up his preparation in 2013 and it's his own fault, it's not an excuse. But it is an explanation for his poor performance and that explanation must be considered when we are discussing who would be the best in top shape

No one ever said that the 2013 Tour shouldn't count as a win for Froome because Contador messed up his preparation. The only point is that it shouldn't be added to the equation when discussing who would be the best in top form.

 

[Oliwright]

Ultimately Froome's era has been since 2012.
Whilst Contador's was at his best from 07-11. Personally i count those 10&11 wins as his.

So we will never know who is best at their Peak.
There hasn't been enough clear opportunities to argue that for 100% sure Froome or Contador is better than the other.
But we all have our own opinions.

With how strong, innovative and well funded Sky are I can only see them being just as strong over the next 2-3 years. Froome's shown that despite the course, 15&16 weren't the best suited to him, that he can be dominant.

So let's speak Hypothetically if he wins 1 or 2 more Tours. Where does he rank vs Contador then?

 

[damian13ster]

Well, Contador was lucky in 09-11 because Froome constantly messed up his prep and thats why he wasnt on his top level You guys seriously crack me up

 

[LaFlorecita]

Well, Contador was lucky in 09-11 because Froome constantly messed up his prep and thats why he wasnt on his top level You guys seriously crack me up

Did you even read my post? I specifically wrote that no one ever said that Froome was "lucky" in 2013 or that the win doesn't count.

 

[damian13ster]

Well, Contador was lucky in 09-11 because Froome constantly messed up his prep and thats why he wasnt on his top level You guys seriously crack me up

Did you even read my post? I specifically wrote that no one ever said that Froome was "lucky" in 2013 or that the win doesn't count.

I read your post. Did you read mine? Did I say that Contadors 2009 win doesnt count? The point is that Contador was dominant rider back then and Froome is now the best cyclist.

 

[LaFlorecita]

So let's speak Hypothetically if he wins 1 or 2 more Tours. Where does he rank vs Contador then?

Depends on what else he wins. Of course, Contador might add to his tally as well. IMO, even 5 or 6 TDF wins doesn't beat 3 wins in each GT. Look at Armstrong vs Indurain. I guess what it comes down to is, we know he can win TDF's. Another win doesn't add that much. Variety is better.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I read your post. Did you read mine? Did I say that Contadors 2009 win doesnt count?

No, but you said "Contador was lucky in 2009-2011 because Froome messed up his preparation" and "you guys crack me up", which would make it seem like you're simply using Contador fans' logic reversed. Except, Contador fans never used that "logic".

 

[damian13ster]

So let's speak Hypothetically if he wins 1 or 2 more Tours. Where does he rank vs Contador then?

Depends on what else he wins. Of course, Contador might add to his tally as well. IMO, even 5 or 6 TDF wins doesn't beat 3 wins in each GT. Look at Armstrong vs Indurain. I guess what it comes down to is, we know he can win TDF's. Another win doesn't add that much. Variety is better.

You should have added imho to that last sentence. For me winning Giro + Vuelta over for example any of those twice doesnt make rider more well-rounded. Targetting less prestigious GTs just because you fail at winning the biggest and most prestigious one doesnt make you a better cyclist. Everyone, including Contador, knows it (just look at his priorities post 2010). Ultimately all of GTs sre about climbing, recovery, staying on the bike, and TTs. Just because climbs are slightly different it still doesnt change the beforementioned fact. Variety is addig monuments, classics, world/olympic medals to GTs like Valverde and Nibali have done

 

[damian13ster]

I read your post. Did you read mine? Did I say that Contadors 2009 win doesnt count?

No, but you said "Contador was lucky in 2009-2011 because Froome messed up his preparation" and "you guys crack me up", which would make it seem like you're simply using Contador fans' logic reversed. Except, Contador fans never used that "logic".

Well, you use riders own mistakes such as bad prep or crashes through own mistakes as reasons for not showing his 'real level'.
The point is that messing up preparations and being poor at bike handling are also characteristics of an athlete. And the truth is that for past 4-5 years Contador is an inferior athlete to Froome.
In 2007-2011 he was superior for the very same reasons. He was prepared and performed in biggest races. Froome didnt

 

[LaFlorecita]

You should have added imho to that last sentence.

Do I seriously have to add "IMO" to every single sentence in my post to show it is MY opinion? Is once not enough? Sheesh, you're desperate.

 

[damian13ster]

You should have added imho to that last sentence.

Do I seriously have to add "IMO" to every single sentence in my post to show it is MY opinion? Is once not enough? Sheesh, you're desperate.

Sorry, didnt notice it in your post. My bad. But noticing a small mistake (that has pretty much nothing to do with the point of the post) and making a petty post about it that also conveniently doesnt address any of the arguments...... And you call me desperate?

 

[del1962]

It seems like an error I made saying Dauphine 2015 instead of 2016 has been perpetuated in some other posts

 

[LaFlorecita]

Sorry, didnt notice it in your post. My bad. But noticing a small mistake (that has pretty much nothing to do with the point of the post) and making a petty post about it that also conveniently doesnt address any of the arguments...... And you call me desperate?

I really don't have much to say except that I obviously disagree. I am just tired of this discussion so I will refer you to the long post I made last night on this subject.

 

[Red Rick]

This again. Wake me up when september ends..... or when we find a new angle that's either not discussed before or totally biased crap

 

[Hugo Koblet]

So let's speak Hypothetically if he wins 1 or 2 more Tours. Where does he rank vs Contador then?

Depends on what else he wins. Of course, Contador might add to his tally as well. IMO, even 5 or 6 TDF wins doesn't beat 3 wins in each GT. Look at Armstrong vs Indurain. I guess what it comes down to is, we know he can win TDF's. Another win doesn't add that much. Variety is better.

I don't really agree with this. In terms of Grand Tours, variety doesn't matter that much because the Tour is just so much more prestigious than the other Grand Tours. For instance, Bobet, LeMond and Froome all rank much higher than Nibali even though Nibali has won more Grand Tours. The other Grand Tours only really matter much if they are part of the double which is why Indurain ranks higher than Armstrong (though some might have a different opinion on that as well). If Froome wins a fourth Tour, I'd still rate him below Contador, but a fifth Tour would make Froome surpass Contador in my opinion.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

2015 Giro Contador Wins against one of the weakest Giro fields in recent years.
Aru hasn't proved he is a top 5 GC rider yet and Andrey Amador was in 4th in that Giro.

Really?
2007
1 Di Luca 2 A Schleck 3 Mazzoleni
2008
1 Contador 2 Ricco 3 Bruseghin
2009
1 Menchov 2 Pellizotti 3 Sastre
2010
1 Basso 2 Arroyo 3 Nibali
2011
1 Contador 2 Scarponi 3 Nibali
2012
1 Hesjedal 2 Rodriguez 3 De Gendt
2013
1 Nibali 2 Uran 3 Evans
2014
1 Quintana 2 Uran 3 Aru
2015
1 Contador 2 Aru 3 Landa
2016
1 Nibali 2 Chaves 3 Valverde

I'd even consider 2015 rather strong compared to the other years, especially considering the strength of the Astana team.

There are definitely some weak podiums and it's hard to rate them against each other, but I definitely think that the opposition Contador faced in the 2015 Giro was moderate at best. He was up against Aru who hadn't exactly shown that he was a top GT rider, although of course a very promising one, and who was riding for second place; and Landa who hadn't ever shown anything as a GT rider (and not since either) and who wasn't even allowed to attack.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I don't really agree with this. In terms of Grand Tours, variety doesn't matter that much because the Tour is just so much more prestigious than the other Grand Tours. For instance, Bobet, LeMond and Froome all rank much higher than Nibali even though Nibali has won more Grand Tours. The other Grand Tours only really matter much if they are part of the double which is why Indurain ranks higher than Armstrong (though some might have a different opinion on that as well). If Froome wins a fourth Tour, I'd still rate him below Contador, but a fifth Tour would make Froome surpass Contador in my opinion.

Well that's fair enough, we don't have to agree.

 

[Kokoso]

This is matter of opinion thing. Can't you just agree on that and stay out of "you are desperate" petty posts? LaFlo worships Contador, why for God's sake would she agree that Froomes palmates are better and he is better rider?

My opinion is - it makes no sense to compare pre Froome era because he wasn't there. Since Froome is GC rider he's obviously the better one.

This is matter of opinion thing. Can't you just agree on that and stay out of "you are desperate" petty posts? LaFlo worships Contador, why for God's sake would she agree that Froomes palmates are better and he is better rider?

My opinion is - it makes no sense to compare pre Froome era because he wasn't there. Since Froome is GC rider he's obviously the better one.

Damian13ster is spot on.

P.S. Contadors fan would deny he's cyclist if it suits their argument so really no point in arguing from another point of view. I don't know about Froome's though, maybe they are the same.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Since 2013, Froome and Contador has went into the Tour de France targeting to win the race.

Froome won in 2013
They both crashed in 2014 (anyone's guess who is winning - chances are, Nibali still would)
Froome deleted him in 2015, as in 2013
Contador crashed in 2016 and Froome won again

Thats 3 - 0

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

Since 2013, Froome and Contador has went into the Tour de France targeting to win the race.

Froome won in 2013
They both crashed in 2014 (anyone's guess who is winning - chances are, Nibali still would)
Froome deleted him in 2015, as in 2013
Contador crashed in 2016 and Froome won again

Thats 3 - 0

I'm curious how Froome will do at the Vuelta this year. If Contador "deletes" him we can at least scratch 2015 off that list. Actually we could do that anyway, in 2012 Froome also got wrecked by a fresh Contador, so 2015 doesn't show anything. 2016 is imo also an unfair comparison. Generally I'm annoyed that so many people say one reason why Contador is worse than Froome is his bike handling although Froome has crashed out of a gt as often as Contador. The only difference is that when Froome crashed out Contador never profited from it.
What remains will always be 2013 but we all know that Contador was in bad shape, so this year can be taken into account when you ask who was the better rider over the last years, because Froome never f***** up his preparation, but it doesn't show who of the two is better in top shape.

 

[Gigs_98]

From another thread where it was off topic and I probably annoyed most people there with the topic.
viewtopic.php?p=1993588#p1993588

So, I want to make this clear. I never said Contador would have won the tour de france this year if he hadn't crashed. I even wrote in a few threads that I think Froome would have won anyway so I didn't want to underrate him. The only reason why I wrote the comment was because it was a response to someone who said "Froome has shown that he is better than Contador" and imo that is simply wrong. If someone says Froome has shown that he is stronger than Bernhard Kohl it's also wrong. We can be pretty sure that it's the case but he didn't show it anywhere.

Froome has shown he's stronger than anybody in current peloton, including Contador! It dates from 2012 until now. He's the dominant GT rider today, like Contador was 2007-2011, Armstrong 1999-2005, Indurain 1991-1995, etc...

When I bring up the argument "Froome has never shown he is stronger than Contador because they never faced off when both were in top shape" you can't just counter the argument by saying "Froome has shown he is stronger than anybody". Discussing doesn't work like that. As I wrote in the other thread, show me one example where both were in top shape and rode against each other. There just isn't one.

Froome beat him quite more often then other way around in these past 5 years, and in more important races. That's your answer, and that only matters for this discussion. 5 years is a long period and it is easy to establish who has the upper hand in that rivalry. And all this "who was in top shape and who wasn't" bull*** really doesn't matter, cause five years is a long period, as I said, and Contador if he is really a match for Froome would showed that on the greatest scene for both, which is the Tour de France. He failed there miserably, and no Vuelta or any other race can fix that for him!

This is just so nonsensical. If Froome had ridden the Giro in 2015 and had crashed out in the tdf 2016, he would have won 1 freakin gt over this 5 year period. You can't just ignore the shape of the riders. Everyone knows that Froome has won 3 tours since 2013, thats not exactly big news. But this thread wasn't made to discuss who has won how many tours, we have wikipedia for that. This thread is here to discuss the rivalry between those two guys and the context of their rivalry which is extremely important for the whole topic can't just be ignored.

 

[del1962]

From another thread where it was off topic and I probably annoyed most people there with the topic.
viewtopic.php?p=1993588#p1993588

So, I want to make this clear. I never said Contador would have won the tour de france this year if he hadn't crashed. I even wrote in a few threads that I think Froome would have won anyway so I didn't want to underrate him. The only reason why I wrote the comment was because it was a response to someone who said "Froome has shown that he is better than Contador" and imo that is simply wrong. If someone says Froome has shown that he is stronger than Bernhard Kohl it's also wrong. We can be pretty sure that it's the case but he didn't show it anywhere.

Froome has shown he's stronger than anybody in current peloton, including Contador! It dates from 2012 until now. He's the dominant GT rider today, like Contador was 2007-2011, Armstrong 1999-2005, Indurain 1991-1995, etc...

When I bring up the argument "Froome has never shown he is stronger than Contador because they never faced off when both were in top shape" you can't just counter the argument by saying "Froome has shown he is stronger than anybody". Discussing doesn't work like that. As I wrote in the other thread, show me one example where both were in top shape and rode against each other. There just isn't one.

Froome beat him quite more often then other way around in these past 5 years, and in more important races. That's your answer, and that only matters for this discussion. 5 years is a long period and it is easy to establish who has the upper hand in that rivalry. And all this "who was in top shape and who wasn't" bull*** really doesn't matter, cause five years is a long period, as I said, and Contador if he is really a match for Froome would showed that on the greatest scene for both, which is the Tour de France. He failed there miserably, and no Vuelta or any other race can fix that for him!

This is just so nonsensical. If Froome had ridden the Giro in 2015 and had crashed out in the tdf 2016, he would have won 1 freakin gt over this 5 year period. You can't just ignore the shape of the riders. Everyone knows that Froome has won 3 tours since 2013, thats not exactly big news. But this thread wasn't made to discuss who has won how many tours, we have wikipedia for that. This thread is here to discuss the rivalry between those two guys and the context of their rivalry which is extremely important for the whole topic can't just be ignored.

Nah atleast 2 as he would have won 2015 Giro

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Since 2013, Froome and Contador has went into the Tour de France targeting to win the race.

Froome won in 2013
They both crashed in 2014 (anyone's guess who is winning - chances are, Nibali still would)
Froome deleted him in 2015, as in 2013
Contador crashed in 2016 and Froome won again

Thats 3 - 0

I'm curious how Froome will do at the Vuelta this year. If Contador "deletes" him we can at least scratch 2015 off that list. Actually we could do that anyway, in 2012 Froome also got wrecked by a fresh Contador, so 2015 doesn't show anything. 2016 is imo also an unfair comparison. Generally I'm annoyed that so many people say one reason why Contador is worse than Froome is his bike handling although Froome has crashed out of a gt as often as Contador. The only difference is that when Froome crashed out Contador never profited from it.
What remains will always be 2013 but we all know that Contador was in bad shape, so this year can be taken into account when you ask who was the better rider over the last years, because Froome never f***** up his preparation, but it doesn't show who of the two is better in top shape.

But it doesnt matter if ones top shape is as good or better (which I also really doubt) when you aren't able to show up in the biggest race, by far, and hand it to your opponents. Didnt in 2013 or 2015 when he had an opportunity, crashed the other two years.
Contador profited from Froome crashing in 2014, then lost 3 minutes to Nibali and crashed out himself.

 

[Gigs_98]

Froome has shown he's stronger than anybody in current peloton, including Contador! It dates from 2012 until now. He's the dominant GT rider today, like Contador was 2007-2011, Armstrong 1999-2005, Indurain 1991-1995, etc...

When I bring up the argument "Froome has never shown he is stronger than Contador because they never faced off when both were in top shape" you can't just counter the argument by saying "Froome has shown he is stronger than anybody". Discussing doesn't work like that. As I wrote in the other thread, show me one example where both were in top shape and rode against each other. There just isn't one.

Froome beat him quite more often then other way around in these past 5 years, and in more important races. That's your answer, and that only matters for this discussion. 5 years is a long period and it is easy to establish who has the upper hand in that rivalry. And all this "who was in top shape and who wasn't" bull*** really doesn't matter, cause five years is a long period, as I said, and Contador if he is really a match for Froome would showed that on the greatest scene for both, which is the Tour de France. He failed there miserably, and no Vuelta or any other race can fix that for him!

This is just so nonsensical. If Froome had ridden the Giro in 2015 and had crashed out in the tdf 2016, he would have won 1 freakin gt over this 5 year period. You can't just ignore the shape of the riders. Everyone knows that Froome has won 3 tours since 2013, thats not exactly big news. But this thread wasn't made to discuss who has won how many tours, we have wikipedia for that. This thread is here to discuss the rivalry between those two guys and the context of their rivalry which is extremely important for the whole topic can't just be ignored.

Nah atleast 2 as he would have won 2015 Giro

Good point
But he only would have won one tdf, I think you know what I was trying to say.