Froome Vs. Contador

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

LOL that eek must have been from the mouse eating your common sense... EBH, Rigo, Porte and many others must have failed math as the numbers never added up for them at Sky

Of course your not going to have a program that is 100% correct. Another thing you have to look at is how much support did they get...even still you're always going to have some riders that don't become thermonuclear regardless of where they ride.

Those eeks had to do with his statement concerning Froome. In 2008 would you have predicted Froome to win the TdF?

 

[Pricey_sky]

The bottom line is that Froome is avoiding direct confrontation until it matters, and he will PSM everybody, destroy them mentally. Sky is so much better than any other team, it's not even funny. I like Bertie so far this year, his attacks that some see as useless give him the belief that he can drop anyone at will. Well, except Froome. No real face-to-face so far. It's a guessing game for us, and for them too, which works to Froome's benefit. The way Lance used to show up in July, everybody thinking that Ullrich was stronger than ever, and boom! Lights out...

Not exactly true, in his first season as outright leader (2013) he wanted to race to win, he said he needed to win to get as much experience of carrying the leaders jersey as possible so won almost everything. Since then its been slightly different, He doesn't need to prove he's good enough.

He usually starts fairly well winning Andalucía last year and going to Australia this year. Catalunya he's never been quite in top shape but by the time the Dauphine comes round he's usually not far off top form, its different to Lance just turning up in July and dominating. We should get a good show between Froome and Contador in the Dauphine. We may get one between Froome and Quintana in Romandie, although Froome may not quite be strong enough just yet.

 

[Taxus4a]

The bottom line is that Froome is avoiding direct confrontation until it matters, and he will PSM everybody, destroy them mentally. Sky is so much better than any other team, it's not even funny. I like Bertie so far this year, his attacks that some see as useless give him the belief that he can drop anyone at will. Well, except Froome. No real face-to-face so far. It's a guessing game for us, and for them too, which works to Froome's benefit. The way Lance used to show up in July, everybody thinking that Ullrich was stronger than ever, and boom! Lights out...

Froome and Lance are so opossite kind of person and they are so different kind of riders that I cant understand any kind of comparision.

The same with SKY and Us postal, although they tray to controle the race in a similar way, but that is. at teh end will be a face to face, last year was a face to face.. contador was at Froome wheel in Huy, he tried to follow and he cracked...it will be the ame way, if Contador has legs, he will keep the pace. But I didnt see legs for that on him after his sancion, maybe in 2014 legs to just follow him, maybe...

Lance was suited for one day classic and Froome did good ITT from the begining and good mountain stages, and always better in Tours than one day races. Lancewas another after his cancer.

Yes, Froome will have maybe the best team for le Tour, as Lance did, but no more.

Reading this is like to think that to be the best is bad.

Froome won le Tour for a minute, I dont think that is destroy everybody. Valverde was there and he wanst too far.

There is a hate I cant understand. I hope people realize about lot of things, but some people are stiil in his own way. What a pity.

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

In 2008 would you have predicted Froome to win the TdF?

If you want to know more about Froome, wich I doubt, read this:

http://patrimoniociclista.blogspot.com.es/2013/06/an-unpolished-diamond-story-of-chris.html

Well I'll say this for Taxus: he has highlighted some facts I was unaware of. Froome in the 2008 Tour made a rookie error and didn't take enough gels on the Alpe d'Huez stage but nevertheless finished ahead of Nibali (by six minutes), Hesjedal, ten Dam, Astarloza, Zubeldia, Bruseghin, etc, and again on the penultimate day's time trial, he was 14th in his debut Tour, ahead of Nibali (by more than two minutes), Sammy Sanchez, LL Sanchez, Peter Velits, Bruseghin, Valverde, Posthuma, Sivtsov, Chavanel, Kreuziger, Rosseler, Monfort, Clement, and many others who would have beaten him if his talent was as lacking as many in this forum believe.

 

[burning]

I wonder why no one said/say right now Monfort would be the best GT rider ever based on 2007 Vuelta.

He was exactly same age as Froome (edit: I realized he was 1 year older, but who cares):

9th in final ITT, beating Hansen, Chavanel, CVV, Sastre, Backstedt, LLS and many more.
9th and 11th in final two mountain stages beating guys like Evans, Chechu, Horner, Anton, Moreno, Barredo, Beltran, Krezuiger and many more.
And he finished 11th in GC beating..., I guess you get the point.

Anyone can make a BS story after you see what happened, I would love to see any post about him before 2011 Vuelta, not after he somehow become the next big thing.

 

[Jspear]

Re:

I wonder why no one said/say right now Monfort would be the best GT rider ever based on 2007 Vuelta.

He was exactly same age as Froome (edit: I realized he was 1 year older, but who cares):

9th in final ITT, beating Hansen, Chavanel, CVV, Sastre, Backstedt, LLS and many more.
9th and 11th in final two mountain stages beating guys like Evans, Chechu, Horner, Anton, Moreno, Barredo, Beltran, Krezuiger and many more.
And he finished 11th in GC beating..., I guess you get the point.

Anyone can make a BS story after you see what happened, I would love to see any post about him before 2011 Vuelta, not after he somehow become the next big thing.

Don't worry...there is a team right now watching Monfort. They will sign him as soon as his current contract is up. Monfort right now is dealing with a rare sickness...he will be healed and go on to ride at his full potential. The sky is the limit!

 

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

I think im sane. I just think alberto will crush everyone in Le tour. Is that so insane ;(

I dont midn if one wins le Tour or another, it will be good and I will aplause if Contador do that. it is not insane. In my opinion I think it wont be like that. I think he is like in 2014, and that way he will be beated by Froome and Quintana. Likelly he will be on the podium, and I hope he is in the level to play to win le Tour with his view of the race and taking a little risk. But I have my doubts. I think he will be at least second in the second ITT, maybe he will win it.

I just hope you are not very disapointed if Contador is not at the level to win le Tour. Looking last years it will be logical. If I am wrong, I will admit that.

Of course if Quintana or Froome will have some kind of problem, he will be the favourite, but with important rivals as well (I dont mean Aru, Contador showed he is clearly better than him at the Giro, although the second ITT is very good as well for him.)

In 2014, he beat Quintana at TA, Froome at the Vuelta (excluding Dauphine because Froome crashed), but you conclude that both will beat him this year even though you think he's on 2014 form. Then you note that looking at last year's TdF, you think it's logical that he won't be at the level to win. Except you ignore the Giro-Tour double attempt and the impact the Giro clearly had on Contador's performance. I'm not a big proponent on looking at past performances to predict future results, but if you're going to do it, at least be consistent. Not to mention, you should at a minimum look at their head-to-head performances to date.

My guess is you place too little weight on the 2014 Vuelta and too much weight on the 2015 TdF.

In fact, it is very meritable that try to do the double, but if you ask my real opinion (I can be wrong) he hadnt a big impact to do the Giro. He showed that in the past in G-T and T-V and he has a very good recovery, and he was resting in Swiss. That is a point below his level, but very small point. Of course this year he will be stronger, but just a little, and he had a better route with no a long flat first week and hards and no very long ITTs, and a gradual start of the mountain,that is where Froome take more advantage, if it is not gradual. by destroying people on the first mountain finish (and thiss year if SKY is clever, what I doubt, must do the same at Asping (but Froome need to warm up his body and it is a no long climb for that...in La Pierre there was a time when he was even droped a little after he was warmed up)

Respect Tirreno, well, good victory, the same in Pais Vasco, he was at a good level, he is very good in one week races, but I dont consider Tirreno a very good reference. He tried from far and he succed, he has an strong attack and could drop a not very good Quintana, he was thinking in the Giro, so not as the very good shape Contador had. The rest.. there wanst more important rivals there...he struggle to win Grescke at the end who was in the break. I wanst very impresed.

I was more impresed the way he droped Valverde in Pais Vasco in a hard shor climb, but Contador has that strong attack in short climbs, it was as well a basque country with no the level of this year.

And about la Vuelta I have talked already too much about...

You can stay with his good result in all 2014, and I cant say anything, ok, that is important, good for Contador, but the real race to take more conclusions was Dauphine, and Froome showed stronger untill his crash.

Froome showed as well strong in Romandie, by wining the race and by getting the same time to Tony Martin in the ITT. Contador was second againt Tony Martin in an ITTwith 2 climbs instead one climb in Romandie where it was 70 % flat. For me that is important.

Spilak lost just 9 second to Contador in 25.9 Km, but Spilak lost to Froome just 3 weeks later 29 seconds in 18.5 Km.

Uran did one of those good ITT of that year in Romandie, he was 4th after Tony Martin, Froome and Sergent, but anyway he lost with Froome 15 secons in those 18.5 Km.

Uran was better than Contador in the ITT of la Vuelta where Contador won the race to Froome. do you think seriously Froome was at his level at la Vuelta?

In the second stage of le Tour Froome showed his power in a very short climb, one of those better for his rivals

I think bet webs give more importance to that that year and this one.

You can take the result and say Contador was better than Froome in 2014. Of course, no doubt, that is an objetive fact, you can stay with that and say all the things you want... correct.

But according who showed an stronger level that year and looking for future results, Froome showed stronger than Contador in 2014.

 

[ray j willings]

taxus "But according who showed an stronger level that year and looking for future results, Froome showed stronger than Contador in 2014"

Seriously . Even as a froome fan I have to comment on the above quote " rubbish nonsense with no factual basis whatsoever"

 

[LaFlorecita]

Taxus, oh my ghod

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

But according who showed an stronger level that year and looking for future results, Froome showed stronger than Contador in 2014.

Oh crap, this thread will go nuts now.

 

[blackmamba]

No need to go bust over a post which condradict itself more than Trump

 

[Publicus]

Thanks for your very illuminating/insightful post around your thinking about Froome and Contador. There's a lot to digest there, but it's pretty clear that you have a strong pro-Froome bias that colors your analysis of Froome (positively) and any other rider not named Froome (negatively). I think that point is most clear when you casually dismiss/downplay the impact of the 2015 Giro on Contador's 2015 TdF. It seems such a non-contrversial point to concede and yet you minimize its impact to the point that it is almost a non-event (in other words as if Contador hadn't actually ridden the Giro that year). Which of course explains your heavy reliance on 2015 to draw your conclusions about Contador's chances in the 2016 TdF. As for 2014 Vuelta, it's also pretty clear that your point of view is driven by outcomes: Froome didn't win, so he's not at his best. Which, again, is fine, but I think it undercuts your ability to position yourself and your views as objective. I'm not going to re-litigate Contador's 2014 Spring, 2014 Dauphine or the 2nd Stage of the TdF because it's an exercise in futility (and certainly more appropriate for the Froome vs Contador thread).

 

[buchanan]

I'm a Contador fan and I agree with Taxus that Froome was at least as strong as Contador in 2014 at the Dauphine and Tour. Possibly slightly stronger in fact. He took a handful of seconds out of Contador to win the opening ITT at the Dauphine. He then followed that up by winning the next stage, a mountain top finish, where Contador was using every ounce of strength to hang on for dear life (and came 2nd to Froome).
Obviously things started to unravel for Froome when he then had a heavy crash at that Dauphine and then crashed out of the Tour very early in the race, breaking his hand.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

Don't worry...there is a team right now watching Monfort. They will sign him as soon as his current contract is up. Monfort right now is dealing with a rare sickness...he will be healed and go on to ride at his full potential. The sky is the limit!

The Clinic is this way.

viewforum.php?f=20

 

[lenric]

Re:

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re:

I'm a Contador fan and I agree with Taxus that Froome was at least as strong as Contador in 2014 at the Dauphine and Tour. Possibly slightly stronger in fact. He took a handful of seconds out of Contador to win the opening ITT at the Dauphine. He then followed that up by winning the next stage, a mountain top finish, where Contador was using every ounce of strength to hang on for dear life (and came 2nd to Froome).

Correct.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re: Re:

I think im sane. I just think alberto will crush everyone in Le tour. Is that so insane ;(

I dont midn if one wins le Tour or another, it will be good and I will aplause if Contador do that. it is not insane. In my opinion I think it wont be like that. I think he is like in 2014, and that way he will be beated by Froome and Quintana. Likelly he will be on the podium, and I hope he is in the level to play to win le Tour with his view of the race and taking a little risk. But I have my doubts. I think he will be at least second in the second ITT, maybe he will win it.

I just hope you are not very disapointed if Contador is not at the level to win le Tour. Looking last years it will be logical. If I am wrong, I will admit that.

Of course if Quintana or Froome will have some kind of problem, he will be the favourite, but with important rivals as well (I dont mean Aru, Contador showed he is clearly better than him at the Giro, although the second ITT is very good as well for him.)

In 2014, he beat Quintana at TA, Froome at the Vuelta (excluding Dauphine because Froome crashed), but you conclude that both will beat him this year even though you think he's on 2014 form. Then you note that looking at last year's TdF, you think it's logical that he won't be at the level to win. Except you ignore the Giro-Tour double attempt and the impact the Giro clearly had on Contador's performance. I'm not a big proponent on looking at past performances to predict future results, but if you're going to do it, at least be consistent. Not to mention, you should at a minimum look at their head-to-head performances to date.

My guess is you place too little weight on the 2014 Vuelta and too much weight on the 2015 TdF.

You can take the result and say Contador was better than Froome in 2014. Of course, no doubt, that is an objetive fact, you can stay with that and say all the things you want... correct.

But according who showed an stronger level that year and looking for future results, Froome showed stronger than Contador in 2014.

I stopped reading when you started praising Froome's win in Romandie. Probs to Spilak, but the competition level was NOT higher in Tour de Romandie 2014, than what was the case for Tirreno, Pais Vasco, Catalunya etc. that year.

Contador beat Froome in every race the pair raced together. Your point makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

I'm a Contador fan and I agree with Taxus that Froome was at least as strong as Contador in 2014 at the Dauphine and Tour. Possibly slightly stronger in fact. He took a handful of seconds out of Contador to win the opening ITT at the Dauphine. He then followed that up by winning the next stage, a mountain top finish, where Contador was using every ounce of strength to hang on for dear life (and came 2nd to Froome).
Obviously things started to unravel for Froome when he then had a heavy crash at that Dauphine and then crashed out of the Tour very early in the race, breaking his hand.

Agreed, I also think its rubbish to suggest Contador was way better in 2014, I think they were on a relatively similar level throughout. If I was to say who would have won the Tour, I had gone with Froome due to the long, flat ITT.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

Agreed, I also think its rubbish to suggest Contador was way better in 2014, I think they were on a relatively similar level throughout. If I was to say who would have won the Tour, I had gone with Froome due to the long, flat ITT.

In before someone comes in saying Contador winning the Vuelta proves he would've also won the Tour.

 

[Publicus]

Re:

I'm a Contador fan and I agree with Taxus that Froome was at least as strong as Contador in 2014 at the Dauphine and Tour. Possibly slightly stronger in fact. He took a handful of seconds out of Contador to win the opening ITT at the Dauphine. He then followed that up by winning the next stage, a mountain top finish, where Contador was using every ounce of strength to hang on for dear life (and came 2nd to Froome).
Obviously things started to unravel for Froome when he then had a heavy crash at that Dauphine and then crashed out of the Tour very early in the race, breaking his hand.

It was also true that Froome was using ever ounce of strength to drop Contador and couldn't. Contador tried to come around him in the finale and couldn't, but ended on the same time. I don't call that stronger. I call that the same level.

 

[Publicus]

Re: Re:

I'm a Contador fan and I agree with Taxus that Froome was at least as strong as Contador in 2014 at the Dauphine and Tour. Possibly slightly stronger in fact. He took a handful of seconds out of Contador to win the opening ITT at the Dauphine. He then followed that up by winning the next stage, a mountain top finish, where Contador was using every ounce of strength to hang on for dear life (and came 2nd to Froome).
Obviously things started to unravel for Froome when he then had a heavy crash at that Dauphine and then crashed out of the Tour very early in the race, breaking his hand.

Agreed, I also think its rubbish to suggest Contador was way better in 2014, I think they were on a relatively similar level throughout. If I was to say who would have won the Tour, I had gone with Froome due to the long, flat ITT.

Going in, I think that would have been a reasonable conclusion.

 

[Netserk]

Remind me again, how strong was Contador in the Dauphiné the years he won the Tour? How strong was Froome in the Dauphiné the years he won the Tour?

Any difference between the two?

 

[Matteo.]

Contador must try to follow Froome the first two weeks. Or at least to lose as little as possible, and get to the last week with a maximum of 1.30 minutes of posting, would be good.
And finally, last week, when Froome will fall, Alberto will make up for lost time.
This is roughly the plan to try to win the Tour

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re: Re:

I'm a Contador fan and I agree with Taxus that Froome was at least as strong as Contador in 2014 at the Dauphine and Tour. Possibly slightly stronger in fact. He took a handful of seconds out of Contador to win the opening ITT at the Dauphine. He then followed that up by winning the next stage, a mountain top finish, where Contador was using every ounce of strength to hang on for dear life (and came 2nd to Froome).
Obviously things started to unravel for Froome when he then had a heavy crash at that Dauphine and then crashed out of the Tour very early in the race, breaking his hand.

It was also true that Froome was using ever ounce of strength to drop Contador and couldn't. Contador tried to come around him in the finale and couldn't, but ended on the same time. I don't call that stronger. I call that the same level.

While I agree that Contador was generally slightly - if not very much - stronger than Froome in 2014, that exact stage you mention is actually one of the very few instances of 2014, in which Froome had the edge. Col du Béal is a climb where sitting in another rider's wheel will give a slight advantage, thus making Froome marginally stronger on that exact day. It doesn't detract from the overall point though

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

Contador must try to follow Froome the first two weeks. Or at least to lose as little as possible, and get to the last week with a maximum of 30.1 minutes of posting, would be good.
And finally, last week, when Froome will fall, Alberto will make up for lost time.
This is roughly the plan to try to win the Tour

I think Contador and Quintana both will be about 2 minutes down going into the Alps, it should be the objective to reduce the gaps for them on Arcalis and the ITT or follow, but I think Ventoux and the ITT is Froome's territory. Maybe they can try something to Culoz.