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Fuentes interview

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Señor_Contador said:
Oh, come on! You don't really think The Law really cares how much damage he can do to Spanish sports right? The Law can make Eufemiano disappear in a second.

In fact, I can tell you how they'd do it: Kidnap him for a couple of hours, inject him with some cocaine and put him in a car in a desolate part of the Canary Islands. All of a sudden he has an accident and noone will notice.

Too many movies :rolleyes:

But i think Zapatero does care a lot about Spanish sport, given that every time Spain has won something this year he has immediately invited the victor for a photoshoot with himself.
 
icefire said:
If Manzano's summary biography in wikipedia is correct, he left Kelme at the end of 2003. Nadal broke in the tennis scene during the 2004 Davis Cup Final, and he finished 51st in the ATP ranking that year. So speculation about who that top tennis player was might have to point to someone else.
You are right. It does look rather tight. I got the information from this same forum, so maybe somebody might want to shed some light on this topic.

It is not impossible that it could be him in 2003. Straight from Wiki:

Tennis career
2002–2004
In April 2002, at 15 years and 10 months, the World No. 762 Nadal won his first ATP match, defeating Ramón Delgado, and became the ninth player in the open era to do so before the age of 16.[18] The following year, Nadal won two Challenger titles and finished the year in the top 50. At his Wimbledon debut in 2003, Nadal became the youngest man to reach the third round since Boris Becker in 1984.[19] During 2004, Nadal played his first match against World No. 1 Roger Federer at the 2004 Miami Masters, and won in straight sets.
 
Jul 30, 2009
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The Hitch said:
And so many tennis players. The argument always was that Tennis is one of the most technique based sports. .

Does anyone buy this bull? (Im not saying you do Hitch)

The extraordinary leaps in the player's stamina over the last decade are just totally unbelievable for me. I accept they hit the ball much harder cos the rackets are soooo much better, but that then means you have to much quicker across the court, and the matches seem to be a fair bit tighter these days - often 3/4 hours, in the heat, another match the day after, and you're in the doubles too. Something smells bad...
 
Winterfold said:
Does anyone buy this bull? (Im not saying you do Hitch)

The extraordinary leaps in the player's stamina over the last decade are just totally unbelievable for me. I accept they hit the ball much harder cos the rackets are soooo much better, but that then means you have to much quicker across the court, and the matches seem to be a fair bit tighter these days - often 3/4 hours, in the heat, another match the day after, and you're in the doubles too. Something smells bad...

For me its the serve which is the key to tennis and doping. Their serves are at 130mph and remain close to this speed for hours and hours. This must be full power, because they produce similar speeds on key points and match points, were you would perhaps expect them to go all out. I always thought that if you go all out, 200 + serves a match, full power, this would tire you out. But no. Even in 5 hour matches you often get them producing the fastest serves of the match in the 5th set.

And its not just a case of stamina, but also of strenght. Serve is key these days. you get the 7 footers coming in and basing their whole games on it. And taking certain peds will serve to give you stonger serves, period. So considering there are peds available which increase serve strenght, and we know tennis players in the lower ranks have been taking peds, how come all the fastest serves are by top 20 players?
 
Winterfold said:
Does anyone buy this bull? (Im not saying you do Hitch)

The extraordinary leaps in the player's stamina over the last decade are just totally unbelievable for me. I accept they hit the ball much harder cos the rackets are soooo much better, but that then means you have to much quicker across the court, and the matches seem to be a fair bit tighter these days - often 3/4 hours, in the heat, another match the day after, and you're in the doubles too. Something smells bad...

I listened to a very interesting interview of Chris Evert the other day on the radio. She was speaking primarily about the women's game, but much of what she said rings true on the men's side too.

When asked if she would be competetive today, she was a bit measured in her response.

You have to keep in mind how she played the game: she sort of bridged the transition from the more traditional "serve and volley" period to today's baseline game. She was dominant on clay courtys where strength and patience at the baseline win matches. She even pioneered the two-handed backhand in the women's game.

Having said all that, she was still hesitant to say she would be successful today. She threw out the obligatory "carbon fiber rackets make for faster serves and returns" comment, but at the end she still made it pretty clear that the strength and speed needed to be competetive today is head and shoulders above where it was when she played (retiring in 1989).
 
Feb 28, 2010
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This thread got me thinking about the rumours I've heard of drugs in tennis. One was more than a rumour it was a top player of the 1980s who stated he'd taken steroids, but that they weren't banned at that time. I typed a particular player's name into Google, a player I knew had spoken about steroids to L'Equipe, with the word drug and immediately hit upon this:

http://www.tennisforum.com/archive/index.php/t-31374.html

Virtually the same posts on doping as we get here, but in a tennis forum of 2002!
 
Good info in this thread.

I would venture to say that doping could be screwing up the tennis show just like it did with the cycling from the 80's. Here is my point:

- Cycling: Most GT are equal in strength and wait until the last mountain kilometers to make a difference. In some GT's you have a dominant jacked up team (CSC, US Postal/Discovery/ T-Mobile/ Liquigas) that put the pace high enough that nobody is able to put on a show or go from far away from the finish. Back in the days it was survival mode and the differences were quite big from the beginning of the mountains.

- Tennis: Big shots are relying more on the serve to attack the opposition so it voids the spectacle that follow that is the back a forward attacks from each side of the court.

I don't watch much tennis so maybe someone can correct me on this.:)
 
Jul 22, 2009
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The Hitch said:
The " they dont do it because its harmfull theory". Problem is it doesnt really work because its been used time and time again by people who have been caught. Including by the most controversial figure in out thing.

Well, if that's the case then 1) Nadal's parents and uncle know he's doping, in which case it is something they can get in trouble for with The Law, not to name the fact that it would probably put them on a leve similar to those parents who sexually prostitute their own kids for money, or 2) Nadal's parents and uncle don't know he dopes, which would make someone else in his entourage a criminal and his parents very ****ed off.

I, for one, choose not to believe he dopes.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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And another thing, whether Nadal was playing some long matches early in his career is not a sign of him doping. He was 17-18 at the time and when you're that age you can pretty much do that. It's certainly not indicative of anything other than he's young.

Heck, when I was 19 I was working two jobs, sleeping 4 hour a day, going to night school, going out all week ends, get blind drunk, doing the deed as many times as necessary and do it all over again the next week. I did it for about 4 years. 28 hours of sleep a week.

To Nadal's favor, he has said, on a couple of occasions, that he learned, from an early age, to wear down his opponents.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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LastDamnation said:
It's even more obvious that nadal is a doper, than it is that ricco was.

Even though Riccó has actually tested positive on a couple of occasions while Nadal has never tested positive?

I think you've overdosed on the Cool Aid my friend.

Put it down.

Niiiiiiiiiice.
 
Se&#241 said:
Well, if that's the case then 1) Nadal's parents and uncle know he's doping, in which case it is something they can get in trouble for with The Law, not to name the fact that it would probably put them on a leve similar to those parents who sexually prostitute their own kids for money, or 2) Nadal's parents and uncle don't know he dopes, which would make someone else in his entourage a criminal and his parents very ****ed off.

I, for one, choose not to believe he dopes.

But, then, all the evidence shows that over the years, thousands of people in hundreds of sports, mega stars, proffesionals, amateurs, have doped. Hell in sports like our thing alone, it seems certain we have had hundreds of proffesionals dope in the last decade. ANd how many more going back to Roche, Mercx Antequil etc.

So did all of these people have bad parents? Does Nadal have some sort of super parents which make him special compared to everyone else in the world? I think if we looked at the parents of everyone who ever doped, sure you would get a lot of broken families but my guess is you would get a lot of parents who cared more about their childrens health than acomplishments.

You also compare yourself when you were 19 to nadal when he was 19 regarding stamina. Judging by the things you claim to have been doing at that age, im guessing your parents didnt control your life too much. Well why would Nadal be any different. He is a grown man. What do his parents know?

Do his parents know about his doping? Maybe maybe not. Maybe you are right and he doesnt dope. But for me i wont rule out Nadal just because he has superparents.

Oh btw, Micahel Phelps mom attends every race he ever competes in. There is a lot of evidence that Phelps dopes. He fails your " if they do recreational drugs they are more likely to dope" theory and he has broken every world record he ever tried for. Surely after swimming 3 races every day for 7 days and winning them all his hematocrit would be down. But even on the 7th day he beat guys for whom it was their first race.

Now Michael Phelps mom really seems to me to fit the great parent category in every way. But i wont rule him out from doping because he has such a good mom. I look at who her son is and his amazing results and lack of testing in his sport (kind of like Nadal on both counts)
 
Se&#241 said:
Well, if that's the case then 1) Nadal's parents and uncle know he's doping, in which case it is something they can get in trouble for with The Law, not to name the fact that it would probably put them on a leve similar to those parents who sexually prostitute their own kids for money, or 2) Nadal's parents and uncle don't know he dopes, which would make someone else in his entourage a criminal and his parents very ****ed off.

I, for one, choose not to believe he dopes.
That the parents know about or participate in doping is not new to sports. That can not be used as an excuse. You said it correctly, there are parents that are capable of prostituting their own kids, so why they care about doping. Parents in the States know/participate in the doping of their kids so they can be great football players. I am sure this society is full of those.

Wasn't it in this forum that I heard that a father jacked up his 10-12 year old kid for a competition with caffeine. He gave him large amounts of coffee so he could win. I don't remember in which thread was that.

Bad parents in not new to this world.
 
Also one other point to you Senor_ Contador regarding the parents thing.

At the US open a few weeks ago, i saw the parents of the number 2 player in the world - Federer, of the number 3 player in the world - Djokovic, and the number 4 player in the world Murray.

So if we take your superparents theory then the entire Tennis high command is absolved of all doping immediately.
 
Jul 30, 2009
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With what cycling has taught me about when to be suspiscous because things look too good to be true, then, I am sorry Senor Contador, but Nadal just looks too good to be true.

For sure, he could be a one-off, and until he gets popped he's clean, but if tennis actually started testing with the rigour of cycling, then it would not surprise me in the slightest if he got busted. Murray too.

Given the money involved I would expect very sophisticated programmes, and I do not know enough about the physiology of tennis to make a guess, except that I bet HGH is involved, and things like AICAR. Lots of joint strain and injuries, at optimal weight, and they recover very well.

Any footballer who has beaten the beep test would also arose my suspiscions, no matter how untouchable their status :rolleyes:
 
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MacRoadie/Hitch

I agree. Similarly, I think I have heard McEnroe say he would stand no chance.

As the racket technology changes would suit his killer return game (the faster you hit at me, the faster it comes back), all other things being equal, he should still expect to good today.

I guess it's down to nutrition, weight loss, training right etc etc
 
Jul 22, 2009
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The Hitch said:
But, then, all the evidence shows that over the years, thousands of people in hundreds of sports, mega stars, proffesionals, amateurs, have doped. Hell in sports like our thing alone, it seems certain we have had hundreds of proffesionals dope in the last decade. ANd how many more going back to Roche, Mercx Antequil etc.

So did all of these people have bad parents? Does Nadal have some sort of super parents which make him special compared to everyone else in the world? I think if we looked at the parents of everyone who ever doped, sure you would get a lot of broken families but my guess is you would get a lot of parents who cared more about their childrens health than acomplishments.

You also compare yourself when you were 19 to nadal when he was 19 regarding stamina. Judging by the things you claim to have been doing at that age, im guessing your parents didnt control your life too much. Well why would Nadal be any different. He is a grown man. What do his parents know?

Do his parents know about his doping? Maybe maybe not. Maybe you are right and he doesnt dope. But for me i wont rule out Nadal just because he has superparents.

Oh btw, Micahel Phelps mom attends every race he ever competes in. There is a lot of evidence that Phelps dopes. He fails your " if they do recreational drugs they are more likely to dope" theory and he has broken every world record he ever tried for. Surely after swimming 3 races every day for 7 days and winning them all his hematocrit would be down. But even on the 7th day he beat guys for whom it was their first race.

Now Michael Phelps mom really seems to me to fit the great parent category in every way. But i wont rule him out from doping because he has such a good mom. I look at who her son is and his amazing results and lack of testing in his sport (kind of like Nadal on both counts)

Well, mine is not a "theory", it's just an opinion.

The reason why I said bringing the entire family to a final game is sort of an indication that you may not be doing something wrong is because of cheater's guilt, that's all.

Now, there are exceptions to the rule, like Armstrong, who's a compulsive socialite/psychopath and OK with living a lie every day of his existence, and has actually tested positive, or Riccó, who is simply a moron, and has also tested positive.

But, if you know you're doing something wrong you usually try to extricate yourself from those that matter to you, phisically and emotionally. Even Jesús Manzano himself, once said that the reason they used to carry out the training camps away from their home towns was to "[...]create a false appearance. The people have always been afraid of a scene, and panic at surprise controls at home. It's best to be away."

That's why I'm saying that someone with a family as heavily involved in his success as Nadal has to know he does not take a little of the sumphin-sumphin. And if they all, or some, know and are all in the lie then they all deserve to be put in jail.

Remember, it's just an opinion.
 
sherer said:
what I want to know is why non of the other sports are investigating this and demanding he hand over names.

How many cyclists were actually linked to Puerto though ? So far only about 4 people have been banned for it so how many people is this actual 30% ?

I'm surprised that nobody responded to this question, which is the question.

Well, the answer my dear sherer, is simply one of economic power. It's the same reason why we don't get any serious investigations into doping in the NFL. These sports simply circulate too much money. Thus there is no economic interest within the parties involved to push the matter further and the anti-doping authorities get squashed by the gargantuan might of the giant title holders.

This is why, unfortunately, the entire anti-doping campaign is weak. Because the economic interests within certain sports over-ride those ethical ones that are at the basis of such a program. It is connected to the world we live in, where, on the one hand, it is politically correct to espouse anti-doping, but, as with most things politically correct, there isn't a compatable political will to move things in the right direction against the interests of business. OP has taught us, in this regard, that there's simply too much at stake economically. Consequently in regards to a relatively "poor" sport such as cycling, one finds an easy target to demonstrate to the masses (who may or may not care) that "progress" is being made on the ethical front, without damaging the vested interest of those who stand to gain the most from having the stadiums full.

It's all about money. All the rest is pure moralistic fantasy. And we will probably always remain there. Full stadiums and la strada ever under the pressure of doubt and accusation. It's the enth demonstration that the "poor" get to take the fall also for the overloards.
 
Jul 26, 2010
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Señor_Contador said:
Even though Riccó has actually tested positive on a couple of occasions while Nadal has never tested positive?

I think you've overdosed on the Cool Aid my friend.

Put it down.

Niiiiiiiiiice.

I think it's pretty obvious I was referring to how obvious it was ricco was doping before he got caught :p
 
Winterfold said:
With what cycling has taught me about when to be suspiscous because things look too good to be true, then, I am sorry Senor Contador, but Nadal just looks too good to be true.

Another comparison between Nadal and cycling is what the commentators say about him.

The commentators always said of Lance that he trained so much harder than everyone else, put on the pain every day while his competitors were presumably partying all night.

This is exactly what the fawning commentators always say about Nadal. THat he trains hard every day, hour after hour pushing himself. So much harder than anyone else. That in training he hits the ball hard (while others are presumably lob it over every time :rolleyes:) etc etc etc.

Whenever they say this i always think back to Lance.
 
Bruno

Señor_Contador said:
Well, if that's the case then 1) Nadal's parents and uncle know he's doping, it would probably put them on a leve similar to those parents who XXXXX prostitute their own kids for money

Note, above I struck the "sexually" because I feel it inflames the issue.

Watch this clip from the movie Bruno http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eePO_7pcw8 This is "normal" for some parents. Really.

PED's are just "part of the sacrifice" to get their kids one step closer to something the parents want. Sick.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
Note, above I struck the "sexually" because I feel it inflames the issue.

Watch this clip from the movie Bruno http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eePO_7pcw8 This is "normal" for some parents. Really.

PED's are just "part of the sacrifice" to get their kids one step closer to something the parents want. Sick.

Oh, come on!

Don't do this to me!

How can you compare the world of doping to a Borat audition?

Really?!
 
May 5, 2009
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anybody who thinks that being part of the global top 10 in any sport without medical support and preparation (doping) shall continue to belief in this illusion. sad, but true.

I know too many athletes in too many disciplines...

And Fuentes just confirms it.

No matter how technical, how much talent you need for any sport...

...if you are
.stronger
.faster
.have higher/longer endurance
.more concentration

(all enhanced/achieved by doping)

you will beat clean athletes that might be more talented than you and of course the ones at your level.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Bike Opera said:

Thanx.

The Hitch said:
Thanks for this. Wow. Only 30% cycling. So maybe the perception that this thing of ours is the most dirty sport because of all the positive tests, is wrong.

And so many tennis players. The argument always was that Tennis is one of the most technique based sports. But so many players were getting help from Mr Fuentes. Surprised there werent more footballers there though. Compared to tennis that is a sport were doping would be far more beneficial and where there is far more incentive to dope.

I really don't agree with that. There are quite a few truly great football players that are all skill and football IQ. You can be a world class footballer while being seemingly unathletic. I don't think that's true for tennis anymore. Power has become hugely important and considering the cream of the crop play like 80 matches from january-november, I'm guessing recovery doping is more important too.

sherer said:
what I want to know is why non of the other sports are investigating this and demanding he hand over names.

How many cyclists were actually linked to Puerto though ? So far only about 4 people have been banned for it so how many people is this actual 30% ?

Someone said 58 riders.