Gas6?

[thehog]

great find, great read. Could Gert Leinders become the new Dr. Ferrari ??..

Race Radio says Leinders is a top bloke.

 

[thehog]

So who is the expert?

What i understand is when you are ill.
Say 30 hemotacriet with epo you can get to 45 but not all people and with some risks.
30 with gas6 the body will get to the natural 45 of that person.

With use of epo 1 + 1 = 3

Do i understand correctly?

Because gas6 is all natural it does not leave markers(positive doping test)???

Combo drug. Say in Jan you have a blood disease to mess your baseline. Followed by micromicro doses or EPO during base training, altitude with Gas6 and CO doping. Cortisone in-season for weight and to stop the bone pain.

They really do need to release their TUEs.

 

[thehog]

Mercxx Index posted this in the Froome thread.

Following up on that thread, here is another possibility to explain Froome's ET performance:

Schistosomiasis (Bilharzia) is known to result in a reduction of Hb/red cells. The mechanisms are still not clear, but probably there are several factors involved. Any reduction in red cells would trigger a homeostatic response in the body to increase EPO. So if Froome suffers from the disease, his natural EPO levels are getting a boost while he is symptomatic.

He supposedly has received treatment for the disease too keep it in check. Following treatment, his EPO and red cell levels should eventually stabilize. But during this period there would likely be a lag, in which the flatworms (or more precisely, their eggs, which seem to release the factors that reduce red cells) would be eliminated, but his EPO would remain elevated. The situation is somewhat analogous to the reported use of carbon monoxide as a PED. CO inactivates Hb, resulting in a stimulation of EPO. Again, the effect is only temporary, but the idea is that while the effect is there, the athlete will get a boost.

Treatment for schistosomiasis involves a single treatment with praziquantel once a year. Since it must be given annually, I assume the drug does not completely eliminate the organism's eggs, but merely suppresses them to a very low level. Under these conditions, I can well imagine a situation in Froome's body in which he could get the benefit of continual EPO stimulation from low levels of the antigens produced by the eggs. I would be very interested to see what his passport looks like. Since he and Sky have been very open about the effect of the disease on red cells, they must have seen some very dramatic changes in their levels. It makes me wonder how they were able to define a baseline at all.

From my reports this is just about on the money.

Looking at you RR and Sir David Walsh.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

No! It returns hematocrit to normal in anemic patients. There is no indication that it increases RBC mass without increasing hct.

Hct doesn't go down due to loss of RBC in athletes, blood plasma goes up due to plasma expansion, resulting in a lower Hct. If Gas6 helps RBC survive, then supposedly you can use less EPO to get the same Hct sustaining effect.

 

[D-Queued]

****.

Sounds like GAS6 increases responsiveness to EPO. So potentially: GAS6 + undetectably small doses of EPO = full scale EPO program. Apologies if this conclusion has been drawn already.

Don't apologize. The official UCI position is that they never heard of it:

Dave.

 

[User Guide]

I hope the peloton isnt reading this thread, If they didnt know before...

 

[User Guide]

Is there a connection with Leinders yes or no?
There seems to be some confusion

 

[bewildered]

No there is no link to Leinders. It was a mistake, he was mentioned in a dutch document that when translated had nothing to do with Gas6

 

[blackcat]

****.

Sounds like GAS6 increases responsiveness to EPO. So potentially: GAS6 + undetectably small doses of EPO = full scale EPO program. Apologies if this conclusion has been drawn already.

how would you bother continue to drawing that conclusion. this is a paradox.

sky team gas six + epo, no need to draw and reinfuse blood then

 

[silverrocket]

GAS6 is critical for making smooth vascular muscle. This muscle controls blood vessel size, which directly influences how hard the heart must work to pump blood, and how much blood can be pumped out to motor muscles (like leg muscles used to pedal a bicycle).

 

[Cycle Chic]

Anemia

No! It returns hematocrit to normal in anemic patients. There is no indication that it increases RBC mass without increasing hct.....If it boosts the body's response to EPO in people who aren't deficient, one might suggest the combination of Gas6 and microdoses results in a bigger boost than just microdoses..

Signs and symptoms[edit]
Above all, schistosomiasis is a chronic disease. Many infections are subclinically symptomatic, with mild anemia and malnutrition being common in endemic areas. Acute schistosomiasis (Katayama's fever) may occur weeks after the initial infection, especially by S. mansoni and S. japonicum. Manifestations include:
Abdominal pain
Cough
Diarrhea
Eosinophilia — extremely high eosinophil granulocyte (white blood cell) count.
Fever
Fatigue
Hepatosplenomegaly — the enlargement of both the liver and the spleen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schistosomiasis

Interesting that it states that a one off treatment is all that is necessary with Praziquantel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praziquantel

Praziquantel has a particularly dramatic effect on patients with schistosomiasis. Studies of those treated have shown that within six months of receiving a dose of praziquantel, up to 90% of the damage done to internal organs due to schistosomiasis infection can be reversed....

Side effects[edit]
The majority of side effects develop due to the release of the contents of the parasites as they are killed and the consequent host immune reaction. The heavier the parasite burden, the heavier and more frequent the side effects normally are.
Central nervous system These side effects may be life-threatening and can be reduced by coadministration of corticosteroids.

Surely if Sky are putting all of this info forward to explain Froome's blood fluctutations and treatment, it is going to signal an extremely loud RED FLAG to WADA - should they see them. A rider who is producing off the scale performances who has blood problems.

 

[dsut4392]

but the peptides and growth factors, they can call them proteins all they like, but these are on the spectrum of gene doping. you just used these igf etc to stimulate your own production. thats why i reckon the new stuff is much more powerful

Following your argument, not only epo and hgh but even anabolic steroids would also be gene doping - and they aren't.

Gene doping by definition involves transfer of exogenous genetic material (DNA/RNA), not altered expression of your own genes.

 

[Cobblestones]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schistosomiasis

Interesting that it states that a one off treatment is all that is necessary with Praziquantel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praziquantel



Surely if Sky are putting all of this info forward to explain Froome's blood fluctutations and treatment, it is going to signal an extremely loud RED FLAG to WADA - should they see them. A rider who is producing off the scale performances who has blood problems.

Here's an idea. Since anemia is a symptom of his disease, the regulatory response of his body might be constantly elevated endogenous EPO levels (coupled with maybe decreased sensitivity to EPO) in general. Thus, GAS6 by itself might be all that is needed to have his body produce a response which otherwise might only be achieved by giving (possibly high doses of) rEPO. Elevated levels of endogenous EPO will not show up in doping controls because it's not rEPO. GAS6 might not show up because it's not tested for. If that's true, it would be brilliant.

ETA: And I give you SR9009, a new experimental drug killing fat cells while building mitochondria in muscle cells.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

Here's an idea. Since anemia is a symptom of his disease, the regulatory response of his body might be constantly elevated endogenous EPO levels (coupled with maybe decreased sensitivity to EPO) in general. Thus, GAS6 by itself might be all that is needed to have his body produce a response which otherwise might only be achieved by giving (possibly high doses of) rEPO. Elevated levels of endogenous EPO will not show up in doping controls because it's not rEPO. GAS6 might not show up because it's not tested for. If that's true, it would be brilliant.

+1.... Too many star's are aligning for this whole thing to be a co-incidence.

Even though the original linking to Dr. Leinders turned out to be a "false-flag", I find it not so incredible to think that the guy is trawling all the available sources for these sort of drugs, particularly in his home country.

It was also very interesting that Thomas Frei rasied the flag on this in a tweet to Paul Kimmage & David Walsh.
Would be interesting to see Brailsford's face if Kimmage put this to him in an interview

 

[King Boonen]

Here's an idea. Since anemia is a symptom of his disease, the regulatory response of his body might be constantly elevated endogenous EPO levels (coupled with maybe decreased sensitivity to EPO) in general. Thus, GAS6 by itself might be all that is needed to have his body produce a response which otherwise might only be achieved by giving (possibly high doses of) rEPO. Elevated levels of endogenous EPO will not show up in doping controls because it's not rEPO. GAS6 might not show up because it's not tested for. If that's true, it would be brilliant.

All of the research I've found on GA S6, which is one paper, states that GA S6 will only return hematocrit to normal levels, it does not cause the overproduction of red blood cells.

The other question is why would he use GA S6? It is not an approved treatment anywhere in the world and it would be extremely silly for him to use it considering he can actually show a need for a treatment and get a legitimate TUE. It appears to have not even undergone stage 1 clinical trials.

It does not do the same thing as EPO.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Here's an idea. Since anemia is a symptom of his disease, the regulatory response of his body might be constantly elevated endogenous EPO levels (coupled with maybe decreased sensitivity to EPO) in general. Thus, GAS6 by itself might be all that is needed to have his body produce a response which otherwise might only be achieved by giving (possibly high doses of) rEPO. Elevated levels of endogenous EPO will not show up in doping controls because it's not rEPO. GAS6 might not show up because it's not tested for. If that's true, it would be brilliant.

From this article - which is very good:-

http://gerard.cc/2013/07/15/stop-asking-questions/

I read the comments section below it and saw this from someone.

Reply
Lance rising Says:

July 15, 2013 at 22:06

There are no new drugs.
Sky are laughing and high fiving behind closed doors.
Is a special protein a drug?
This is clean racing at it’s finest.

 

[King Boonen]

Is a special protein a drug?

From 2004;

http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v22/n5/full/nbt0504-521.html

I'm not sure what you mean by special?

There is currently a move towards biologics within the pharmaceutical industry.

 

[Cycle Chic]

"A new way to boost red blood cell numbers." Phys.org. 10 Jan 2008. http://phys.org/news119207350.html
Page

a new study in
mice, by Anne Angelillo-Scherrer and her colleagues at the University Hospital Center and University of
Lausanne, Switzerland, has indicated that the protein Gas6 might augment or replace Epo in the treatment
of patients who are hyporesponsive or resistant to Epo, respectively.
It was shown that following treatment with Epo, mouse rbc precursors released Gas6, which increased cell
signaling in response to Epo treatment.

 

[King Boonen]

"A new way to boost red blood cell numbers." Phys.org. 10 Jan 2008. http://phys.org/news119207350.html
Page

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you are implying with this but it is not talking about doping. It is talking about helping people who are poor responders to EPO when used as a treatment for anemia. There is no proof that GA S6 will either boost RBC production in healthy individuals, in fact the research shows the opposite, or will increase the effect of EPO doping in healthy individuals.

GA S6 looks like it may aid recovery, which would certainly be a concern, but again there is no proof for this.

 

[Cobblestones]

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you are implying with this but it is not talking about doping. It is talking about helping people who are poor responders to EPO when used as a treatment for anemia. There is no proof that GA S6 will either boost RBC production in healthy individuals, in fact the research shows the opposite, or will increase the effect of EPO doping in healthy individuals.

GA S6 looks like it may aid recovery, which would certainly be a concern, but again there is no proof for this.

You missed the fact that Froome isn't a healthy individual. What does the study say about patients with schistosomiasis? Or about cyclists in the middle of a three-week GT when Hct levels are plummeting like a rock?

 

[King Boonen]

You missed the fact that Froome isn't a healthy individual. What does the study say about patients with schistosomiasis? Or about cyclists in the middle of a three-week GT when Hct levels are plummeting like a rock?

Nothing, it was done on mice. If Froome is currently suffering from anemia due to Schitosomiasis then he will have a TUE to treat it, he doesn't need to use a completely untested and unregulated drug. His treatment will be cloesly monitored and will be allowed to return him to a normal level, it is not a free pass to dope.

You'll notice at the end of my post I actually answered your second question, bu there is only a single paper, that I can find, to support this.

 

[Mr.38%]

Pretty good read: "Measuring the Impact of Schistosomiasis Infection on Different Blood Parameters"

Full text

 

[Cobblestones]

Nothing, it was done on mice. If Froome is currently suffering from anemia due to Schitosomiasis then he will have a TUE to treat it, he doesn't need to use a completely untested and unregulated drug. His treatment will be cloesly monitored and will be allowed to return him to a normal level, it is not a free pass to dope.

You'll notice at the end of my post I actually answered your second question, bu there is only a single paper, that I can find, to support this.

No, he doesn't need to use a completely untested and unregulated drug to treat anemia. But he might need it to win the TdF.

 

[King Boonen]

No, he doesn't need to use a completely untested and unregulated drug to treat anemia. But he might need it to win the TdF.

Pure speculation based on unfounded opinions is not helpful to a discussion. There are much easier ways to dope and win as has been shown.


By the way, GA S6 is a protein so would have to be taken subcutaneously, probably intravenously. Needle marks are pretty obvious and I'm guessing doping control check for them?

 

[Cobblestones]

Pure speculation based on unfounded opinions is not helpful to a discussion. There are much easier ways to dope and win as has been shown.


By the way, GA S6 is a protein so would have to be taken subcutaneously, probably intravenously. Needle marks are pretty obvious and I'm guessing doping control check for them?

As to speculation, that's the point of the clinic, isn't it? Otherwise we would need to sit on our hands for a decade waiting for Froome to show up on Oprah's couch.

Needle marks? Sure, they found plenty of those after refill day in the past ... not.

And to imagine WADA checks every square inch of every gluteus maximus they get their hands on (where do they recruit the chaperons for that job, btw?). Think of the conversation: Is that a pimple or a needle mark? Let's take a photo and send it to the lab. Or the excuses: no, I drove into a barbed wire yesterday, so that's not a needle mark, I swear.