GB Track Team

[biker jk]

So $22k AU not including chain, wheels, seat or tyres.

Another $3k (pounds?) for a helmet.

I'll take 10 thanks.

Nothing the profits from a favourable Libor set couldn't afford.

 

[TubularBills]

Agree, I HATE people making claims or quoting people / orgs without links. Apologies:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=903697#p903697

Quoting a Blog/thread hardly qualifies as a link.

Do you have something more credible?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Perhaps he was doped to compete on the track in his chosen pursuit hehe, the pursuit, and could not translate to the road. And then he doped and trained specifically for the road after 2008 Beijing.

Which is what almost everyone here (except krebs) has suggested, as translating fro the track to Grand Tour winner has basically never been achieved before except by Coppi, Merckx (after hour record, not pursuit) TDF, a blood doped Moser (after hour record, not pursuit) with a hand picked flat Giro. And these guys were already on the road.

Roger Riviere was a world pursuit champ and was poised to win or at least place highly until he crashed an ended his career. Even so, the pursuiter -> GT contender route is still very rare indeed, but I think Wiggo is a very rare type of athlete!

I still don't buy the thought that Wiggo would dope to win on the track in 2004 and then leave it to 2008 to dope specifically to do well in the Tour. As a winner on the track, Wiggo would not be happy to get a kicking in the GTs between Athens and Beijing. To accept the kicking whilst clean seems logical, but to have already crossed the line on doping and still take three years to address the issue seems unlikely.

Maybe it was a matter of opportunity, but his big improvement came whilst at Garmin as a low profile roadie, so there's no obvious reason why he couldn't dope to the same level in 2006-2008 and he did in 2009. It's not like he needed the Sky machinery to support the doping, as his 2009 performances demonstrate.

 

[the big ring]

Quoting a Blog/thread hardly qualifies as a link.

Do you have something more credible?

wtn are you talking about. I said someone at WW enquired and got prices, someone asked for the link, I linked to WW. How is credibility of any relevance?

 

[simoni]

Been thinking about this "pursuiter - GT contender" thing. The only one I can think of in the modern era, quite pertinently given the backdrop to this discussion, is Brad McGee (Giro '04 - 8th?). Not sure if anyone has mentioned him yet as theres too far back in this thread to go.

McGee also one of the most vehement anti-dope voices of his era as I recall.

My experience is more from running than cycling but I've seen many (admittedly slightly sub-elite) runners performing equivalently well over distances from 1500m (<4mins) to half marathon (60-70mins) and even marathon through a change in training emphasis.

Also, Haile Gebrselassie has a strong range over 1500m/3000m up to marathon - genuinely world class performances across the whole spectrum. There aren't many of these guys but there are some.

 

[spalco]

AUS and GER have both tried to buy the GB bikes and helmets and have not been able to.

AUS and GBR have both tried to buy the FES bikes and have not been able to.

as much as they claim they are commercially available (both the GB and FES bikes), they are not. the initial emails get a response with a huge $ quote to scare people away - i know AUS accepted GB's quote in writing but surprise surprise there was no further response from GB.

The Germans aren't even riding FES bikes, Levy for example was using that beautiful (imo) Look track bike in the Keirin.

 

[sittingbison]

Been thinking about this "pursuiter - GT contender" thing...Haile Gebrselassie has a strong range over 1500m/3000m up to marathon - genuinely world class performances across the whole spectrum. There aren't many of these guys but there are some.

The problem always comes back to this: all the names mentioned (except Moser lol) are outright champions in whatever pursuit (sorry couldn't help it hehe) they chose to perform in - Coppi, Merckx, Riviere, and non-cyclists like Gebrselassie. Wiggo was not, he had all those years in the autobus just avoiding the broome cart, then whammo!

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

My experience is more from running than cycling but I've seen many (admittedly slightly sub-elite) runners performing equivalently well over distances from 1500m (<4mins) to half marathon (60-70mins) and even marathon through a change in training emphasis.

Not forgetting Steve Ovett, who in 1977 ran a half marathon in borrowed kit in ~65 minutes, beating the cream of the UK's marathon runners, two weeks before demolishing the world's best over 1500m in the World Cup, including the legendary 11.9s for the penultimate 100m.

In 1978, he ran 1:44.1 for 800m shortly before beating Henry Rono to break the 2 mile world record, the same season that Rono broke the WR over 3k, 3k steeplechase, 5k and 10k.

Some people are just depressingly good!

 

[red_death]

That's really vague "something new", I am talking about real fundamentals that change the sport/training methods.

What more vague than accusations of doping based on errr nothing...

=> Note that someone just told me that its a logical falacy that a doped athlete can only be beaten by another doped athlete. if we disregard history this certainly seems plausible. But how do the genetics work here? Is there no genetic specimen in the world who can overcome the advantage of this new mysterious training method? Not a single cyclist?

You really don't get it do you? Of course it is a logical fallacy that only a doped athlete could beat another doped athlete - fill me full of PEDs and EPO and make me train like a b*tch and I am still not going to beat Bauge/Kenny/Hoy etc

 

[Benotti69]

I reckon the TeamGB fans in 4 years will be screaming in here about the Chinese about taking nearly all the Golds on offer and how they MUST be DOPING to beat TeamGB and with even less evidence than we have on TeamGB.

 

[lemoogle]

About the wheels, clearly the French staff isn't actually thinking it's the wheels. They just know there's something extra. When has a country been allowed to accuse another of doping? never. When has a country been allowed to accuse another of cheating?
The one thing they're using this wheel thing for is to say that there's nothing they can do, and that it's not about skill or the athlete's preparation. Either this has become an arms race , or a dope race. Same for road cycling if you want my opinion... if you think the other teams are just going to stand there and let sky dominated them.... the sport is going backwards again.

 

[lemoogle]

What more vague than accusations of doping based on errr nothing...



You really don't get it do you? Of course it is a logical fallacy that only a doped athlete could beat another doped athlete - fill me full of PEDs and EPO and make me train like a b*tch and I am still not going to beat Bauge/Kenny/Hoy etc

The issue is that he only beats him once every four years. If I was a specific genetic case, that would be true all years.
We can accuse Bauge of doping, but looking at his performances, he does it all 4 years. What kenny does is once every 4 years, and if that means becoming a superior natural athlete every 4 years then sure.

 

[the big ring]

About the wheels, clearly the French staff isn't actually thinking it's the wheels. They just know there's something extra. When has a country been allowed to accuse another of doping? never. When has a country been allowed to accuse another of cheating?
The one thing they're using this wheel thing for is to say that there's nothing they can do, and that it's not about skill or the athlete's preparation. Either this has become an arms race , or a dope race. Same for road cycling if you want my opinion... if you think the other teams are just going to stand there and let sky dominated them.... the sport is going backwards again.

Mavic is a French wheel company.

 

[lemoogle]

Mavic is a French wheel company.

French private company. And this means?

 

[GJB123]

I like the London Olympics but the Brits do have a hypocrisy issue. They are shouting bloody murder over a 15 (or was its 16) year old Chinese swimmer "cleaning up" in the pool, but say nothing about GB Track Team cleaning up in a fashion the Chinese swimmers can only dream off.

They think Bauge is a bad looser specifically because he suggests doping for GB Track Team while being a convicted whereabouts violator (and thus naturally a doper), but they do cheer for Christine Ohuruogu.

In favor of Kenny though is that it has been shown in the past that you can be a blindingly fast sprinter without looking like the Hulk. Theo Bos already proved that point.

For now the GB Track Team results are suspicious to anyone with half a working brain. However there is indeed no proof and it might be possible they achieved it clean. And lets'be honest UK athletes wouldn't cheat now would they? That won't be sporting and all that.

Regards
GJ

 

[red_death]

The issue is that he only beats him once every four years. If I was a specific genetic case, that would be true all years.
We can accuse Bauge of doping, but looking at his performances, he does it all 4 years. What kenny does is once every 4 years, and if that means becoming a superior natural athlete every 4 years then sure.

Why would he beat him every year? Motivation, willingness to train as hard, prioritisation all come into play. It isn't as though he is a no hoper for 3 years and then pulls something completely different out of the bag - we are talking fractions of a second difference here.

 

[wannab]

What more vague than accusations of doping based on errr nothing...

I can understand u want to defense against (false) accusations, I never made them and that wasn't my point. I just don't agree with people claiming SKY and now Team GB are on superior sport science.

 

[the big ring]

And when the UCI introduced their ridiculous "approved wheel" process, we note

1. Mavic wheels were the ones that were spontaneously and dangerously exploding into life-threatening shards
2. (I believe) Mavic are providing the wheel testing facility.

 

[Benotti69]

I can understand u want to defense against (false) accusations, I never made them and that wasn't my point. I just don't agree with people claiming SKY and now Team GB are on superior sport science.

Is Chemistry not a science?

I think it is, and they are ahead with their chemical preparation

 

[red_death]

I like the London Olympics but the Brits do have a hypocrisy issue. They are shouting bloody murder over a 15 (or was its 16) year old Chinese swimmer "cleaning up" in the pool, but say nothing about GB Track Team cleaning up in a fashion the Chinese swimmers can only dream off.

Actually the majority of the British presenters defended her against the accusation from a USA coach...but don't let facts get in the way of things.

They think Bauge is a bad looser specifically because he suggests doping for GB Track Team while being a convicted whereabouts violator (and thus naturally a doper), but they do cheer for Christine Ohuorogu.

I don't actually think Bauge dopes - he was guilty of the same thing as Ohurogu ie missing tests. What riles about Bauge is his ungraciousness in defeat...

And lets'be honest UK athletes wouldn't cheat now would they? That won't be sporting and all that.

Of course some would - that is beyond doubt, but individuals cheating and systematic cheating are very different things. No one is trying to pretend that the UK athletes are all perfect and whiter than white - that would be ridiculous given the history of Millar, Ohurogu, Myerscough, Chambers etc.

 

[Benotti69]

I don't actually think Bauge dopes - he was guilty of the same thing as Ohurogu ie missing tests. What riles about Bauge is his ungraciousness in defeat...

Missing tests is the equivalent of doping but dont lets facts get in the way.


Alex Rasmussen banned for 18 months for missing 3 OOC tests.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I like the London Olympics but the Brits do have a hypocrisy issue. They are shouting bloody murder over a 15 (or was its 16) year old Chinese swimmer "cleaning up" in the pool, but say nothing about GB Track Team cleaning up in a fashion the Chinese swimmers can only dream off.

I think you need to be a bit careful here. The mainstream UK media was very swift to distance itself from the accusations levelled at the Chinese swimmer. They reported the comments of the American guy, but the "comment" type pieces generally took the view put forward by Ian thorpe and Mark Foster on the BBC that swimmers aged 15 do improve by massive amounts from one year to the next, but that it's usually in lower profile competitions than the OGs so less noticeable.

The "Brits" (as if 60 million people can every have a single view) appear not to care, so long as gold medals are being won. There was uproar in 1996 when GB won but a single gold medal, and the general view was that "something had to be done". Something has been done, and the Brits are happy, so can afford to be magnanimous to all their vanquished foes. Even the French.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I like the London Olympics but the Brits do have a hypocrisy issue. They are shouting bloody murder over a 15 (or was its 16) year old Chinese swimmer "cleaning up" in the pool, but say nothing about GB Track Team cleaning up in a fashion the Chinese swimmers can only dream off.

These accusations were made by an American coach and there has been no follow-up witch hunt in the UK media so essentially a baseless accusation.

Bauge was reported to be 'geuinely curious' at what Kenny has been doing in preparation in the media I have read, rather than a poor loser. Given his missed tests he gets no sympathy from me, but even that hasn't been made an issue of.

Seems yet another ill-informed dig at the British. And in this forum, what a surprise

 

[GJB123]

Well excuse my hyperbole, but you can say whatever you like but I distinctly remember Miss Balding on the BBC (mainstream enough?) no less questioning the exploits of Ye in relation to possible illicit methods. Now I could be mistaken, but I do not seem to remember any such questions being asked in the Velodrome. There it was more hooray's and Britannia rules the waves all the way.

Regards
GJ

 

[red_death]

Missing tests is the equivalent of doping but dont lets facts get in the way.

Alex Rasmussen banned for 18 months for missing 3 OOC tests.

Err no it isn't - why was Bauge not banned for 2 years? Or Ohurogu?

The Wada code actually specifies 2 years for failed tests and min 1 year (max 2 years) for missed tests. Though application of reductions seems much more variable for missed tests.

Source: http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/W...DP-The-Code/WADA_Anti-Doping_CODE_2009_EN.pdf