GB Track Team

[DirtyWorks]

Sure, the doctors are out there, selling their wares - and there may well be (probably are) Brits visiting them. This isn't the same as a top down organised drug programme encompassing both a national and a pro team.

Hard to say. It depends on your interpretation of "team wide."

Let's say a team has a meeting with riders and says, "If you want to dope, then go see this guy. If you don't, that's okay." Implicitly though, riders need results... Is that team wide doping?

Let's say a rider has a meeting with the DS to discuss their recent performance and it has been found lacking for whatever reason. The rider says, "Help me DS!" and DS sends the rider to a doctor with a well-established doping past. Is that team-wide doping?

Another thread where the Marion Jones and the "never tested positive" problem raises it's ugly head.

 

[the big ring]

I was scratching my head as well.

Good grief. I blame Cycle Chic's cut and paste butchery of the same article posted elsewhere for this. (??)

No evidence at all. ESL perhaps?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Can anyone point to an organised programme of this size and duration that existed at any time in any sport outside a totalitarian country?

Chris Carmichael and Rene Wenzel running USA Cycling is one that had a Junior doping program.

Before Carmichael there was the infamous Eddie B. in the U.S. doping during the 1984 Olympics.

Conconi/Ferrari/others in Italy who got UCI/IOC R&D money for developing an EPO test only to use it to dope Italian Pros.

I'm sure there are others.

 

[Hawkwood]

Good grief. I blame Cycle Chic's cut and paste butchery of the same article posted elsewhere for this. (??)

No evidence at all. ESL perhaps?

The original article appears to have been in the Daily Mail, however two sentences that state the osteoporosis ran in Boardman's family have been chopped out.

Edit - Okay just checked the first part of the article contains the sentences about it running in the family. The piece quoted above is from later in the article.

 

[Chris Hoy's Fat Dad]

Oh man this is too funny I had to post something. I mean unless I've missed something in the last seventy odd pages there is literally NO evidence that the GB track team is not clean.

If a totally unknown mechanic came out and said something like "I don't know how we've done so well, perhaps they put something in the food in the canteen!", then this is what you might call "utterly worthless evidence". But let me check, yes, we don't even have anything like this.

The problem with the tin foil hat brigade (and that is exactly what you are, let's be honest this is not even a whole step above Illuminati lizard men killing Princess Di) is that no one ever asks you to lay out your whole ridiculous theory in full. If I've correctly assembled all your "evidence" it goes something like this...

LOLOLO1!1 You really think a country with 15x the funding as anyone else could win 70% of the events AT THEIR OWN GAMES>!?! yeah yeah pass the kool aid how can GB come out of nowhere I mean repeat their performance in bejing I mean look at their athletes they're juiced/skinny you don't have to dope during the games you can dope in training why else would they peak just for olympics and be weak during the other years. Seriously yeah, yeah the women's pursuit team is ok we know that but do u realize in the world championships they beat USA by 4.9 seconds and at the olympics they SOMEHOW beat them by 5.6 SECONDS??? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IS 0.7 SECONDS FROM NOWHERE. oh yeah they decided to peak for their home olympics rather than the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS as I've already explained they were juiced all the way through the world championships for the last three i mean four i mean ten years - THIS IS WHY THEIR PERFORMANCES ARE SO MYSTERIOUSLY CONSISTENT. In conclusion, the most reasonable thing to suspect is grand conspiracy rising to at least the level of ban ki moon.

 

[buckle]

So he had low levels of Testosterone and never used drugs to raise it. I must have missed the evidence?

Chris was prescribed drug treatment that arrests the natural destruction of old bone cells and allows the creation of new cells to catch up. During the final two years of his career he received treatment intravenously every two months at the Royal Liverpool hospital ... 'I've never had any other symptoms - I don't break bones easily or notice any effects of low testosterone,' he says.

In other words there was nothing wrong with him.

N.B. Curious how all of those in Mo Farah's training camp suffer from thyroid conditions ...

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

...the manner in which they won the pursuit is pretty unbelievable. Noone would have been surprised by Team GB winning the pursuit, but winning it 5 seconds ahead of Australia and beating their world record on each single ride is suspect, even more so in conjunction with the other other-worldly performances form the Team GB track team.

I assume you refer to the GB men, as the women didn't race Australia, in which case, the following clarification maybe useful:

GB only broke the WR twice, rather than three times. Still impressive, though.

GB didn't win by 5 seconds. They won by 2.9 seconds.

Australia were 1.2s faster in the World Champs in April than in the recent OG final. Had they performed to their previous level, the final would have been mighty close.

If you're talking about the women, then the TP is a very new event and the WR has been pretty soft up to now. It still is a bit soft, if you ask me. Over the last couple of years, the competition to get in the GB women's squad for the OGs has been fierce. The likes of Houenhagel, Romero and Armitstead have all fallen by the wayside during selection despite having a stack of world and Olympic medals between them. I would think that this level of competition has forced up standards relative to other countries where the challenge is to find event three ladies of a suitable standard. The US for example is Sarah Hammer plus two deperately hanging on for survival.

The margin in the women's final is somewhat misleading as the US were 3s slower than in the first round, so the GB margin of superiority in terms of best performance is less than 3 seconds. Still mighty impressive, but given the struggle to even get in the squad, perhaps not a surprise.

To be brutally honest, the level of competition in track cycling is very thin, as there are very few countries with the infrastructure to run an operation like the GB set up, and only the Aussies really bother, if truth be told.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Chris was prescribed drug treatment that arrests the natural destruction of old bone cells and allows the creation of new cells to catch up. During the final two years of his career he received treatment intravenously every two months at the Royal Liverpool hospital ... 'I've never had any other symptoms - I don't break bones easily or notice any effects of low testosterone,' he says.

Have you got the link for that quote? What were the drugs?

Found the link

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/diets/article-1227777/CHRIS-BOARDMAN-I-cycling-32-I-bones-old-woman.html

but where does it say steroids was the treatment?

 

[Hawkwood]

Chris was prescribed drug treatment that arrests the natural destruction of old bone cells and allows the creation of new cells to catch up. During the final two years of his career he received treatment intravenously every two months at the Royal Liverpool hospital ... 'I've never had any other symptoms - I don't break bones easily or notice any effects of low testosterone,' he says.

In other words there was nothing wrong with him.

N.B. Curious how all of those in Mo Farah's training camp suffer from thyroid conditions ...

Nothing wrong apart from low bone density, and a testosterone deficiency that led to him fatiguing easily. According to the article the the testosterone deficiency was not addressed during his time as a pro.

 

[Hawkwood]

Have you got the link for that quote? What were the drugs?

Found the link

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/diets/article-1227777/CHRIS-BOARDMAN-I-cycling-32-I-bones-old-woman.html

but where does it say steroids was the treatment?

It doesn't, the article states that the testosterone problem was not addressed when he was a pro.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

It doesn't, the article states that the testosterone problem was not addressed when he was a pro.

Exactly. Not going to waste my time anymore with a probable troll whose best evidence is the Daily Mail.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Chris was prescribed drug treatment that arrests the natural destruction of old bone cells and allows the creation of new cells to catch up.

...

In other words there was nothing wrong with him.

This is outrageous. Boardman misappropriating NHS resources to fuel his undeserved cycling career. Call the Feds in!

 

[Damien]

Forgive me if I am wrong but if the GB Team was doping that would be the entire team right? They would have to have done it this Olympics and the last at the very least. Give Team Sky's results then it would probably apply there as well.

Wouldn't this be the largest and most high-profile doping scandal ever? It wouldn't be one person with a dodgy doctor on the sly, it would be a concerted effort amongst a large amount of people that has occurred for at least 4 years without being detected? Not only would they have been able to trick the testers for that time but they also managed to keep it quiet, even amongst cyclists that have left the team and maybe even have a grudge against them.

It seems quite unlikely. I also think it's worth noting that some of the gold medals weren't a surprise. The Woman's sprint team were already world champions, Trott was already a favorite for the omnium, Hoy was favorite for the Keirin and so on. I don't think any of them were a massive surprise, especially given the advantage of a home crowd.

It seems very implausible that they are all doped up.

 

[the big ring]

I also think it's worth noting that some of the gold medals weren't a surprise. The Woman's sprint team were already world champions, Trott was already a favorite for the omnium, Hoy was favorite for the Keirin and so on. I don't think any of them were a massive surprise, especially given the advantage of a home crowd.

It seems very implausible that they are all doped up.

Do you have a link to the claims the athletes above were favourites? And before you post them, are any of the links for news orgs outside the UK that actually understand cycling?

It does seem implausible to me that they are all doped up, agreed. But by the same token, the fact that every single athlete peaked at just the right time, and every athlete broke a WR in the process of competing seems equally implausible - to me.

 

[Damien]

Do you have a link to the claims the athletes above were favourites? And before you post them, are any of the links for news orgs outside the UK that actually understand cycling?

It does seem implausible to me that they are all doped up, agreed. But by the same token, the fact that every single athlete peaked at just the right time, and every athlete broke a WR in the process of competing seems equally implausible - to me.

I am not going to link to every athlete but Trott and the Woman's Pursuit Team were champions from the World Championships were they not? L'Equipe seems to think Hoy was favorite (I have no idea if they 'understand cycling or not'). Wiggins seemed favorite for the time trial. The big surprise seems to be Kenny but even he was expected to be in the final.

Other, non-British, athletes were breaking records as well. I didn't think Hoy broke a record in the Keirin did he? nor did Wiggins? The others did but wasn't the woman's team pursuit quite new and the overall perception of the velodrome quite quick?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_UCI_Track_Cycling_World_Championships

Great Britain hardly came from nowhere in three months and people have suggested. Great Britain already had:

Hoy as Men's Keirin Champion
King,Trott and Rowsell as Team Pursuit Champions
Trott as Omnium Champion
They were Men's team pursuit Champions
Kenny came second in the Men's Sprint
Pendleton was the Woman's Sprint Champion (although came 2nd in the Olympics).
The Men's team sprint team were regulated so don't know how that would have turned out.

Great Britain came 2nd to the home nation of Australia and equalled their gold count. Their weakest events happen to be ones that don't take place in the Olympic Games. In fact you look at the races there where Britain won gold in the Olympics and they were often close to be champions, champions, or regulated. All of that and home advantage.

No other nation came close in the World Champions to the haul of Australia and Britain. So the real question isn't why Britain became so good all of a sudden, they already seemed strong, but where were Australia.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Drinking and partying in Spain.

Good hard training for a peak that is.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I said IF you believe they're clean , then that's what it comes down to. If you want to win with better tech rather than better athletes then sure.
Although you have a point, where is the limit where it's too much? a motor in your bike is too much but what about all the things in between? This is why there is regulations for F1 and other motor sports.

People compete with the same canoes in canoeing , there are no more suits in swimming, one day people will compete with the same equipment in cycling.

Tri-bas, cleats and clipless, teardrop helmet, aluminium, carbon fibre, freewheel, elecdtonic shifting, gears...where do you want me to stop? Tech dives the medium forward, always has done. What is shocking today is standard tomorrow. Most countries rely on bike companies to supply it, we make our own, and yes, maybe it is the fastest bike out there but that shouldn't devalue the achievement.

Maybe they should be standard steel bikes outside on long concrete tracks, then we will see who is the best, eh?

 

[buckle]

It doesn't, the article states that the testosterone problem was not addressed when he was a pro.

Chris was prescribed drug treatment that arrests the natural destruction of old bone cells and allows the creation of new cells to catch up. During the final two years of his career he received treatment intravenously every two months at the Royal Liverpool hospital ... 'I've never had any other symptoms - I don't break bones easily or notice any effects of low testosterone,' he says.

 

[BroDeal]

Tri-bas, cleats and clipless, teardrop helmet, aluminium, carbon fibre, freewheel, elecdtonic shifting, gears...where do you want me to stop? Tech dives the medium forward, always has done. What is shocking today is standard tomorrow. Most countries rely on bike companies to supply it, we make our own, and yes, maybe it is the fastest bike out there but that shouldn't devalue the achievement.

Most countries abide by the rules. GB is cheating.

 

[Avoriaz]

Bizarrely, the British continue to hold Tom "put me back on my bike" Simpson as a sports icon.

Only as being a pioneer in terms of taking his bike on the ferry and mixing it with the continentals. That was a rareity before him. Anyone in the UK who has heard of Tom Simpson is also well aware of what happened to him and why. They don't fete him for the amphetamines

 

[Avoriaz]

Do you have a link to the claims the athletes above were favourites?

Would he need to post a link to suggest that Chris Hoy, Mens Team Pursuit, Womens Team Pursuit and Victoria Pendleton might have been amongst the favourites for their events? You'd struggle to find one that suggests in any way they weren't

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Most countries abide by the rules. GB is cheating.

Out of interest, who makes the final call on the legality of bikes for the OGs?

Boardman was saying on telly during the Tour that every nut and bolt of the GB Olympic bikes had been approved by the UCI, specifically to avoid any surprises during the Games themselves. As the UCI are the final arbiters of what's allowed in Olympic bike races, if they say the bikes are OK then they're OK, one would think. Are you saying that different bikes were used to those approved?

If I didn't know better, I'd say you were inventing rules that don't actually apply, so you can claim GB are cheating by breaking them.

 

[BroDeal]

The shady performance of Wiggins, Froome, Porte, and Rogers on a team run by Brailsford casts suspicion on the whole GB track program. It might not be fair but it is what it is. GB cheating with illegal equipment does not help.

 

[Hawkwood]

Chris was prescribed drug treatment that arrests the natural destruction of old bone cells and allows the creation of new cells to catch up. During the final two years of his career he received treatment intravenously every two months at the Royal Liverpool hospital ... 'I've never had any other symptoms - I don't break bones easily or notice any effects of low testosterone,' he says.

Didn't you post exactly the same quotes earlier? If you read the Mail article he noticed that he was suffering from fatigue easily, and a doctor diagnosed low testosterone/low bone density. This is a direct quote from the article:

`Anyone with low levels of the hormone will struggle to keep up their stamina - as, among other things, testosterone improves endurance. I was pleased to understand what had been going wrong.
I would always start races well, but after a few days my energy would be totally spent. Doctors told me my cycling did me no favours because excessive exercise can further drain testosterone levels.'

He applied to the UCI to be allowed to use testosterone treatment, but that was refused, he goes on:

`With my heart set on the 2000 Olympics I decided to try another treatment, but that helped my bones and not my fatigue.'

The article appears to suggest that the drug he was in fact given was bisphosphanate.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Most countries abide by the rules. GB is cheating.

With their magic wheels?