GB Track Team

[red_death]

Is there going to be any meat on the bones of this thread?

Can anyone name me one person, however tenuous their connection to GBTrack, who says that they know of doping within the team?

Otherwise, this truly is 60 pages of hot air.

+1. Of course they can't - don't be ridiculous!

 

[lemoogle]

All I said was it was more plausible that bolt could improve more than his competitors in 3 months. Bolt proved that his physique could break the limits of what we thought. There have been many riders with the same physique as kenny , no 100m runner really has had the physique of Bolt. If you want to argue that bolt doesn't have a naturally gifted and different physique go ahead.

Your last sentence is a straw man - no one is claiming that. What they are saying is that Bolt was not considered to "fit the bill" for a typical 100m sprinter. In the same way that VP or Kenny was not considered to fit the bill for a typical track sprinter. History has shown us that those pre-conceptions were not necessarily valid, any more than only an East African can win medals in say a 10000m race. Generalisations just do not work (and why should they?).

You realise I answered all your points in the same sentence you were replying to? There hasn't been a sprinter like Bolt before, they were saying he didn't fit the bill , but that wasn't base don previous experience, just thoughts. I also said that Bolt proved his physique to be incredible for the 100m. I ALSO said that there have been many physiques like kenny that have been track sprinters, so Kenny is nothing new body wise , except that they always ended up requiring to build more muscle for more power. I am not generalizing here at all.
And as to your "no one is claiming that", I was simply replying to the "What makes bolt special?" reply to my comment.

Gay isn't really that well built, certainly no more so than Bolt. The main difference is Bolt is just taller.

When I meant built sprinters, I meant more "square" sprinters, look at gay's arms and look at bolt's arms, that's all. Bolt's height along with the muscle shape he has is one of the thing that makes him special.

 

[Franklin]

Is there going to be any meat on the bones of this thread?

Can anyone name me one person, however tenuous their connection to GBTrack, who says that they know of doping within the team?

Otherwise, this truly is 60 pages of hot air.

Is there any meat on the bones of the handwaving?

Can you name one country owning a cycling discipline that has afterwards not have been shown related to doping?

Otherwise all your posing is clearly the illogical position.

 

[Ferminal]

10/11

Men

World Cups: 24 events, 5 gold, 3 silver, 4 bronze (20, 5, 4, 3)

World Champs: 10 events, 0 gold, 2 silver, 2 bronze (5, 0, 2, 2)

Women

World Cups: 23 events, 4 gold, 4 silver, 2 bronze (20, 4, 2, 2)

World Champs: 9 events, 2 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze (5, 2, 1, 0)

 

[lemoogle]

Is there going to be any meat on the bones of this thread?

Can anyone name me one person, however tenuous their connection to GBTrack, who says that they know of doping within the team?

Otherwise, this truly is 60 pages of hot air.

So if you're investigating a murder and no one says "He killed her" about someone, then there's no point investigating the more subtle hints that mean nothing on their own? like a hair strand ? a finger print?

And if you want to call me up on my generalization, I am only replying to one.

 

[spalco]

BBC has the explanations regarding those unfair accusations. Hoy was the only rider wearing aero helmet, and then puts on "hot pants" (whatever that is). That makes the difference.

 

[the big ring]

BBC has the explanations regarding those unfair accusations. Hoy was the only rider wearing aero helmet, and then puts on "hot pants" (whatever that is). That makes the difference.

Did you hear the BBC commentator? Something along the lines of

"They've discovered that aerodynamics matter". (or something similar).

Uh huh.

 

[JimmyFingers]

more magic wheels guff

Gautheron speculated that "I don't know if it's possible to put a mechanism or a sort of gear inside. Perhaps there is a mechanism inside [the wheels] that increases inertia to gain or retain speed. Perhaps I am fantasising."

 

[Ferminal]

11/12

Men

World Cups: 31 events, 3 gold, 2 silver, 1 bronze (20, 3, 2, 1)

World Champs: 10 events, 3 gold, 3 silver, 2 bronze (5, 2, 1, 2)

Women

World Cups: 28 events, 4 gold, 2 silver, 2 bronze (20, 3, 1, 2)

World Champs: 9 events, 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze (5, 3, 0, 0)

 

[red_death]

You realise I answered all your points in the same sentence you were replying to? There hasn't been a sprinter like Bolt before, they were saying he didn't fit the bill , but that wasn't base don previous experience, just thoughts. I also said that Bolt proved his physique to be incredible for the 100m. I ALSO said that there have been many physiques like kenny that have been track sprinters, so Kenny is nothing new body wise , except that they always ended up requiring to build more muscle for more power. I am not generalizing here at all.

What nonsense - Carl Lewis (ditto Tommie Smith and I am sure others) wasn't exactly shy of Bolt's height (4 cm shorter) and he wasn't half as bulky as many sprinters.

But even if it were true about Bolt being some how unique (ie tall and still a good sprinter) then it is still a nonsense generalisation as the fact that someone has the same physique does not mean they will perform the same.

Why can't you just accept that people are individual? Much simpler (occam's razor and all that) to explain differences in performance than magic wheels/doping etc.

 

[mastersracer]

Is there any meat on the bones of the handwaving?

Can you name one country owning a cycling discipline that has afterwards not have been shown related to doping?

Otherwise all your posing is clearly the illogical position.

guess you slept through the 2008 Olympics?

 

[Bumeington]

I'm not sure about the logic of

"Team Sky are doping, Brailsford runs team Sky, Brailsford runs the track team, therefore the track team must be doping... and must have been doping for years".

Here's a theory (with a bunch of assumptions underlying it):

Team GB were successful on the track (and on the road for women) clean. They achieved this by working on the science of the sport (with a superior budget).

They then set up Team Sky in the belief they could teach road racing "how it's done" by using the same science - and by not using people with a drug past. (With the exception of Yates.)

The figurehead was to be Wiggins who showed his ability by finishing 4th in the 2009 tour.

2010 was a disaster for Sky. They had no consistency, and no results.

At the end of that season, they admitted they needed more road expertise behind the scenes - and that that would mean bringing in people with "tarnished" pasts. So they brought in this Rabobank doctor.

They soon realised that Wiggins wasn't that good. That his 2009 result wasn't a sign of better things to come, but a case of a dog having his day.

They may have been told (perhaps by their doctor) they had no chance of dominating on the road unless they juiced, because (some) rivals were juicing. (Or maybe it was Yates that came to that conclusion.)

So, faced with the choice between:

(a) being a bunch of also rans
(b) closing down the team
(c) juicing

they chose the 3rd option.

And, from 2011, they were suddenly operating at a different level.

Now, of course, this is just a theory.

But it's one way to be very sceptical about the mens road racers, without needing to believe Brailsford has been running a programme for a decade without someone breaking ranks.

Wiggins power numbers (as reported by Vaughters in 2009 and Yates in 2012) seem to have remained constant in the 10 mile TTs ~480W

 

[red_death]

Is there any meat on the bones of the handwaving?

Can you name one country owning a cycling discipline that has afterwards not have been shown related to doping?

Otherwise all your posing is clearly the illogical position.

Really - so where are the pages accusing the French when they owned the sprint events? Or when the Aussies were ruling the team pursuits?

Dominance = doping leaves you with no chance of ever believing any winner in sport. Sad for you really...

 

[lemoogle]

Really - so where are the pages accusing the French when they owned the sprint events? Or when the Aussies were ruling the team pursuits?

Dominance = doping leaves you with no chance of ever believing any winner in sport. Sad for you really...

The French have been "at" the top of sprint for over 10 years. If they came out of nowhere every 4 years then your threads would be there.
There is a difference in believing a winner that constantly improves and raises to dominate on a longterm, than in and out domination. As for road cycling, it's been pretty clear than when someone suddenly destroys everyone else, they've ALWAYS been doped.

 

[Marco Pantani]

Has there ever been such a dominance in track racing before?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

The French have been "at" the top of sprint for over 10 years. If they came out of nowhere every 4 years then your threads would be there.

Where is it that GB have come out of nowhere every 4 years? Do you watch the worlds? Just because Bauge said it does make it so.

 

[red_death]

The French have been "at" the top of sprint for over 10 years. If they came out of nowhere every 4 years then your threads would be there.
There is a difference in believing a winner that constantly improves and raises to dominate on a longterm, than in and out domination. As for road cycling, it's been pretty clear than when someone suddenly destroys everyone else, they've ALWAYS been doped.

How many times has Hoy been beaten in the Keirin in the last 4 years? Or the Women's TP? Or until relatively recently Pendleton - world champ in the sprint 2007-10? Or had a full men's TP team? None of that is exactly hiding for 4 years...

I don't think it is any surprise that if you have won everything then motivating yourself is more difficult (Hoy and Pendleton), but you know what it takes when it matters to you.

 

[the big ring]

11/12
Men

World Cups: 31 events, 3 gold, 2 silver, 1 bronze (20, 3, 2, 1)

World Champs: 10 events, 3 gold, 3 silver, 2 bronze (5, 2, 1, 2)

Women

World Cups: 28 events, 4 gold, 2 silver, 2 bronze (20, 3, 1, 2)

World Champs: 9 events, 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze (5, 3, 0, 0)

Where is it that GB have come out of nowhere every 4 years? Do you watch the worlds? Just because Bauge said it does make it so.

2012 OG: 10 events, 6 gold, 0 silver, 1 bronze with a few events yet to come.

Looks pretty close to what Bauge was saying to me.

(Awesome work, btw, Ferminal )

ETA: same number of medals, so possibly way off the mark here.

 

[red_death]

Has there ever been such a dominance in track racing before?

At times the French/Aussies and Germans have been pretty unbeatable.

 

[lemoogle]

Where is it that GB have come out of nowhere every 4 years? Do you watch the worlds? Just because Bauge said it does make it so.

Erm. their performances do actually come out of nowhere, regardless of their positions at the worlds. And yes I actually do watch the worlds thank you, I come from a country where the worlds mean something so we know about them. Look at the team sprint times for the UK if you want. and yes the UK has been at the top of pursuit for a while, but never with no oppositions. 5 second difference suddenly is out of nowhere, along with a million world records.

Also if you want to check the odds for sprint and team sprint from before the olympics go ahead, it will prove my point.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Looks pretty close to what Bauge was saying to me.

How do you get to that conclusion?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Even tough Bauge isn´t the cleanest in the world ... i like him now for being the only one having the guts to ask some questions:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/...wers-kenny-sprint-success-211857546--spt.html

 

[red_death]

2012 OG: 10 events, 6 gold, 0 silver, 1 bronze with a few events yet to come.

Looks pretty close to what Bauge was saying to me.

Only really works if you include non-Olympic events as well.

Erm. their performances do actually come out of nowhere, regardless of their positions at the worlds. And yes I actually do watch the worlds thank you, I come from a country where the worlds mean something so we know about them. Look at the team sprint times for the UK if you want. and yes the UK has been at the top of pursuit for a while, but never with no oppositions. 5 second difference suddenly is out of nowhere, along with a million world records.

Great then you will know that we have a 19 year old (German) riding man 1 and that since 2008 man 1 has been a massive problem for our team sprint.

You will also know that half our team pursuit team didn't focus on the track until the last 6 months or so (and that half of them rode in the previous world record).

Yep, completely implausible and out of nowhere....

 

[buckle]

Men

World Cups: 36 events, 6 gold, 2 silver, 1 bronze (16, 4, 0, 0)

World Champs: 10 events, 2 gold, 1 bronze, 1 silver (5, 2, 1, 1)

Women

World Cups: 32 events, 4 gold, 2 silver, 0 bronze (16, 2, 1, 0)

World Champs: 9 events, 1 gold, 4 silver, 0 bronze (5, 1, 3, 0

Football

World Cups: 1 victory 1966 - the final was played in Timbuktu.

 

[the big ring]

Only really works if you include non-Olympic events as well.

How do you get to that conclusion?

You guys are too quick I modified the post asap, honest!