Geert Leinders

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Feb 22, 2014
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the sceptic said:
Brailsford is both a genius and a moron at the same time. The man who created marginal gains, but not smart enough to do background checks on his doctor.

bot logic at it's finest.
Straight out of the Track Area Manager Manual, that one. Don't think many still think it was more than brand enhancement, a nice story for the supplements. Surely you don't believe it was real?
 
May 26, 2009
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Ventoux Boar said:
Quality post. Cheers. Disagree with this. Brailsford's reputation has taken a battering. Either he's guilty of incompetence in relation to one his brand's key attributes - winning clean - or fraud. And he's one loose word from a shafted former employee away from exposure. While finding him incompetent as a pro-cycling manager, I doubt he would volunteer for this punishment.
I just checked this frontpage. Did you find anything about a dodgy doctor and the first UK winner of the TDF?

Also again, why do you think someone would spill the beans? When does that ever happen? As far as a calculated risk goes this is quite acceptable. And as is currently proven by team "Roompot" with manager Erik Breukink, collective memory of the public is as good as a mayfly.

And to look at his reputation a bit more:
- The problem with Leinders was not from yesterday, this was known for a long time. Nothing seems to have happened since that time.
- His DS is best buddies with the doping courier of Lance. It was a laugh and riot here, but never approached mainstream.
- His claims of clean personell and staff was ridiculous at face value. To no ones surprise they all got exposed immediately after Wiggo's win. Did it in any noticeable way affect DB?
- TUE gate is so amazing that this managed to reach the frontpage of this website. It certainly affected Sky and Froome this year, by now everyone has forgotten about it.

This battering you think of did happen among the Sky fans who post here and by now fully realize they are being naive. Even those who still are "but there's no evidence" can only realize that the cold hard facts are stacked staggeringly against their heroes.

So yeah, DB took a battering... but that battering is in our own perception of him. Not in the eyes of the wider world. Those still think "FIRST UK WINNER. HELL YEAH!"

JRanton said:
De Jongh recommended Leinders.
That's what I remember as being the story as well, but I'm not sure of the source.

There's just so much wrong with that considering his position in the team and his later ousting.
 
Sep 9, 2010
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and they had also hired Matty Hayman and Flecha from Robobank, both for their road knowledge/experience. Any normal position in any position of responsibility would have even a basic chat with 2 key guys who'd worked with Leinders beforehand (assuming they weren't actually the ones promoting him within SKY?).

That would only take 2 minutes out of Brailsford's or Steve Peter's day, without the need to consult their 'telephone book' of recruitment policy.

It's either complete incompetence to not do it (as you would with any prospective employee, never mind a key member of the management team), or 100% obfuscation of facts abdication of leadership, which does seem to go against everything else they (apparently) stand for.

So I see as take your pick - a) they're incompetent fools, or b) liars. To paraphrase a man - you can't choose to be incompetent 1 day, you either are, or you aren't....

Unless it's the chimp's fault?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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i wonder which answer Walsh got when he asked Peters and Brailsford man-to-man face-to-face who had recommended Leinders to them.

oh wait, he never asked. must have been irrelevant then.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Stephen_M said:
and they had also hired Matty Hayman and Flecha from Robobank, both for their road knowledge/experience. Any normal position in any position of responsibility would have even a basic chat with 2 key guys who'd worked with Leinders beforehand (assuming they weren't actually the ones promoting him within SKY?).

That would only take 2 minutes out of Brailsford's or Steve Peter's day, without the need to consult their 'telephone book' of recruitment policy.

It's either complete incompetence to not do it (as you would with any prospective employee, never mind a key member of the management team), or 100% obfuscation of facts abdication of leadership, which does seem to go against everything else they (apparently) stand for.

So I see as take your pick - a) they're incompetent fools, or b) liars. To paraphrase a man - you can't choose to be incompetent 1 day, you either are, or you aren't....

Unless it's the chimp's fault?
I don't think it's very complicated. Sky wanted a doping doctor with built in UCI protection. Who better than Leinders? He knew all about doping and how to play the system from the inside. With him and Zorzoli on board it was impossible for sky to test positive. Much better than Ferrari or any outside doctor.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Franklin said:
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There's just so much wrong with that considering his position in the team and his later ousting.
De Jongh was Boogerd's number 1 training buddy.
They would go on long training rides together, even when De Jongh wasn't at Rabo anymore.
Even in the (hard-to-believe) case that De Jongh wasn't working with Leinders himself, then no doubt Boogerd briefed him extensively on Leinders' skill set.

Let's take a step back: who recommended De Jongh to Sky/Brailsford?
The guy didn't have a particularly impressive road carreer.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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did not he win about 6 sprints or stages on USPSpresentedbyBerryFloor in 2004 or 2005, in stages/races like Dreidaagse van de Panne, or Dreidaagse de Panne. English translation is Three Days of De Panne. Is not Panne a derivation or dimunitive of Pano et aqua? or whatever language spelling for bread and water. Panne must be a de gogh language derivation of bread.

panne et aqua lol \o/
 
Re:

hrotha said:
I get the impression (and this is mildly funny) that Leinders seems to be small fish. The kind who's there mostly to make sure their riders won't trip any wires, rather than the doping guru type. Not a Del Moral. I mean, if you're going to take the risk of hiring a dodgy doctor, at least get one of the highly-priced ones!

Of course I could be completely wrong about Leinders. Maybe inside the peloton he's seen in a different light. After all, I hadn't heard of Ibarguren until this season.
Well, he was Rasmussen's "prepatore" during his yellow jersey ride at the TdF. He knew/knows how to get riders into second and third higher levels of power. He also seemed to have a special relationship with Zorzoli as Rasmussen has noted in interviews.
 
Re: Re:

DirtyWorks said:
hrotha said:
I get the impression (and this is mildly funny) that Leinders seems to be small fish. The kind who's there mostly to make sure their riders won't trip any wires, rather than the doping guru type. Not a Del Moral. I mean, if you're going to take the risk of hiring a dodgy doctor, at least get one of the highly-priced ones!

Of course I could be completely wrong about Leinders. Maybe inside the peloton he's seen in a different light. After all, I hadn't heard of Ibarguren until this season.
Well, he was Rasmussen's "prepatore" during his yellow jersey ride at the TdF. He knew/knows how to get riders into second and third higher levels of power. He also seemed to have a special relationship with Zorzoli as Rasmussen has noted in interviews.
We are already discussing this elsewhere, and I am not trying to come across as an apologist, but this could also be phrased: "He also seemed to know how to take advantage of Zorzoli."

Dave.
 
Re: Re:

DirtyWorks said:
hrotha said:
I get the impression (and this is mildly funny) that Leinders seems to be small fish. The kind who's there mostly to make sure their riders won't trip any wires, rather than the doping guru type. Not a Del Moral. I mean, if you're going to take the risk of hiring a dodgy doctor, at least get one of the highly-priced ones!

Of course I could be completely wrong about Leinders. Maybe inside the peloton he's seen in a different light. After all, I hadn't heard of Ibarguren until this season.
Well, he was Rasmussen's "prepatore" during his yellow jersey ride at the TdF. He knew/knows how to get riders into second and third higher levels of power. He also seemed to have a special relationship with Zorzoli as Rasmussen has noted in interviews.
Wasn't it Human Plasma that was giving the high end help?

The fact that Zorzoli had to tip him off that all the other teams were throwing some DHEA into the mix suggests a manger of day-to-day doping (& its avoidance) rather than a top end guru like Ferrari to me.
 
Re: Re:

DirtyWorks said:
Well, he was Rasmussen's "prepatore" during his yellow jersey ride at the TdF. He knew/knows how to get riders into second and third higher levels of power. He also seemed to have a special relationship with Zorzoli as Rasmussen has noted in interviews.
Come on, that post is from July 2012. Everything you said only surfaced much later.
 
Re: Re:

D-Queued said:
DirtyWorks said:
hrotha said:
I get the impression (and this is mildly funny) that Leinders seems to be small fish. The kind who's there mostly to make sure their riders won't trip any wires, rather than the doping guru type. Not a Del Moral. I mean, if you're going to take the risk of hiring a dodgy doctor, at least get one of the highly-priced ones!

Of course I could be completely wrong about Leinders. Maybe inside the peloton he's seen in a different light. After all, I hadn't heard of Ibarguren until this season.
Well, he was Rasmussen's "prepatore" during his yellow jersey ride at the TdF. He knew/knows how to get riders into second and third higher levels of power. He also seemed to have a special relationship with Zorzoli as Rasmussen has noted in interviews.
We are already discussing this elsewhere, and I am not trying to come across as an apologist, but this could also be phrased: "He also seemed to know how to take advantage of Zorzoli."

Dave.
Well, then quite a few people were taking advantage of Zorzoli for a very long time.

I don't have any answers either and this is an extremely dark area. If we are to believe the CIRC report, Verbruggen somehow figures into it too. As much as I may have a difference of opinion, it's not based on much beyond my own pessimism about the UCI itself.

Hrotha, I mistakenly posted to this thread and just let it be.
 
Re: Re:

DirtyWorks said:
...

Well, then quite a few people were taking advantage of Zorzoli for a very long time.

I don't have any answers either and this is an extremely dark area. If we are to believe the CIRC report, Verbruggen somehow figures into it too. As much as I may have a difference of opinion, it's not based on much beyond my own pessimism about the UCI itself.

Hrotha, I mistakenly posted to this thread and just let it be.
Yes, and that is the default argument.

Zorzoli could be a reasonably competent human in a 'corrupt' (nod to CIRC with no example of obvious corruption), or easily manipulated, environment. He could also be somewhat less than reasonably competent and not even completely incompetent.

The entire sport has been taken advantage of for a very long time.

And, complicit or not, Zorzoli has managed to keep his job for a long time. That isn't easy in most organizations.

As the fish always rots from the head, and as CIRC has not exonerated Nein and Phat though they may claim such, we do have a pretty clear idea of who is responsible.

One person that appears to have supported Zorzoli, or at least not criticized him, was Sylvia Schenk. Schenk was on the money when she said that McQuaid did not have the credibility to clean up cycling. No kidding. He didn't even have the interest.

On the other hand, she was complementary of the efforts of Zorzoli, and used them as an example of obvious actions not being taken by the UCI.

For example:

"At that time when I was on the UCI management committee from time to time we had reports from Dr. Mario Zorzoli who was in the anti-doping department of UCI. He gave reports on their observations for example regarding the hematocrit limit of 50 and results pointing to riders trying to hit 49.9 but I didn't have individual rider's figures so I don't know who knew what about individual results. ..."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/schenk-doubts-mcquaid-has-the-credibility-to-clean-up-cycling

Rather than focus on Leinders and Zorzoli (to bring this back to the thread topic), it might be more illuminating to understand what degree of favoritism Verbruggen and/or McQuaid were directing towards Rabo.

Dave.
 

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