Geert Leinders

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del1962 said:
Nah, there will always be young up and coming journalists who want to make a name for themselves by exposing something, whether it be sports doping or political corruption, it is getting the evidence that is the difficulty

The belief that there aren't those journalists is a myth
yeah they exist...right up until the meeting with the editor...
 
May 26, 2010
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Ventoux Boar said:
Brailsford has world class luck. His only results of note have come from Wiggins, who arguably arrived fully formed from the track, and spent his year in yellow undermining a team-mate, and Froome. St Christopher arrived with a transformation so unexpected to world class Dave he had to suddenly had to rapidly rustle up a franchise rider contract.

They had one dominant team GT performance, Wiggins' 2012 Tour. Brailsford blew the 2011 Vuelta for Froome, and scuppered both Uran and Henao in the 2013 Giro: both in service of Wiggins.

The sports genius fantasy is sustained by the British press which requires a narrative - especially during those long years between Olympics - and Clinic types desperate to keep their toxic dreams alive.
World class luck? Care to give any other examples of 'world class luck'...

I did not call Brailsford a genius. He has played the game of cycling pretty much like everyone else. A good doping doctor is paramount to win. Dont need to be a genius to figure that out. D'uh! Finding riders that have that 'crazy adaptive physiology' to doping is another fundamental feature of putting together a team, that again is standard rulebook, no genius required. Getting experienced people to assist, another standard for a new team, d'uh.

Brailsford has also the UCI in his pocket, but that again was no genius, it was demonstrated by USPS as a great help, no luck or genius required. Now Cookson running UCI should ensure Sky dont have any positives again hardly genius to get Cooskont o run against the clown McQuaid.

So you misrepresent what i posted. I did not call Cookson a genius. he has made some sound management decisions, had a bit of luck that Wiggins didn't crash in 2012 nor Froome in 2013. Their team goal was to win the TdF within 5 years with a Brit, they won it twice in 4 years. I think he can be satisfied with what he has done. No genius required. But Brailsford aint no dope either.

Now enough of your trolling, name calling and personal attacks.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Ventoux Boar said:
This is typical of the Clinic. When you confront an argument that can't be addressed by one of the 100 or so tropes that pass for 'truth' here, you resort to scurrilous accusations of trollery. You have the maturity and logic skills of a child.
ok, so you're not here to troll, glad we got that stright.
so then why are you here considering your dislike of the place?
 
May 26, 2010
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del1962 said:
Nah, there will always be young up and coming journalists who want to make a name for themselves by exposing something, whether it be sports doping or political corruption, it is getting the evidence that is the difficulty

The beleif that there arent those journalists is a myth
Can you give us some links to young up and coming journalists who are making names for themselves exposing 'something'?
 
May 26, 2010
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Ventoux Boar said:
This is typical of the Clinic. When you confront an argument that can't be addressed by one of the 100 or so tropes that pass for 'truth' here, you resort to scurrilous accusations of trollery. You have the maturity and logic skills of a child.
You are trolling, plain and simple. You troll Digger on twitter now you are doing it here.

You have done little other than insult posters.
 
Dec 13, 2012
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Ventoux Boar said:
I'm discussing Benno's touching faith in Brailsford's innate genius. Wiggins had solid credentials, including at Garmin (ta), and that Dave didn't need to dig too deep into his grocery retail middle-management suitcase of tricks to build a team around him.

Are you suggesting that making Wiggo team leader was an inspired decision?
No I'm stating that his Tour win wasn't formed by his track background as you seem to suggest. His years of track training got him absolutely nowhere as far as GTs are concerned until 2009.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Catwhoorg said:
How about say the French media then ?

Embarrassing Sky and the British establishment as a win-win.
well, i do think such motivations could play a role.

E.g. when Seppelt set out to expose Russian athletics, i wouldn't be surprised to learn that political motives played some role in the background.

But not sure if the ressentiment between France and Britain is that strong.
And for a French journo to go look for dirt on Sky that would still require quite a bit of effort and financial ressources I think.
Just saying, I don't think L'Equipe will decline to publish anything that could blemish Sky, but I don't see them proactively going after a Sky story either.

Meanwhile, British press seems not interested at all (If you can, check some bobbins posts from a week or two back, I think in the general Sky thread. He tried to pass on info to a british journal but they weren't interested)
If you haven't yet, check out this soundcloud:
https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains-it-com/cheating-special-leinders-team-sky-russia-belichick
Noticeable how the two Irish hosts don't buy a word Sky/Braislford are saying, whilst the (allegedly sceptical!) British interviewed journo is all head in the sand.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Ventoux Boar said:
I'm discussing Benno's touching faith in Brailsford's innate genius. Wiggins had solid credentials, including at Garmin (ta), and that Dave didn't need to dig too deep into his grocery retail middle-management suitcase of tricks to build a team around him.

Are you suggesting that making Wiggo team leader was an inspired decision?
what about his results and credentials at Francais des Jeux Gan Cofidis Highroad/Columbia ?

fully formed?

Linda MAc?

lentils pulses and legumes. fully formed.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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del1962 said:
Nah, there will always be young up and coming journalists who want to make a name for themselves by exposing something, whether it be sports doping or political corruption, it is getting the evidence that is the difficulty

The beleif that there arent those journalists is a myth
its actually about the editors and giving the journalists time and space and resources to pursue a story.

the journalists are not the gatekeepers.

the editors are

and FYI, the print and webpublish media, and business model is dead. there are no resources.

otherwise, a decent journo would have taken the blog TennisHasASteroid Problem and blow the doping in that sport wide open sky high. But editors have an eye to their business model, they dont wanna kill the readership of blueblood sports like strawberries and cream. Cycling fits a nice niche. Unless ur British.
 
Benotti69 said:
Can you give us some links to young up and coming journalists who are making names for themselves exposing 'something'?
Well you can look at the French Journal that broke the TUE story.

The problem journos have over the 12 is they have to deal in evidence, not innuendo, and if there is no doping there is no evidence for them to find and if there is doping then they have to find and corroborate the evidence.
 
Dec 13, 2012
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del1962 said:
Well you can look at the French Journal that broke the TUE story.

The problem journos have over the 12 is they have to deal in evidence, not innuendo, and if there is no doping there is no evidence for them to find and if there is doping then they have to find and corroborate the evidence.
Very hard to find actual evidence unless people/teams are very careless.
 
May 26, 2010
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del1962 said:
Well you can look at the French Journal that broke the TUE story.
was that a young journalist?

del1962 said:
The problem journos have over the 12 is they have to deal in evidence, not innuendo, and if there is no doping there is no evidence for them to find and if there is doping then they have to find and corroborate the evidence.
The problem is the law, especially libel and papers not prepared to take the risk of a court case. Journalists might be able to provide 'reasoned evidence' but editors and newpapers lawyers will not take risks.

So young up and coming journalists need to be practically holding the syringe as it goes into an athlete before a media organisation is going to risk a doping story.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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SundayRider said:
Very hard to find actual evidence unless people/teams are very careless.
you can make it impossible to hit the threshold in a urine/blood test, and take the illegal stuff that does not show up. The biggest threat is your supplier being compromised. Or the logistics and doctors and doping support being implicated in some take down. They you get taken down like Fuentes.
 
Dec 13, 2012
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blackcat said:
you can make it impossible to hit the threshold in a urine/blood test, and take the illegal stuff that does not show up. The biggest threat is your supplier being compromised. Or the logistics and doctors and doping support being implicated in some take down. They you get taken down like Fuentes.
Certain tems doctors get implicated and nothing happens ;)
 
Mar 13, 2009
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SundayRider said:
Certain tems doctors get implicated and nothing happens ;)
yeah, technically, it should not be difficult to make sure the evidence is beyond the reaches of authorities, and you are home free.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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Benotti69 said:
World class luck? Care to give any other examples of 'world class luck'...

I did not call Brailsford a genius. He has played the game of cycling pretty much like everyone else. A good doping doctor is paramount to win. Dont need to be a genius to figure that out. D'uh! Finding riders that have that 'crazy adaptive physiology' to doping is another fundamental feature of putting together a team, that again is standard rulebook, no genius required. Getting experienced people to assist, another standard for a new team, d'uh.

Brailsford has also the UCI in his pocket, but that again was no genius, it was demonstrated by USPS as a great help, no luck or genius required. Now Cookson running UCI should ensure Sky dont have any positives again hardly genius to get Cooskont o run against the clown McQuaid.

So you misrepresent what i posted. I did not call Cookson a genius. he has made some sound management decisions, had a bit of luck that Wiggins didn't crash in 2012 nor Froome in 2013. Their team goal was to win the TdF within 5 years with a Brit, they won it twice in 4 years. I think he can be satisfied with what he has done. No genius required. But Brailsford aint no dope either.

Now enough of your trolling, name calling and personal attacks.
No attempt to address my point that Brailsford's record is abysmal absent Wiggins and Froome. And that the latter was a miracle away from being out of contract. Fair enough. Doesn't fit your agenda.

To the bolded, perhaps you'd speak to Froome's performance in 2013, in light of Leinders' dismissal in 2012. If the answer is that Leinders was still available, just not on the books, please explain why he was ever on the books in the first place.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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Benotti69 said:
You are trolling, plain and simple. You troll Digger on twitter now you are doing it here.

You have done little other than insult posters.
What are you talking about? Show me the tweets. Digger had a go at 'outing' my ID a few months ago then backed off when clear he had no idea who I was. Neither do you.

As to my contributions to the forum I'd wager my recent posts have brought a new perspective to matters that, if I may say so, is more entertaining and insightful than your incessant chanting of the Clinic Credo. Try a little original thought. Surprise us.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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blackcat said:
what about his results and credentials at Francais des Jeux Gan Cofidis Highroad/Columbia ?

fully formed?

Linda MAc?

lentils pulses and legumes. fully formed.
Wiggins gave Brailsford the opportunity to build an uphill choo-choo train. Murdoch gave him the cash. The luck was the parcours and the opposition. (Waits for Hitch to hand down some lengthy screed claiming that 2012 was as hard as any tour in history despite absence of climbers and mountains, and inclusion of all-you-can-eat TT kms.) No imagination or 'inside baseball' required.

Wiggins still had to toil for those 18 months (from Jan 2011) hermetically sealed on mythical magic Mt Teide - probably more 'narrative' BS for British press, btw. But the point was about Brailsford's achievements. Scant heavy lifting required for Wiggins. And near meltdown in 2013 when the terrain and opposition was tougher.
 
Ventoux Boar said:
Wiggins still had to toil for those 18 months (from Jan 2011) hermetically sealed on mythical magic Mt Teide - probably more 'narrative' BS for British press, btw. But the point was about Brailsford's achievements. Scant heavy lifting required for Wiggins. And near meltdown in 2013 when the terrain and opposition was tougher.

I'm on a bike 6 hours a day. What are you on?


In the history of competitive cycling, good, not great, track riders have always made grand tour podium contenders. Just take a look at the list of TdF podiums and you'll find dozens of competent track riders that transformed themselves into grand tour winners.

Go ahead. Post that list!
 
Feb 22, 2014
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DirtyWorks said:

I'm on a bike 6 hours a day. What are you on?


In the history of competitive cycling, good, not great, track riders have always made grand tour podium contenders. Just take a look at the list of TdF podiums and you'll find dozens of competent track riders that transformed themselves into grand tour winners.

Go ahead. Post that list!
I'm on serious Benottis: euphoric sensation but a legacy of wafer-thin skin.

There's probably a thread to discuss Wiggins and Sky. This was a discussion about Leinders, that diverged into a bit of a ding-**** about Brailsford's expertise in road cycling. One camp apears to hail him as the second coming of
Macchiavelli. I think he's a chimp with a typewriter.

Where do you stand?

**** is a backwards gnod
 
Oct 16, 2010
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sounds like a deflection by Ventoux Boar.
Brailsford's IQ is not at issue here, or shouldn't be.
the starting point of the discussion was: did Sky's management team (including but not just Brailsford) know or not know that Leinders was a doping doctor when they hired him.

With all their contacts in cycling as well as prior personal experiences with Leinders (De Jongh), it requires a stretch of imagination to assume they didn't know, regardless of how stupid Brailsford is.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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sniper said:
sounds like a deflection by Ventoux Boar.
Brailsford's IQ is not at issue here, or shouldn't be.
the starting point of the discussion was: did Sky's management team (including but not just Brailsford) know or not know that Leinders was a doping doctor when they hired him.

With all their contacts in cycling as well as prior personal experiences with Leinders (De Jongh), it requires a stretch of imagination to assume they didn't know, regardless of how stupid Brailsford is.
With "all their contacts in cycling", top tier funding, and a potent doping program at his disposal, I'm suprised you dismiss Brailsford's achievement, in his 5th season, of leading his team to 9th on WT with a big fat zero GT stage wins. Hiring Leinders 'by mistake' is completely consistent with the notion that Dave is out of his depth and his ZTP denies him expertise and knowledge available to other teams: including which characters are shady.

The emperor has no clothes, and you are so wrapped up in your narrative that you fail to see it.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Ventoux Boar said:
With "all their contacts in cycling", top tier funding, and a potent doping program at his disposal, I'm suprised you dismiss Brailsford's achievement, in his 5th season, of leading his team to 9th on WT with a big fat zero GT stage wins. Hiring Leinders 'by mistake' is completely consistent with the notion that Dave is out of his depth and his ZTP denies him expertise and knowledge available to other teams: including which characters are shady.

The emperor has no clothes, and you are so wrapped up in your narrative that you fail to see it.
i appreciate the attempt to save Sky's reputation by painting their leader as a dumbassed ignorant monkey.
but it's not cutting it.
Again, it's not just about Brailsford. If you want to downplay the hiring of Leinders, you have to portray the whole of Sky's management as completely incompetent.

do shine your light on min. 18:15 to 19:15 of this footage:
https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains-it-com/cheating-special-leinders-team-sky-russia-belichick
you've ignored their comments thus far.
 

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