General Doping Thread.

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Oct 16, 2010
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wrinklyvet said:
...What I thought is what I said and I stand by my original observation.
the big problem with the sport is, has been, and will be, that people in key positions adhere to your view and prefer we look the other way.
 
Mar 14, 2016
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Stop and think about it for 30 seconds: there were certain people on this forum who saw a poor 22-year-old bloke have a cardiac arrest and fall into a coma, and their first thought was to accuse him of doping without any proof whatsoever.

Gutter posts like these are the reason I almost never visit the Clinic.
 
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sniper said:
wrinklyvet said:
...What I thought is what I said and I stand by my original observation.
the big problem with the sport is, has been, and will be, that people in key positions adhere to your view and prefer we look the other way.
Are you declining to answer the query then? What have they said or failed to say about this poor chap's heart attack?
 
May 26, 2010
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wrinklyvet said:
Benotti69 said:
wrinklyvet said:
Benotti69 said:
wrinklyvet said:
Only on the Clinic forum would anyone make the "well dodgy" accusation and an outright doping accusation while the rider lies hospitalised in a coma. I am not sure that is a healthy attitude to have no respect for someone in this condition. You cannot know. There's no need to say everything that comes to mind as a possibility.
The level of personal attack here is high.

When an athlete enters the professional arena it is, IMO, above board to talk about their performances, good, bad or indifferent including doping.

If Myngheer has 'heart problems' then why is he competing in an endurance sport like cycling and why are the team doctors allowing him to compete? Of course, imo, he no more has a heart condition than Sharapova!

I qualified my opinion on his doping, by stating that children are not allowed to play football in Italy without a heart scan and a doctor signing that child off as healthy. Is Belgium a country that allows children to partake in sports with out this? I doubt it.

So many doctors in the sporting arena now, all allegedly looking after the athletes health! If Myngheer has a heart problem why was it not picked up all these years? Someone gonna get sued...or Myngheer was doping.....the culture is to dope.
I attack the post and not the poster. You imply that if kids in Italy are screened before playing football there's nothing wrong with this professional cyclist (presumably because he will have been examined as closely or more so). Your post proceeds to contain a point-blank accusation. It does not follow.
I dont imply it. My child was screened. As an athlete and no doubt competing from a young age Myngheer has been screened more than once and if not, for an endurance sport someone has messed up.....or it is doping.
No, there is a third possibility - that he suffered an unpredictable heart attack. The wonders of modern medicine cannot exclude such a possibility, I am sure. I do not exclude what you are alleging, but I say it is not the only conclusion. That being so, the allegation was not well measured.
"... the allegation was not well measured", really? this is cycling, a sport with a history of a culture to dope and littered with the known history of the doping and those who achieved success as dopers becoming the enablers whether it be team owners, DS's, soigneurs, mechanics, etc etc never mind the testing being a joke and 10 years behind what the latest PEDs are. Never mind the doctors in the sport and needing to be scanned as a child to play sport.
 
May 26, 2010
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CheckMyPecs said:
Stop and think about it for 30 seconds: there were certain people on this forum who saw a poor 22-year-old bloke have a cardiac arrest and fall into a coma, and their first thought was to accuse him of doping without any proof whatsoever.

Gutter posts like these are the reason I almost never visit the Clinic.
Didn't see it. Read it and yep my first thought was poor guy ( but hey attack away), second thought was probably doping as there are so many doctors in the sport, so much testing in sporting science labs and the heart is such an important part of an athlete's anatomy for endurance sport that any heart anomalies would have been detected.

But hey don't let the door hit those pecs on the way out..............
 
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And on that basis Benotti you feel able to say whatever you like by way of accusation about individuals in all circumstances? Do you not think it makes it hard for some people to agree your analysis, such as it is? You use these generalities as the basis to accuse this young Belgian but can't see anything wrong in that at all. So be it.
 
Mar 14, 2016
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Benotti69 said:
Didn't see it. Read it and yep my first thought was poor guy ( but hey attack away), second thought was probably doping as there are so many doctors in the sport, so much testing in sporting science labs and the heart is such an important part of an athlete's anatomy for endurance sport that any heart anomalies would have been detected.
Wrong. Myocarditis as a result of a respiratory infection can wreck your heart in a couple of weeks, and sometimes cardiac arrest is the very first symptom. So unless you're subjecting cyclists to EKGs and echocardiograms every two weeks, there's a real risk anomalies are slipping through the net.

http://www.myocarditisfoundation.org/pdf/MyocarditisAndSuddenDeath.pdf

So your accusations are not only disrespectful, they stink of bro science too.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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hammering on about "accusations", way to miss the point.
the question is not did he dope.
the question is is there a correlation between his doping and the heart attack.
it's a question that needs to be pursued as it can potentially save lifes.
the fact that you find it disrespectful is, with all respect, of secondary importance here.
 
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sniper said:
hammering on about "accusations", way to miss the point.
the question is not did he dope.
the question is is there a correlation between his doping and the heart attack.
I have responded to posts and am not hammering on. Whatever the point may be, there are norms of behaviour that some observe and others don't, which is as clear to me as the nose on my face. Saying he is a doper is not examining that correlation that does certainly exist, but is not the invariable reason for a sportsman's heart attack. Goodbye on this one. if i write any more some people may think I am banging on. :rolleyes:
 
May 26, 2010
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wrinklyvet said:
And on that basis Benotti you feel able to say whatever you like by way of accusation about individuals in all circumstances? Do you not think it makes it hard for some people to agree your analysis, such as it is? You use these generalities as the basis to accuse this young Belgian but can't see anything wrong in that at all. So be it.
This is not a popularity contest. I dont give a fig whether others agree.
 
May 26, 2010
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CheckMyPecs said:
Benotti69 said:
Didn't see it. Read it and yep my first thought was poor guy ( but hey attack away), second thought was probably doping as there are so many doctors in the sport, so much testing in sporting science labs and the heart is such an important part of an athlete's anatomy for endurance sport that any heart anomalies would have been detected.
Wrong. Myocarditis as a result of a respiratory infection can wreck your heart in a couple of weeks, and sometimes cardiac arrest is the very first symptom. So unless you're subjecting cyclists to EKGs and echocardiograms every two weeks, there's a real risk anomalies are slipping through the net.

http://www.myocarditisfoundation.org/pdf/MyocarditisAndSuddenDeath.pdf

So your accusations are not only disrespectful, they stink of bro science too.
When we talk about sport and try to learn from it ( in many ways) it near impossible to get the exact science corret as athletes rarely admit to what they take to enhance their performance. It is only in rare cases that an athlete gives a full comprehensive list of what they take or took. Manzano being one of those.

So quoting athletes suffering (or in worst case scenarios dying from it) from it in figures is not helpful.
 
Mar 14, 2016
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Do you therefore agree that even the best medical science cannot detect every single heart anomaly a cyclist may have or develop at some point?
 
May 14, 2010
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I was reading recently about the introduction of EPO in the peloton. During its first years of use, before they figured it out, young riders were dropping like flies. In the Netherlands alone, according to the article, 20 riders died from EPO experimentation in the first year. The following year, 21 riders died. The next year, 25. And the next year, 21. And the next, 15. For five or six years, in a single, small country, cycling suddenly was a lethal sport.

You'd think during this time someone, some fan, some journalist, some parent, would have said, "Wait a second, what's going on? Why are all these young men dying? Is there some kind of doping going on?" But apparently no one did. Maybe they thought it would be disrespectful, or in poor taste. And so an entire advanced country under rule of law failed its young athletes, and for years they continued to die, and no one was ever held to account.

When you compete in a professional, commercial sport that's known for having a history of drug abuse - and related fatalities - if something goes wrong and you fall critically ill, it stands to reason that drug abuse is the first thing people think of. It's part of the price you pay for participating in such a sport in the first place. The price you pay should not include death, however, so in my view it's good that people point fingers and ask questions.
 
May 26, 2010
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For the record the 1st thing i thought of was, poor guy!

I have witnessed a boy (aged 8-11years) missing school and out training on his bike followed by an adult on a motor scooter.

When some suffer ( and i use the word correctly imo) this type of childhood, i feel empathy for them.
 
Mar 14, 2016
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Maxiton said:
I was reading recently about the introduction of EPO in the peloton. During its first years of use, before they figured it out, young riders were dropping like flies. In the Netherlands alone, according to the article, 20 riders died from EPO experimentation in the first year. The following year, 21 riders died. The next year, 25. And the next year, 21. And the next, 15. For five or six years, in a single, small country, cycling suddenly was a lethal sport.

You'd think during this time someone, some fan, some journalist, some parent, would have said, "Wait a second, what's going on? Why are all these young men dying? Is there some kind of doping going on?" But apparently no one did. Maybe they thought it would be disrespectful, or in poor taste. And so an entire advanced country under rule of law failed its young athletes, and for years they continued to die, and no one was ever held to account.
There's a reasonable middle ground between not asking any questions and throwing around accusations while the person involved is still very sick and/or fighting for his life.
 
May 14, 2010
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CheckMyPecs said:
Maxiton said:
I was reading recently about the introduction of EPO in the peloton. During its first years of use, before they figured it out, young riders were dropping like flies. In the Netherlands alone, according to the article, 20 riders died from EPO experimentation in the first year. The following year, 21 riders died. The next year, 25. And the next year, 21. And the next, 15. For five or six years, in a single, small country, cycling suddenly was a lethal sport.

You'd think during this time someone, some fan, some journalist, some parent, would have said, "Wait a second, what's going on? Why are all these young men dying? Is there some kind of doping going on?" But apparently no one did. Maybe they thought it would be disrespectful, or in poor taste. And so an entire advanced country under rule of law failed its young athletes, and for years they continued to die, and no one was ever held to account.
There's a reasonable middle ground between not asking any questions and throwing around accusations while the person involved is still very sick and/or fighting for his life.
Is there? What difference does it make to him right now what someone says in the Clinic? What is the Clinic all about anyway? What do we discuss here? Is it such a stretch to think that if the umpteenth rider to suffer a cardiac event in recent years gets discussed in the Clinic, the word doping won't be far behind?
 
Mar 14, 2016
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Maxiton said:
Is there? What difference does it make to him right now what someone says in the Clinic? What is the Clinic all about anyway? What do we discuss here? Is it such a stretch to think that if the umpteenth rider to suffer a cardiac event in recent years gets discussed in the Clinic, the word doping won't be far behind?
So respect for a very sick person makes no difference to you?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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CheckMyPecs said:
...
So respect for a very sick person makes no difference to you?
Everybody in here has respect for the guy.
Discussing whether or not his heart attack correlates with doping is not disrespectful to him. Rather, it is showing additional respect for the lives of the rest of the peloton, as the priority is that this doesn't happen again.
Get your priorities straight. Seems as if the history of epo didn't teach you much.
 
Re:

Maxiton said:
I was reading recently about the introduction of EPO in the peloton. During its first years of use, before they figured it out, young riders were dropping like flies. In the Netherlands alone, according to the article, 20 riders died from EPO experimentation in the first year. The following year, 21 riders died. The next year, 25. And the next year, 21. And the next, 15. For five or six years, in a single, small country cycling became a lethal sport.
These figures have been challenged. Merckx index made a thread about it about two years ago.
 
Mar 14, 2016
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sniper said:
CheckMyPecs said:
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So respect for a very sick person makes no difference to you?
Everybody in here has respect for the guy.
Discussing whether or not his heart attack correlates with doping is not disrespectful to him. Rather, it is showing additional respect for the lives of the rest of the peloton, as the priority is that this doesn't happen again.
Get your priorities straight. Seems as if the history of epo didn't teach you much.
Do we, the cycling community. need to have a serious debate about doping and health? Absolutely. Does it have to be hours after some guy has a cardiac arrest? Absolutely not.

Not having the decency to wait for a few days is not concern for the health of riders, it's sensationalism.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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CheckMyPecs said:
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Do we, the cycling community. need to have a serious debate about doping and health? Absolutely.
only now you say that? you should be worried about that debate actually taking place.
yet you prefer to nitpick about the timing of benotti's post.
again, get your priorities straight.
it took over a decade, and many many casualties, before a serious epo debate was on the table.
yet here you are preaching we 'wait another few days'. :rolleyes:
enough of that disingenuous 'decency' already. Time to start saving some lives.
 
Sep 14, 2011
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Funny how nobody wants to debate these issues unless it's to gloat in the aftermath of a sad and tragic event. Reminds me of the time someone here dug up some decade old information to gloat about Jonah Lomu within hours of his death having never shown any inclination to mention those issues in the preceding ten years.
 
Jul 1, 2013
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Don't know if this has been mentioned, but how comes there is a picture of Luca Paolini on the front page of this website ?. Obviously he is last year's Gent winner and its an advert for that. Bit of a *** up if you ask me.
 
If there ever was a legit reason to hire team doctors, it would be protecting riders from their bosses and to an extent themselves in situations when there are pressures to train and race whilst ill. As noted, myocarditis and pericarditis are no picnics, and can develop if basic respitory infections are not treated properly, ie with adequate rest.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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meat puppet said:
If there ever was a legit reason to hire team doctors, it would be protecting riders from their bosses and to an extent themselves in situations when there are pressures to train and race whilst ill. As noted, myocarditis and pericarditis are no picnics, and can develop if basic respitory infections are not treated properly, ie with adequate rest.
but the doctors c/should be team-independent and work in service of a central and UCI-independent testing body. All fairly easy, yet utopia.
 

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