General Doping Thread.

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

This could be the year that sport dies of corruption

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/this-could-be-the-year-that-sport-dies-of-corruption/

A good piece. I agree with the statement;

"people who watch the stuff (sport) are beginning — just beginning — to replace their sense of passionate engagement with a shrugging indifference"

I don't. The professional sport soap opera is the central story in the lives of millions and they have nothing to replace it with.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

WADA declares Spain and Mexico non-compliant with anti-doping code..........

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2016-03/wada-statement-on-compliance-of-watch-list-national-anti-doping-organizations

While the Spanish NADO has been declared non-compliant, WADA recognizes that there is currently no sitting government in the country, and therefore understands the difficulties the country is facing with resolving its outstanding issues at this time.

If Mexico are doping (to do ok in the football and produce a few boxing stars) then what on earth are the other countries doing.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

This could be the year that sport dies of corruption

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/this-could-be-the-year-that-sport-dies-of-corruption/

A good piece. I agree with the statement;

"people who watch the stuff (sport) are beginning — just beginning — to replace their sense of passionate engagement with a shrugging indifference"

I don't. The professional sport soap opera is the central story in the lives of millions and they have nothing to replace it with.

this.

one or two journos or bloggers putting off the blinders and growing a pair of balls is the stuff we like to highlight because it gives us a sense of hope.
but in the end it's small, negligible minority stuff.
drops on a hot plate.
carrying water to the sea.
etc.

 

[arcus]

Sport wont die, and neither will corruption within it......
That said, over the past 10 years, I've noticed a sea-change in public awareness and attitudes to doping and dishonesty in sport. I'm not saying that naivety isn't still very prevalent, but I sense fans are more realistic nowadays, and have a more sophisticated understanding of the issues.
My fear is that ignorance will morph into cynical apathy. The fight for clean sport requires resources and cooperation on a scale that only genuine public indignation will drive. Sports and governments wont drive change unless the public put a proverbial gun to their heads.

 

[Benotti69]

Kittel claims no more systematic doping culture. Sure, but that ended in 1998, then again in 2006, then again in 2008, 2009, 2010 and finally in 2016.

Phew, now we can sit back and watch all these fantastic riders on teams with 4 team doctors and shyt testing and admire how clean the sport is.

 

[doperhopper]

Re:

Kittel claims no more systematic doping culture. Sure, but that ended in 1998, then again in 2006, then again in 2008, 2009, 2010 and finally in 2016.

Phew, now we can sit back and watch all these fantastic riders on teams with 4 team doctors and shyt testing and admire how clean the sport is.

Just for curiousity, how much juice in the peloton still counts as "non-systematic"?

 

[Benotti69]

Blood spinning?

Kittel joins a team with Dr Ibauguren and thinks the sport is now cleans.

We just learned a Sharapova has been taking Meldonium, a PED for 10 years.

How many other PEDs are out there with no test for? EPO there are nearly 100 derivatives and there only tests for a small % of those.

With this knowledge and teams paying up to 4 staff doctors to treat riders, systematic doping is not a thing of the past.

Wiggins let the cat out of the bag in an interview about Sharapova, “The British Cycling team are really on the ball – Richard Freeman, the doctor – in terms of things that have been changed, saying ‘please don’t use this anymore’."

Please Kittel stop insulting the intelligence of fans!

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Blood spinning?

Kittel joins a team with Dr Ibauguren and thinks the sport is now cleans.

We just learned a Sharapova has been taking Meldonium, a PED for 10 years.

How many other PEDs are out there with no test for? EPO there are nearly 100 derivatives and there only tests for a small % of those.

With this knowledge and teams paying up to 4 staff doctors to treat riders, systematic doping is not a thing of the past.

Wiggins let the cat out of the bag in an interview about Sharapova, “The British Cycling team are really on the ball – Richard Freeman, the doctor – in terms of things that have been changed, saying ‘please don’t use this anymore’."

Please Kittel stop insulting the intelligence of fans!

Healing Hans does blood spinning. I think Galea Tiger's preparatore for blood spinning and hgh. I think Rick Crawford Tommy D's coach when he was on the team Saturn, or Mercury in 2003ish when he was coming out of Fort Lewis Durango, was spinning Tommy D's blood

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/12/news/rick-crawford-confesses-to-aiding-doping-riders_262717
rick crawford, pormstar[sic], preparatore, bloodspinner, or cycling coach? my intuiton on the phonetics tells me the former

 

[doperhopper]

What's wrong with Sagan? He clearly needs just a bit of marginal endurance juice magic and will win everything as predicted. Imagine him going to SKY, doing some tests that would reveal that "the engine was always there", it needed just to add fuel. Or, maybe, he's training like in 1975.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

What's wrong with Sagan? He clearly needs just a bit of marginal endurance juice magic and will win everything as predicted. Imagine him going to SKY, doing some tests that would reveal that "the engine was always there", it needed just to add fuel. Or, maybe, he's training like in 1975.

I reckon he is on the CJC and carrying too much muscle. I think he should be 5lbs lighter, not necessarily for going uphill, but to help his punch when he needs to jump on those two up or decimated field sprint finishes where the sprint starts from 45kmph, and you gotta poke your nose in the wind all the way.

you need to accelerate those extra 5lbs to terminal velocity, do the applied physics for those watts requirement. So the extra muscle must compensate pro rata those 5lbs. I think this is a negative economy

 

[python]

...not sure if this is the right thread, but re. the milldronate doping positives avalanche being a conspiracy, i came across the following (more or less reliable) figures... of the about 100 mildronate positives this year (99 the latest wada reference) only 27 are russian nationals (sourced from their sports minister).

the rest is up to everyone's personal view on how to interpret it.

 

[sniper]

Re:

...not sure if this is the right thread, but re. the milldronate doping positives avalanche being a conspiracy, i came across the following (more or less reliable) figures... of the about 100 mildronate positives this year (99 the latest wada reference) only 27 are russian nationals (sourced from their sports minister).

the rest is up to everyone's personal view on how to interpret it.

that's almost a third.
is the rest more or less equally distributed over other nations?

anyway, as you say, probably multiple ways to interpret it.

 

[Benotti69]

someone needs some Meldonium

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/myngheer-suffers-heart-attack-during-criterium-international/

I know in Italy that children cannot join a Football club without having had a heart scan and check up. So this idea that Athletes are competing with heart conditions is well dodgy. No one would sign a person with heart problems. Doping!

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re:

someone needs some Meldonium

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/myngheer-suffers-heart-attack-during-criterium-international/

I know in Italy that children cannot join a Football club without having had a heart scan and check up. So this idea that Athletes are competing with heart conditions is well dodgy. No one would sign a person with heart problems. Doping!

Only on the Clinic forum would anyone make the "well dodgy" accusation and an outright doping accusation while the rider lies hospitalised in a coma. I am not sure that is a healthy attitude to have no respect for someone in this condition. You cannot know. There's no need to say everything that comes to mind as a possibility.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re: Re:

someone needs some Meldonium

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/myngheer-suffers-heart-attack-during-criterium-international/

I know in Italy that children cannot join a Football club without having had a heart scan and check up. So this idea that Athletes are competing with heart conditions is well dodgy. No one would sign a person with heart problems. Doping!

Only on the Clinic forum would anyone make the "well dodgy" accusation and an outright doping accusation while the rider lies hospitalised in a coma. I am not sure that is a healthy attitude to have no respect for someone in this condition. You cannot know. There's no need to say everything that comes to mind as a possibility.

I second that wrinkleyvet.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

someone needs some Meldonium

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/myngheer-suffers-heart-attack-during-criterium-international/

I know in Italy that children cannot join a Football club without having had a heart scan and check up. So this idea that Athletes are competing with heart conditions is well dodgy. No one would sign a person with heart problems. Doping!

Only on the Clinic forum would anyone make the "well dodgy" accusation and an outright doping accusation while the rider lies hospitalised in a coma. I am not sure that is a healthy attitude to have no respect for someone in this condition. You cannot know. There's no need to say everything that comes to mind as a possibility.

I second that wrinkleyvet.

Yes, Benotti69 has no shame! He should have waited until he comes out of the coma, or dies, before calling a spade a spade.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

someone needs some Meldonium

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/myngheer-suffers-heart-attack-during-criterium-international/

I know in Italy that children cannot join a Football club without having had a heart scan and check up. So this idea that Athletes are competing with heart conditions is well dodgy. No one would sign a person with heart problems. Doping!

Only on the Clinic forum would anyone make the "well dodgy" accusation and an outright doping accusation while the rider lies hospitalised in a coma. I am not sure that is a healthy attitude to have no respect for someone in this condition. You cannot know. There's no need to say everything that comes to mind as a possibility.

I second that wrinkleyvet.

Yes, Benotti69 has no shame! He should have waited until he comes out of the coma, or dies, before calling a spade a spade.

Do you think it had never occurred to me that someone would come up with that? I respect many of your posts, but not this one.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Yes, Benotti69 has no shame! He should have waited until he comes out of the coma, or dies, before calling a spade a spade.

this times 10 of course.

what harm is done by speculating/assuming a correlation with doping? none.
In fact, if certain people in key positions would be more skeptic, something might actually be done about it and some lives might be saved.
take the first epo deaths. If the right people had spoken up, something might have been done about it.
Instead, most if not everybody decided to close their eyes and keep the industry going.
We know how that worked out.

"There's no need to say everything that comes to mind as a possibility".
Now thats a polite way of saying "Nothing to see here, move on, enjoy the games". Let's leave that 'politeness' to the British press, shall we.
Even if there's a 1% chance that his heart attack is doping related, that 1% should be pursued. It can save lives.
And in fact there's much more than a 1% chance that it's doping related.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

someone needs some Meldonium

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/myngheer-suffers-heart-attack-during-criterium-international/

I know in Italy that children cannot join a Football club without having had a heart scan and check up. So this idea that Athletes are competing with heart conditions is well dodgy. No one would sign a person with heart problems. Doping!

Only on the Clinic forum would anyone make the "well dodgy" accusation and an outright doping accusation while the rider lies hospitalised in a coma. I am not sure that is a healthy attitude to have no respect for someone in this condition. You cannot know. There's no need to say everything that comes to mind as a possibility.

The level of personal attack here is high.

When an athlete enters the professional arena it is, IMO, above board to talk about their performances, good, bad or indifferent including doping.

If Myngheer has 'heart problems' then why is he competing in an endurance sport like cycling and why are the team doctors allowing him to compete? Of course, imo, he no more has a heart condition than Sharapova!

I qualified my opinion on his doping, by stating that children are not allowed to play football in Italy without a heart scan and a doctor signing that child off as healthy. Is Belgium a country that allows children to partake in sports with out this? I doubt it.

So many doctors in the sporting arena now, all allegedly looking after the athletes health! If Myngheer has a heart problem why was it not picked up all these years? Someone gonna get sued...or Myngheer was doping.....the culture is to dope.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

...
Yes, Benotti69 has no shame! He should have waited until he comes out of the coma, or dies, before calling a spade a spade.

this times 10 of course.

what harm is done by speculating/assuming a correlation with doping? none.
In fact, if certain people in key positions would be more skeptic, something might actually be done about it and some lives might be saved.
take the first epo deaths. If the right people had spoken up, something might have been done about it.
Instead, most if not everybody decided to close their eyes and keep the industry going.
We know how that worked out.

"There's no need to say everything that comes to mind as a possibility".
Now thats a polite way of saying "Nothing to see here, move on, enjoy the games". Let's leave that 'politeness' to the British press, shall we.
Even if there's a 1% chance that his heart attack is doping related, that 1% should be pursued. It can save lives.
And in fact there's much more than a 1% chance that it's doping related.

Some young athletes, cyclists, footballers or whatever who suffer unexpected heart attacks are doping but some are not. Some have undiagnosed conditions, some not. A heart attack may be a pointer. It is insufficient evidence to justify outright accusation. But of course I know my view is old fashioned.

It is a question as to whether that 1% or even 50% or more should be pursued as an outright accusation. Only you can know if that seems right to you. Yes, perhaps others are more 'polite', or more restrained or measured. The question can be raised, but my opinion is that what has been said it is not the right way. I have my opinion and you clearly have yours.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

someone needs some Meldonium

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/myngheer-suffers-heart-attack-during-criterium-international/

I know in Italy that children cannot join a Football club without having had a heart scan and check up. So this idea that Athletes are competing with heart conditions is well dodgy. No one would sign a person with heart problems. Doping!

Only on the Clinic forum would anyone make the "well dodgy" accusation and an outright doping accusation while the rider lies hospitalised in a coma. I am not sure that is a healthy attitude to have no respect for someone in this condition. You cannot know. There's no need to say everything that comes to mind as a possibility.

The level of personal attack here is high.

When an athlete enters the professional arena it is, IMO, above board to talk about their performances, good, bad or indifferent including doping.

If Myngheer has 'heart problems' then why is he competing in an endurance sport like cycling and why are the team doctors allowing him to compete? Of course, imo, he no more has a heart condition than Sharapova!

I qualified my opinion on his doping, by stating that children are not allowed to play football in Italy without a heart scan and a doctor signing that child off as healthy. Is Belgium a country that allows children to partake in sports with out this? I doubt it.

So many doctors in the sporting arena now, all allegedly looking after the athletes health! If Myngheer has a heart problem why was it not picked up all these years? Someone gonna get sued...or Myngheer was doping.....the culture is to dope.

I attack the post and not the poster. You imply that if kids in Italy are screened before playing football there's nothing wrong with this professional cyclist (presumably because he will have been examined as closely or more so). Your post proceeds to contain a point-blank accusation. It does not follow.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

someone needs some Meldonium

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/myngheer-suffers-heart-attack-during-criterium-international/

I know in Italy that children cannot join a Football club without having had a heart scan and check up. So this idea that Athletes are competing with heart conditions is well dodgy. No one would sign a person with heart problems. Doping!

Only on the Clinic forum would anyone make the "well dodgy" accusation and an outright doping accusation while the rider lies hospitalised in a coma. I am not sure that is a healthy attitude to have no respect for someone in this condition. You cannot know. There's no need to say everything that comes to mind as a possibility.

The level of personal attack here is high.

When an athlete enters the professional arena it is, IMO, above board to talk about their performances, good, bad or indifferent including doping.

If Myngheer has 'heart problems' then why is he competing in an endurance sport like cycling and why are the team doctors allowing him to compete? Of course, imo, he no more has a heart condition than Sharapova!

I qualified my opinion on his doping, by stating that children are not allowed to play football in Italy without a heart scan and a doctor signing that child off as healthy. Is Belgium a country that allows children to partake in sports with out this? I doubt it.

So many doctors in the sporting arena now, all allegedly looking after the athletes health! If Myngheer has a heart problem why was it not picked up all these years? Someone gonna get sued...or Myngheer was doping.....the culture is to dope.

I attack the post and not the poster. You imply that if kids in Italy are screened before playing football there's nothing wrong with this professional cyclist (presumably because he will have been examined as closely or more so). Your post proceeds to contain a point-blank accusation. It does not follow.

I dont imply it. My child was screened. As an athlete and no doubt competing from a young age Myngheer has been screened more than once and if not, for an endurance sport someone has messed up.....or it is doping.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

someone needs some Meldonium

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/myngheer-suffers-heart-attack-during-criterium-international/

I know in Italy that children cannot join a Football club without having had a heart scan and check up. So this idea that Athletes are competing with heart conditions is well dodgy. No one would sign a person with heart problems. Doping!

Only on the Clinic forum would anyone make the "well dodgy" accusation and an outright doping accusation while the rider lies hospitalised in a coma. I am not sure that is a healthy attitude to have no respect for someone in this condition. You cannot know. There's no need to say everything that comes to mind as a possibility.

The level of personal attack here is high.

When an athlete enters the professional arena it is, IMO, above board to talk about their performances, good, bad or indifferent including doping.

If Myngheer has 'heart problems' then why is he competing in an endurance sport like cycling and why are the team doctors allowing him to compete? Of course, imo, he no more has a heart condition than Sharapova!

I qualified my opinion on his doping, by stating that children are not allowed to play football in Italy without a heart scan and a doctor signing that child off as healthy. Is Belgium a country that allows children to partake in sports with out this? I doubt it.

So many doctors in the sporting arena now, all allegedly looking after the athletes health! If Myngheer has a heart problem why was it not picked up all these years? Someone gonna get sued...or Myngheer was doping.....the culture is to dope.

I attack the post and not the poster. You imply that if kids in Italy are screened before playing football there's nothing wrong with this professional cyclist (presumably because he will have been examined as closely or more so). Your post proceeds to contain a point-blank accusation. It does not follow.

I dont imply it. My child was screened. As an athlete and no doubt competing from a young age Myngheer has been screened more than once and if not, for an endurance sport someone has messed up.....or it is doping.

No, there is a third possibility - that he suffered an unpredictable heart attack. The wonders of modern medicine cannot exclude such a possibility, I am sure. I do not exclude what you are alleging, but I say it is not the only conclusion. That being so, the allegation was not well measured.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

[...
No, there is a third possibility - that he suffered an unpredictable heart attack. The wonders of modern medicine cannot exclude such a possibility, I am sure. I do not exclude what you are alleging, but I say it is not the only conclusion. That being so, the allegation was not well measured.

so you worry about the fact that benotti doesn't contemplate the 3rd option, but you don't worry about the fact that the British press and Cookson and WADA fail to contemplate the 1st and 2nd options (which, objectively, are more likely to apply)?
Got it.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

[...
No, there is a third possibility - that he suffered an unpredictable heart attack. The wonders of modern medicine cannot exclude such a possibility, I am sure. I do not exclude what you are alleging, but I say it is not the only conclusion. That being so, the allegation was not well measured.

so you worry about the fact that benotti doesn't contemplate the 3rd option, but you don't worry about the fact that the British press and Cookson and WADA fail to contemplate the 1st and 2nd options (which, objectively, are more likely to apply)?
Got it.

Have the British press, WADA and Cookson expressed any view on this matter? What did they say, or fail to say, that was capable of being said in the world out there?

Actually that was not my concern, as you know. What I thought is what I said and I stand by my original observation. Moving the goalposts does not change that. You will continue with your perception and Benotti with his.