General Doping Thread.

[Libertine Seguros]

Well, that's disappointing. Certainly she had been above her usual career level this season, but she'd already improved her level last year, and obviously Parkhotel are a better organised team than Doltcini-Van Eyck or Lares in terms of their road calendar even before you take into account the most recent iteration of Parkhotel meaning she'd probably get a decent amount of freedom now that Lorena Wiebes and Demi Vollering are marked women, plus because of the lesser funding and support as well as late-starters and converts from other sports, especially with athletes on the smaller and mid-sized women's teams rather than those on, say, Boels, Trek, Mitchelton or Sunweb, late developers are not always as immediately suspicious than in men's cycling as often it's a matter of getting onto a more professional set-up, finishing studies, switching sports or just getting a better race calendar. Sofie had already been pretty decent back in 2011 in her first run with Lotto, as well as again around 2013-14 kind of time, so I didn't start sounding the alarms at all for her to be honest.

 

[PeterB]

Well, that's disappointing. Certainly she had been above her usual career level this season, but she'd already improved her level last year, and obviously Parkhotel are a better organised team than Doltcini-Van Eyck or Lares in terms of their road calendar even before you take into account the most recent iteration of Parkhotel meaning she'd probably get a decent amount of freedom now that Lorena Wiebes and Demi Vollering are marked women, plus because of the lesser funding and support as well as late-starters and converts from other sports, especially with athletes on the smaller and mid-sized women's teams rather than those on, say, Boels, Trek, Mitchelton or Sunweb, late developers are not always as immediately suspicious than in men's cycling as often it's a matter of getting onto a more professional set-up, finishing studies, switching sports or just getting a better race calendar. Sofie had already been pretty decent back in 2011 in her first run with Lotto, as well as again around 2013-14 kind of time, so I didn't start sounding the alarms at all for her to be honest.

Off-topic remark, but can't resist - the post above consists of just 3 sentences and especially the middle one is a sight to behold...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Some people have subordinate clauses. I subordinate clause to other clauses until I have a full caste system.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Well, that's disappointing. Certainly she had been above her usual career level this season, but she'd already improved her level last year, and obviously Parkhotel are a better organised team than Doltcini-Van Eyck or Lares in terms of their road calendar even before you take into account the most recent iteration of Parkhotel meaning she'd probably get a decent amount of freedom now that Lorena Wiebes and Demi Vollering are marked women, plus because of the lesser funding and support as well as late-starters and converts from other sports, especially with athletes on the smaller and mid-sized women's teams rather than those on, say, Boels, Trek, Mitchelton or Sunweb, late developers are not always as immediately suspicious than in men's cycling as often it's a matter of getting onto a more professional set-up, finishing studies, switching sports or just getting a better race calendar. Sofie had already been pretty decent back in 2011 in her first run with Lotto, as well as again around 2013-14 kind of time, so I didn't start sounding the alarms at all for her to be honest.

Not the biggest follower of women's cycling (do watch a lot of cyclocross) but i didn't really expect here to be a likely candidate either. Well, i'll reserve final judgement for now, but... well, not a lot of cases turn out to be false positives either.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Week before the WCRR is a pretty good time to be charging up.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Week before the WCRR is a pretty good time to be charging up.

Or chowing down on supplements...

 

[samhocking]

Or chowing down on supplements...

If she blames it on supplements, you can bet it won't be a certified one on any NSF, Informed Sport or BSCG lists. They never are!

 

[Singularitarian]

well, New Clean Era - and here we go with quite recent stuff, 2016/17/18...

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uc...7-in-light-of-operation-aderlass-information/

any predictions for surprise names?

 

[RedheadDane]

If she blames it on supplements, you can bet it won't be a certified one on any NSF, Informed Sport or BSCG lists. They never are!

Isn't that how it usually is with those cases? The athlete in question is jut too. damn. stupid!
Honestly, I didn't even know there was any lists, but even if there really wasn't just... check the list of ingredients, for ***'s sake! You'd think a professional athlete would know to do that…

 

[MartinGT]

well, New Clean Era - and here we go with quite recent stuff, 2016/17/18...

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uc...7-in-light-of-operation-aderlass-information/

any predictions for surprise names?

All small fish if anyone is caught

 

[samhocking]

Isn't that how it usually is with those cases? The athlete in question is jut too. damn. stupid!
Honestly, I didn't even know there was any lists, but even if there really wasn't just... check the list of ingredients, for ***'s sake! You'd think a professional athlete would know to do that…

The teams and athletes will be well aware there are lists of certified supplements. UKAD for example are continually warning athletes the risk using supplements not certified with Informed Sport. 44% of UKAD ADRVs are blamed on supplements not certified by Informed Sport for example.

 

[red_flanders]

MLB does - last year a player for the White Sox tested positive for EPO and was suspended for 80 games (basically half the season). It is the first reported positive test by an MLB player for EPO. Strangely enough he plays catcher. Major League Baseball player suspended for 80 games after taking EPO Dominican Republic’s Welington Castillo has been given an 80-game suspension by Major League Baseball (MLB) after testing positive for erythropoietin... www.insidethegames.biz

Why is it strange he plays catcher? while baseball isn’t exactly a grueling game, it’s the hardest position by a landslide. I’m a bit surprised anyone in baseball bothers with EPO, so anyone using it is a bit surprising, but catcher is tiring as hell.

 

[Merckx index]

Why is it strange he plays catcher? while baseball isn’t exactly a grueling game, it’s the hardest position by a landslide. I’m a bit surprised anyone in baseball bothers with EPO, so anyone using it is a bit surprising, but catcher is tiring as hell.

The kind of "tiring" a catcher experiences is not the kind that's alleviated by EPO. With infrequent interludes, a catcher is confined to a very small physical space. Though squatting is very uncomfortable, it should reduce heart rate relative to standing, as there is less flow against gravity. As a bonus, the catcher is closest to the dugout, which means less walking between innings. A catcher will get some exercise when he reaches base as a hitter, but most catchers aren't good hitters or baserunners, so will reach base less often, and be less expected to steal or advance an extra base.

There isn't any position on the field less in need of EPO than catcher. The evidence I've seen is that a pitcher is the hardest position to play in terms of oxygen consumption:

In-Game Heart Rate Responses Among Professional Baseball Starting Pitchers - PubMed

Cornell, DJ, Paxson, JL, Caplinger, RA, Seligman, JR, Davis, NA, Flees, RJ, and Ebersole, KT. In-game heart rate responses among professional baseball starting pitchers. J Strength Cond Res 31(1): 24-29, 2017-The purpose of the current study was to characterize the in-game heart rate (HR)...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is quite surprising to me. They report that pitchers's average heart rate was 85% of max (160-170 bpm I'd guess) during the entire portion of an inning that they were on the mound (though they cite other studies that found much lower rates, around 125-150). Pitching appears to be mostly anaerobic, but some teams apparently monitor the V02max of their pitchers, and aim for them to have some minimum value, so that they can go deep into games without as much fatigue. IOW, they would recover faster from the anaerobic effort between innings.

 

[GVFTA]

The kind of "tiring" a catcher experiences is not the kind that's alleviated by EPO. With infrequent interludes, a catcher is confined to a very small physical space. Though squatting is very uncomfortable, it should reduce heart rate relative to standing, as there is less flow against gravity. As a bonus, the catcher is closest to the dugout, which means less walking between innings. A catcher will get some exercise when he reaches base as a hitter, but most catchers aren't good hitters or baserunners, so will reach base less often, and be less expected to steal or advance an extra base.

??? That makes no sense

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think the suggestion is that while the position of catcher can be tiring, it's not the kind of long-form physical activity that saps endurance in the manner most associated with EPO, but rather a matter of repetitious movement and high levels of concentration with short bursts of intensity. EPO is associated with endurance sports, and somebody like, say, Bengie Molina does not really fit the archetype of the endurance athlete.

 

[GVFTA]

I think the suggestion is that while the position of catcher can be tiring, it's not the kind of long-form physical activity that saps endurance in the manner most associated with EPO, but rather a matter of repetitious movement and high levels of concentration with short bursts of intensity. EPO is associated with endurance sports, and somebody like, say, Bengie Molina does not really fit the archetype of the endurance athlete.

Yeah, I'm stupid! Next time I'm exhausted, I'll just squat up and down for an hour to recover since as MI stated, that's what happens.

 

[GVFTA]

I think the suggestion is that while the position of catcher can be tiring, it's not the kind of long-form physical activity that saps endurance in the manner most associated with EPO, but rather a matter of repetitious movement and high levels of concentration with short bursts of intensity. EPO is associated with endurance sports, and somebody like, say, Bengie Molina does not really fit the archetype of the endurance athlete.

Yeah, the bolded in no way describes an endurance activity.

 

[red_flanders]

The kind of "tiring" a catcher experiences is not the kind that's alleviated by EPO. With infrequent interludes, a catcher is confined to a very small physical space. Though squatting is very uncomfortable, it should reduce heart rate relative to standing, as there is less flow against gravity. As a bonus, the catcher is closest to the dugout, which means less walking between innings. A catcher will get some exercise when he reaches base as a hitter, but most catchers aren't good hitters or baserunners, so will reach base less often, and be less expected to steal or advance an extra base.

There isn't any position on the field less in need of EPO than catcher. The evidence I've seen is that a pitcher is the hardest position to play in terms of oxygen consumption:

In-Game Heart Rate Responses Among Professional Baseball Starting Pitchers - PubMed

Cornell, DJ, Paxson, JL, Caplinger, RA, Seligman, JR, Davis, NA, Flees, RJ, and Ebersole, KT. In-game heart rate responses among professional baseball starting pitchers. J Strength Cond Res 31(1): 24-29, 2017-The purpose of the current study was to characterize the in-game heart rate (HR)...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is quite surprising to me. They report that pitchers's average heart rate was 85% of max (160-170 bpm I'd guess) during the entire portion of an inning that they were on the mound (though they cite other studies that found much lower rates, around 125-150). Pitching appears to be mostly anaerobic, but some teams apparently monitor the V02max of their pitchers, and aim for them to have some minimum value, so that they can go deep into games without as much fatigue. IOW, they would recover faster from the anaerobic effort between innings.

You have to factor in that pitchers only play once every 4 games and then only for limited innings, but yes, during that very limited time they expend more effort per inning than anyone. In the American league they do not hit, and in the NL they often have pinch hitters and runners. Catchers, by contrast, throw the ball on every pitch of every game, bat multiple times in every game, run bases, make throws to first and second to stop runners, make plays at the plate, etc. Their proximity to the dugout to jog/stroll back isn't remotely a factor in exertion. It's by far the most tiring position. I played both for years and can assure you that squatting with all that gear on and having to spring up every pitch to throw the ball back is not a relief or less flow against gravity. Quite the opposite, it gets really tiring after 9 innings, 20+ times an inning. They are also the ones making all the defensive calls and coaching the pitcher on what to throw on every pitch. It's mentally taxing to a degree as well, and while not a huge deal, compounds the difficulty of playing the position. They're the coach on the field.

But I agree it's really weird that anyone in baseball, even catchers, would benefit from EPO, which is why I said, "I’m a bit surprised anyone in baseball bothers with EPO..."

 

[GVFTA]

Why would anyone who plays baseball take epo? Do baseball players workout other than on the baseball field. Of course! Anyone who exercises to muscle exhaustion, be it running or high rep weight training etc can benefit from epo use. To question why athletes from " non traditional endurance sports" may use epo is pretty naive. The recovery benefits alone are huge for people who spend multiple hours a week exercising.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yeah, the bolded in no way describes an endurance activity.

Well, it's not like it's four hours of continuous activity is it? There's innings breaks and all that. I'd have thought maybe the case for a catcher would be more for things like beta blockers, personally, for the concentration. Unless you want to claim a hockey goaltender is an endurance sport position. They have to spend a lot of time in an even more unnatural position, and don't get the breaks that a catcher does when the other team is in the field as well as invariably leading the team in TOI because they only get pulled if the team's risking an empty netter or they're doing so badly they get withdrawn as a mercy killing.

I'm not claiming that EPO has no benefits. EPO can benefit 100m runners too, but that's not what they get popped for, because the kind of benefit they need is better served by other things. I really don't see EPO as being a baseball drug. There are plenty of non-traditional endurance sports where EPO is of huge benefit. The constant-effort sports like soccer, rugby, water polo and tennis spring to mind immediately. Ice hockey rather falls in the middle because of the constant line changes. I just don't really see baseball as being one of them.

 

[GVFTA]

To beat a dead horse, exercising muscles to exhaustion requires recovery. EPO aids muscle recovery. Show me a study that says otherwise.

 

[GVFTA]

The argument that a couple of you are making in regards to baseball players is only remotely valid if you assume that baseball players don't work out off of the field in order to maximize their on field abilities. If you do assume that you are wrong. The same can be said of nearly every sport.

 

[red_flanders]

To beat a dead horse, exercising muscles to exhaustion requires recovery. EPO aids muscle recovery. Show me a study that says otherwise.

I think we all understand and point well taken. I think folks are just saying that there are dozens of other ways to accomplish the same, and typically other substances have been used in sports like baseball. EPO isn't the first thing one would think of. May have to do with the particulars of the testing regime in baseball, maybe something else. It's interesting is all.

 

[GVFTA]

I think we all understand and point well taken. I think folks are just saying that there are dozens of other ways to accomplish the same, and typically other substances have been used in sports like baseball. EPO isn't the first thing one would think of. May have to do with the particulars of the testing regime in baseball, maybe something else. It's interesting is all.

I guess we would all be naive to put anything past any professional athlete in any sport. The last thing I thought a cyclist would test positive for is strychnine, but a former teammate of mine did just that while he was racing for Jelly Belly!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Vandeweghe: "Zaak-De Vuyst is heel complex, onschuld bewijzen zal geld kosten" | sporza

De hemel viel vorige week op het hoofd van Sofie De Vuyst. De Belgische toprenster kreeg het bericht dat ze positief testte op exogene steroïden. Ze schreeuwt haar onschuld uit. In De Tribune noemt sportjournalist Hans Vandeweghe haar zaak uiterst complex: "Wat er tot nu toe allemaal in de media...

sporza.be

Apparently the case of Sofie De Vuyst is very complex, says Hans Vandewehge, who is somewhat of an authority on the subject. Things that have been released in the press, are not correct. But proving her innocence will cost a lot of money and given her age (32), he wonders if she won't just retire.

Too bad he doesn't specify what is so complex about here case, just that he has never seen a case like this.