I agree with Eshnar, the lack of TTs in last year's Tour made it closer for longer but also less agressive. Quintana would've had to attack more in order to win, instead of going for it on the last climb of the last stage. Similarly, the 2012 Tour was the opposite. Too many long time trials and not enough high mountains. Compounded with a dominant team it was very boring.
- Feb 18, 2015
- 13,655
- 9,431
- 28,180
Re:
Although I generally agree it the lack of ITT's in the tour last year wasnt really a problem because the crosswind stage gave us the exact situation we would have had in a TT with Quintana loosing 2 minutes to Froome. I actually think another 50k TT (although I usually like something like that in GT's) would have made it worse because Froome's advantage after LPSM would have been too big.Brullnux said:
viewtopic.php?p=1631031#p1631031yaco said:
- Feb 20, 2010
- 32,514
- 14,301
- 28,180
When tiny mountain goats historically won GTs, it was because they achieved something incredible in the mountains because they were truly special climbers - think José Manuel Fuente, Federico Bahamontes, Luís Alberto Herrera, Charly Gaul, Lucien van Impe. GTs have always been won and lost in the mountains? Tell that to José María Jiménez, who lost 13 minutes across the two TTs of the 1999 Vuelta and was under 10 mins down on Jan Ullrich overall. Or Lucho Herrera, whose sole Vuelta win is a pretty small consolation prize considering the amount of time he used to lose in the 200km of TT or so in the Hinault era. The GTs may have always been won and lost in the mountains, but the rest of the course decided who was playing for the win in them.
Personally, I'm not ready to anoint Nairo Quintana a greater climber than Lucho Herrera just yet, but Nairito has already eclipsed his national cycling icon's palmarès. But what we have to recognize is that some of the great exploits of those climbers was caused by the unfavourable parcours. If you don't give the climbers reasons to have deficits, there is no reason for them to take the risks in the mountains. José Manuel Fuente's incredible day-after-day solo escapades in the mountains of the 1974 Giro were the result of him having lost several minutes into Sanremo after miscalculating and not eating enough in a hilly stage. If he hadn't lost that time and held all the cards on Merckx in the mountains, he'd have sat in the bunch and followed wheels and the race would have been infinitely worse. Epic solos like Chiapucci in Sestrières would not have been necessary in the slightest if there hadn't been long time trials, because he would only have needed a few seconds over Indurain rather than several minutes. It can be seen in the "Purito template", the sprint for the seconds at the top of the mountain; it's progressively rarer that we see riders even going from the base like Sastre did in 2008 now, let alone the "several mountains from home" escapades. A situation like the Giro 2010 where the climbers were given a big deficit without that kind of time trial mileage, is a freak occurrence (and nevertheless they included tougher rouleur challenges to balance the parcours another way, by introducing the epic sterrato stage) and can't be relied upon.
A GT should have two TTs of reasonable length. They can be two long ones, a longer and a shorter one, or so on, but there has to be sufficient cause for the one-dimensional climbers to lose time that they are close enough in the GC to feel like they have a chance if they take risks, but not close enough that they don't need to take risks to do so. Look at the Cercedilla stage in the Vuelta - Aru had to pressure Dumoulin from afar because the stage was easy enough that if they didn't attack at that point the climbing was easy enough; the muscular time trial specialist who could climb enough to get by was fighting the lightweight grimpeur who can TT just enough to get by. They made no use of Jito d'Escarandí, a legit ESP climb with comparable stats to Fedaia, until the last 2km; but on something that's really little more than a medium mountain stage (the Sierra de Madrid climbs are often over-categorized) the climber's hand was forced, but only because there was no tomorrow to wait for anymore. The likes of Contador, Froome and Nibali are all-round enough that they would be fine on a more balanced parcours and still competing for the win on the climbs anyway; they just might have more trouble controlling the likes of Quintana that way, and Nairito might not be able to rely on his patented "do a long one in week 3 and stake everything on that one stage" technique either.
An MTT should be an occasional treat. It's a great thing for a warmup race in fairness, but I think it has two main uses - one is in circumstances where logistics dictate a road stage is more difficult to organize (e.g. Kronplatz) and the other is where the climb is of a nature where it maybe would struggle to produce the same kind of time gaps it will in an ITT if they did it in a road stage. Think of the several Sierra Nevada TTs the Vuelta has had; the "traditional" version on the A-395 is long but its gradient is fairly consistent and gradual; nowadays it would be difficult to get away from the trains on until very late on, whereas in a chrono there will be definite gaps. Nevegal is a similar one where the climb isn't especially threatening and the time gaps of the TT are probably more than there would have been in a road stage climbing it. The exception is the Passo di Fedaia, because an MTT there would mean several hours' straight coverage live from the Passo di Fedaia, and it doesn't get better than that.
The other factor that has come from the increasing tailoring of the GTs towards the grimpeurs is that it has greatly devalued the GPM (although admittedly to a great extent Richard Virenque is to blame as well). The best climbers don't target it because unlike in the days of Herrera, they have no reason to think they shouldn't be contending for the win and they aren't eliminated from contention in the rouleur part of the race; the classification has as a result become a breakaway's plaything, except in the Tour where they've revamped the classification which is now massively biased in favour of HC climbs and MTFs and as a result has become a consolation prize that GC competitors can pick up as a consolation prize; Froome even won it almost accidentally last year.
I want to see the great climbers duelling as much as anybody. I'm known as a huge grimpeur fetishist and almost all my favourite historical riders were pure climbers. But as much as I want to see them fighting for the win, I also want to see the true battle that is one man against the mountains, which is part of the romance of the sport. And we aren't going to see that on courses where even the most one-dimensional climber need not waste any energy until the last 5km.
Personally, I'm not ready to anoint Nairo Quintana a greater climber than Lucho Herrera just yet, but Nairito has already eclipsed his national cycling icon's palmarès. But what we have to recognize is that some of the great exploits of those climbers was caused by the unfavourable parcours. If you don't give the climbers reasons to have deficits, there is no reason for them to take the risks in the mountains. José Manuel Fuente's incredible day-after-day solo escapades in the mountains of the 1974 Giro were the result of him having lost several minutes into Sanremo after miscalculating and not eating enough in a hilly stage. If he hadn't lost that time and held all the cards on Merckx in the mountains, he'd have sat in the bunch and followed wheels and the race would have been infinitely worse. Epic solos like Chiapucci in Sestrières would not have been necessary in the slightest if there hadn't been long time trials, because he would only have needed a few seconds over Indurain rather than several minutes. It can be seen in the "Purito template", the sprint for the seconds at the top of the mountain; it's progressively rarer that we see riders even going from the base like Sastre did in 2008 now, let alone the "several mountains from home" escapades. A situation like the Giro 2010 where the climbers were given a big deficit without that kind of time trial mileage, is a freak occurrence (and nevertheless they included tougher rouleur challenges to balance the parcours another way, by introducing the epic sterrato stage) and can't be relied upon.
A GT should have two TTs of reasonable length. They can be two long ones, a longer and a shorter one, or so on, but there has to be sufficient cause for the one-dimensional climbers to lose time that they are close enough in the GC to feel like they have a chance if they take risks, but not close enough that they don't need to take risks to do so. Look at the Cercedilla stage in the Vuelta - Aru had to pressure Dumoulin from afar because the stage was easy enough that if they didn't attack at that point the climbing was easy enough; the muscular time trial specialist who could climb enough to get by was fighting the lightweight grimpeur who can TT just enough to get by. They made no use of Jito d'Escarandí, a legit ESP climb with comparable stats to Fedaia, until the last 2km; but on something that's really little more than a medium mountain stage (the Sierra de Madrid climbs are often over-categorized) the climber's hand was forced, but only because there was no tomorrow to wait for anymore. The likes of Contador, Froome and Nibali are all-round enough that they would be fine on a more balanced parcours and still competing for the win on the climbs anyway; they just might have more trouble controlling the likes of Quintana that way, and Nairito might not be able to rely on his patented "do a long one in week 3 and stake everything on that one stage" technique either.
An MTT should be an occasional treat. It's a great thing for a warmup race in fairness, but I think it has two main uses - one is in circumstances where logistics dictate a road stage is more difficult to organize (e.g. Kronplatz) and the other is where the climb is of a nature where it maybe would struggle to produce the same kind of time gaps it will in an ITT if they did it in a road stage. Think of the several Sierra Nevada TTs the Vuelta has had; the "traditional" version on the A-395 is long but its gradient is fairly consistent and gradual; nowadays it would be difficult to get away from the trains on until very late on, whereas in a chrono there will be definite gaps. Nevegal is a similar one where the climb isn't especially threatening and the time gaps of the TT are probably more than there would have been in a road stage climbing it. The exception is the Passo di Fedaia, because an MTT there would mean several hours' straight coverage live from the Passo di Fedaia, and it doesn't get better than that.
The other factor that has come from the increasing tailoring of the GTs towards the grimpeurs is that it has greatly devalued the GPM (although admittedly to a great extent Richard Virenque is to blame as well). The best climbers don't target it because unlike in the days of Herrera, they have no reason to think they shouldn't be contending for the win and they aren't eliminated from contention in the rouleur part of the race; the classification has as a result become a breakaway's plaything, except in the Tour where they've revamped the classification which is now massively biased in favour of HC climbs and MTFs and as a result has become a consolation prize that GC competitors can pick up as a consolation prize; Froome even won it almost accidentally last year.
I want to see the great climbers duelling as much as anybody. I'm known as a huge grimpeur fetishist and almost all my favourite historical riders were pure climbers. But as much as I want to see them fighting for the win, I also want to see the true battle that is one man against the mountains, which is part of the romance of the sport. And we aren't going to see that on courses where even the most one-dimensional climber need not waste any energy until the last 5km.
- May 9, 2014
- 5,229
- 107
- 17,680
Re: Re:
Honestly, such a good post Eshnar. Totally agree with it, especially the bit about ending some stages with an easy climb and a hard climb 30km from the finish
Eshnar said:Lol, forgot about that one.Gigs_98 said:
Back in the days when I was still willing to write a freakishly long post about the issue.
Honestly, such a good post Eshnar. Totally agree with it, especially the bit about ending some stages with an easy climb and a hard climb 30km from the finish
- May 27, 2014
- 2,432
- 86
- 11,580
Might be an April Fools joke, but Polish news has just shown a route for Tour de Pologne. No mountains, but it has 312km (acquired special permission from UCI) stage and average stage length is roughly 250km.....
Oh, and 48km TT at the end.
edit: most likely it was a joke. Doesn't match some of the other rumours present
Oh, and 48km TT at the end.
edit: most likely it was a joke. Doesn't match some of the other rumours present
- Sep 8, 2009
- 15,306
- 3
- 22,485
- Aug 3, 2015
- 22,060
- 9,534
- 28,180
Re: Re:
Thats actually a great point, I haven't thought of it that way. So in this instance, Quintana simply didn't have the cojones to stand up to Valverde OR wasn't confident enough to beat Froome from the foot of La Touissuire. Who knows. What's certain that if he had been in a 2-3 min deficit more from a long ITT, that would effectively have been 5-6 minutes and game over. 1 stage into the Pyrenees. Ugh..
Anyways, I agree with the premise of balancing everything out. I have read enough loooooooong posts from Libertine to know that and it makes sense. But just as MTF's has become a fetish, I think the hard-easy climb concept only works if the circumstances allows it. It can also end out more dull than a passively raced 1 MTF-stage. I like the thought, it's super romantic and we see it when the route allows it (sometimes), especially on Mortirolo, and its without a doubt the best cycling you will get to see. But, there is nothing wrong with an old fashioned Hors Categorie MTF either. I think that should be balanced out as well, although I mostly agree with the concepts of more ITT, longer stages and the hard climb/lesser climb-balance or whatever you want to call it.
However, I don't really care one bit for balance in Suisse and Dauphine. I want the climbers to showcase what they have got before the Tour, the more madness, the merrier. Suisse is a good example (please Nairo, ride) and I love the ITT in Dauphine. The last 2 stages of Dauphine are actually also really good designed imo.
Trentino should be a super watch. A few of the Giro protagonists, good stages and TV. Lets go.
Whoops, quote fcked up. Help...
Although I generally agree it the lack of ITT's in the tour last year wasnt really a problem because the crosswind stage gave us the exact situation we would have had in a TT with Quintana loosing 2 minutes to Froome. I actually think another 50k TT (although I usually like something like that in GT's) would have made it worse because Froome's advantage after LPSM would have been too big.Gigs_98 said:
Thats actually a great point, I haven't thought of it that way. So in this instance, Quintana simply didn't have the cojones to stand up to Valverde OR wasn't confident enough to beat Froome from the foot of La Touissuire. Who knows. What's certain that if he had been in a 2-3 min deficit more from a long ITT, that would effectively have been 5-6 minutes and game over. 1 stage into the Pyrenees. Ugh..
Anyways, I agree with the premise of balancing everything out. I have read enough loooooooong posts from Libertine to know that and it makes sense. But just as MTF's has become a fetish, I think the hard-easy climb concept only works if the circumstances allows it. It can also end out more dull than a passively raced 1 MTF-stage. I like the thought, it's super romantic and we see it when the route allows it (sometimes), especially on Mortirolo, and its without a doubt the best cycling you will get to see. But, there is nothing wrong with an old fashioned Hors Categorie MTF either. I think that should be balanced out as well, although I mostly agree with the concepts of more ITT, longer stages and the hard climb/lesser climb-balance or whatever you want to call it.
However, I don't really care one bit for balance in Suisse and Dauphine. I want the climbers to showcase what they have got before the Tour, the more madness, the merrier. Suisse is a good example (please Nairo, ride) and I love the ITT in Dauphine. The last 2 stages of Dauphine are actually also really good designed imo.
Trentino should be a super watch. A few of the Giro protagonists, good stages and TV. Lets go.
Whoops, quote fcked up. Help...
- May 27, 2014
- 2,432
- 86
- 11,580
Re:
Unfortunately, as expected, it was an April's fools joke. I guess 6 stages totaling roughly 1500km would be too much to ask
Instead we have this route. Pretty usual for Tour de Pologne
Stage 1:
http://tourdepologne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/etapy/mapy/etap1-5.jpg
Stage 2:
[img]http://tourdepologne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/etapy/mapy/etap2-5.jpg
Stage 3:
[img]http://tourdepologne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/etapy/mapy/etap3-5.jpg
Stage 4:
[img]http://tourdepologne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/etapy/mapy/etap4-5.jpg
Stage 5:
[img]http://tourdepologne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/etapy/mapy/etap5-5.jpg
Stage 6:
[img]http://tourdepologne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/etapy/mapy/etap6-5.jpg
Stage 7:
[img]http://tourdepologne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/etapy/mapy/etap7-5.jpg
Very typical route for TdP. Mostly to reward towns that have shown support to the race and that bring fans on the route.
What I am really excited about though is Women's TdP.
First edition will only have 3 stages, including two on the second day but the ambitions are really high. Winner gets a car, and there is also plan to increase number of stages in the future and make it the biggest women's stage race in the world.
Women's route will be really mountainous. Two 50km loops in Zakopane with 6 climbs, and the next day two loops around Bukowina (also 6 climbs), followed by 4km time trial. No profiles yet.
Damn it, can't get pictures to the right size
jens_attacks said:
Unfortunately, as expected, it was an April's fools joke. I guess 6 stages totaling roughly 1500km would be too much to ask
Instead we have this route. Pretty usual for Tour de Pologne
Stage 1:
http://tourdepologne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/etapy/mapy/etap1-5.jpg
Stage 2:
[img]http://tourdepologne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/etapy/mapy/etap2-5.jpg
Stage 3:
[img]http://tourdepologne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/etapy/mapy/etap3-5.jpg
Stage 4:
[img]http://tourdepologne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/etapy/mapy/etap4-5.jpg
Stage 5:
[img]http://tourdepologne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/etapy/mapy/etap5-5.jpg
Stage 6:
[img]http://tourdepologne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/etapy/mapy/etap6-5.jpg
Stage 7:
[img]http://tourdepologne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/etapy/mapy/etap7-5.jpg
Very typical route for TdP. Mostly to reward towns that have shown support to the race and that bring fans on the route.
What I am really excited about though is Women's TdP.
First edition will only have 3 stages, including two on the second day but the ambitions are really high. Winner gets a car, and there is also plan to increase number of stages in the future and make it the biggest women's stage race in the world.
Women's route will be really mountainous. Two 50km loops in Zakopane with 6 climbs, and the next day two loops around Bukowina (also 6 climbs), followed by 4km time trial. No profiles yet.
Damn it, can't get pictures to the right size
- Mar 13, 2015
- 6,554
- 256
- 17,880
- Jun 27, 2013
- 5,217
- 9
- 17,495
Does anyone have news on Marc Goos?
It's almost two years since his injury and I've not seen a single article or piece of news on him since that day
It's almost two years since his injury and I've not seen a single article or piece of news on him since that day
- Aug 14, 2012
- 4,125
- 5,099
- 21,180
Re:
There is this interview from January.
Apparently he went to surgery again in November and things don't look very good for a professional return, he has a damaged blood vassel. He is still in contract with the team, but it's not used as a rider because the team feels that right now a return to the elite level is not possible.
http://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/131277/goos-einde-verhaal-als-ik-in-2016-niet-koers.html
GuyIncognito said:
There is this interview from January.
Apparently he went to surgery again in November and things don't look very good for a professional return, he has a damaged blood vassel. He is still in contract with the team, but it's not used as a rider because the team feels that right now a return to the elite level is not possible.
http://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/131277/goos-einde-verhaal-als-ik-in-2016-niet-koers.html
- Jun 27, 2013
- 5,217
- 9
- 17,495
- May 5, 2010
- 49,709
- 28,103
- 28,180
- Dec 27, 2015
- 3,665
- 2,053
- 16,680
Re:
Broke his hip during a ITT in the Tour Of Suisse (I believe). Anyways it was a pretty bad injury and he's been walking with a crutch ever since.
RedheadDane said:
Broke his hip during a ITT in the Tour Of Suisse (I believe). Anyways it was a pretty bad injury and he's been walking with a crutch ever since.
- Jun 27, 2013
- 5,217
- 9
- 17,495
Contador's changed his mind about retiring
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/04/news/road/contador-shelves-retirement-plans-for-now_402049
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/04/news/road/contador-shelves-retirement-plans-for-now_402049
- Mar 14, 2016
- 3,092
- 7
- 0
Re:
Argh. Now that he's clearly past his prime, the longer he rides the greater the probability that he does a year too many.GuyIncognito said:
- Feb 16, 2010
- 15,112
- 5,682
- 28,180
Re:
some profiles here
http://apmforo.mforos.com/401701/11809728-vuelta-castilla-y-leon-2016/
Plus I think Valverde has committed to race
if you can believe this page
http://www.cyclingfever.com/editie.html?detp=view&_ap=startlijst&editie_idd=MjcxMjc=
Valv.Piti said:
some profiles here
http://apmforo.mforos.com/401701/11809728-vuelta-castilla-y-leon-2016/
Plus I think Valverde has committed to race
if you can believe this page
http://www.cyclingfever.com/editie.html?detp=view&_ap=startlijst&editie_idd=MjcxMjc=
Stage maps and profiles for Vuelta a Castilla y León are in the official web site. The apmforo profiles were just good guesses.
http://www.vueltacastillayleon.es/?page_id=16
No MTF at La Covatilla but at an easier neighbour climb named La Plataforma. The finish seems to be at the recently built hotel, 2 kms before the end of the road.
http://www.vueltacastillayleon.es/?page_id=16
No MTF at La Covatilla but at an easier neighbour climb named La Plataforma. The finish seems to be at the recently built hotel, 2 kms before the end of the road.
- Mar 31, 2010
- 18,136
- 5
- 0
- Mar 13, 2015
- 6,554
- 256
- 17,880
Mattia Gavazzi positive for cocaine for the third time
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mattia-gavazzi-positive-for-cocaine-for-the-third-time/
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mattia-gavazzi-positive-for-cocaine-for-the-third-time/
- Mar 14, 2016
- 3,092
- 7
- 0
Re:
Let's hope he doesn't end up dead, alone in a hotel room. Such a long-lasting addiction bodes ill.TMP402 said:
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
Tour de Suisse 2025 - Men's (June 15- June 22)- Started by Tricycle Rider
- Replies: 1K
-
Giro d'Italia Giro d'Italia 2025 stage 20: Verrès – Sestrière, 205 km- Started by Samu Cuenca
- Replies: 1K
-
Giro d'Italia Giro D'italia 2025 Stage 16: Piazzola sul Brenta – San Valentino- Started by YavorD
- Replies: 1K
-
Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread- Started by DNP-Old
- Replies: 31K
-
Giro d'Italia Giro d'Italia 2025 Stage 17: San Michele all’Adige – Bormio, 155 km- Started by Samu Cuenca
- Replies: 742
-
Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread- Started by Lequack
- Replies: 32K
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram