Geraint Thomas, the next british hope

[hrotha]

I *did* say something back then: namely, that Sky's classics team wouldn't strike me as particularly suspicious by itself, except by association with the rest of the team. Whether you like it or not, Paris-Roubaix doesn't work like the Tour, not because the latter is the Tour, but because we have much more developed models for performance on long climbs. So spare me your unfounded elitism.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

It did. As much as 2014 Paris-Nice, Tour of Flanders & Paris-Roubaix. The leap from Out of time limits to 7th at Paris-Roubaix is much more gigantic than what he's done lately, mind you.

You didn't say anything back then. As usual, "dirty" performances can only happen in summer and on GT's. In the spring classics, it doesn't happen. It's small fry...

Are you seriously saying that a rider who had previously won Junior Roubaix, finished 2nd in a cobbled stage in the Tour, 2nd in Dwars door Vlaanderen, 3rd and 4th in E3, 4th in the Omloop and 8th and 10th in Flanders underwent a bigger transformation in Paris Roubaix in 2014 then he did this year in the mountains?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re:

Budget Forklifts should target the giro next year with Bobridge.
Should be able to podium without too much trouble because track.

Yeah, too bad those at BMC dont have marginal gains, only some ex- DS's and a doctor who was pretty soon kicked of team sky.

 

[dottigirl]

Re: Re:

Love this photo:

Even Froome is like..... wtf?

G in such a good mood he's even giving charity shelter to the whole line here.

He's from Wales - he's happy as he loves riding in the wet. He's said as much several times.

The others hate it, and they're stuck on his wheel getting splattered. They were expecting intense heat, and it pissed down. It's actually rather amusing.

Comparing this to another photo with completely different conditions is just unbelievable.

 

[samhocking]

Paris-Roubaix Juniors is for 17 & 18 year olds only. Paris–Roubaix Espoirs is a different race for under 23's guys.

I picked Thomas's 2004 Junior Roubaix result, specifically because it came before he was part of BC, and achieved off his own back and it was that particular win that got him noticed by BC Olympic Endurance Track Program and invited for testing for placing him on the Endurance track program where he has been from 2005-2012. That Roubaix win came before he was part of the BC system and is significant to explaining why once released from endurance track and domestique duties he will follow the same path as Wiggins because they both ended up following similar career paths.

Most doping revelations seem to surface one way or another within 5-10 years. This hasn't been the case with any of British Cycling athletes for the last 20 years and Sky is a continuation of this for the last 6 years. Arguably the success is now 26 years old. While no doping violations for 26 years isn't proof of not doping, it is either proof of riding clean or investing a lot of resource to cheat which there is equally 26 years of no evidence either!

 

[Hugh Januss]

Re: Re:

You think they dope?

Without a shred of doubt, as should anyone who follows cycling.

Really? All of them? Without a shred of doubt? No chance you're overstating it just by a sliver?

There is this much chance he is overstating that.
https://youtu.be/yCFB2akLh4s

 

[difdauf]

Re:

Paris-Roubaix Juniors is for 17 & 18 year olds only. Paris–Roubaix Espoirs is a different race for under 23's guys.

I picked Thomas's 2004 Junior Roubaix result, specifically because it came before he was part of BC, and achieved off his own back and it was that particular win that got him noticed by BC Olympic Endurance Track Program and invited for testing for placing him on the Endurance track program where he has been from 2005-2012. That Roubaix win came before he was part of the BC system and is significant to explaining why once released from endurance track and domestique duties he will follow the same path as Wiggins because they both ended up following similar career paths.

Most doping revelations seem to surface one way or another within 5-10 years. This hasn't been the case with any of British Cycling athletes for the last 20 years and Sky is a continuation of this for the last 6 years. Arguably the success is now 26 years old. While no doping violations for 26 years isn't proof of not doping, it is either proof of riding clean or investing a lot of resource to cheat which there is equally 26 years of no evidence either!

Tiernan-Locke is not that old.

Legally or not, it's obvious that sky has something that the others don't have. All those sky riders perform at a really higher level than expected before they join sky.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

You think they dope?

Without a shred of doubt, as should anyone who follows cycling.

Really? All of them? Without a shred of doubt? No chance you're overstating it just by a sliver?

There is this much chance he is overstating that.
https://youtu.be/yCFB2akLh4s

I'l give you an A on the video but a C on the phrasing. A video embed option would be swell.

Budget Forklifts should target the giro next year with Bobridge.
Should be able to podium without too much trouble because track.

Yeah, too bad those at BMC dont have marginal gains, only some ex- DS's and a doctor who was pretty soon kicked of team sky.

I think Van Avermaet would be a better candidate. Thirty years old, so the right age, the right build and he would seem to score at least in the passable range in terms of sustained above-threshold power.

 

[samhocking]

Tiernan-Locke came out of the French Amateur racing from 2004 to 2006/7 not really British Cycling like Thomas and Wiggins. Sure he was selected for U23 road out of his success in France, but I don't think he was ever part of any road or track development program by British Cycling afaik.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Re: Re:

You think they dope?

Without a shred of doubt, as should anyone who follows cycling.

Really? All of them? Without a shred of doubt? No chance you're overstating it just by a sliver?

There is this much chance he is overstating that.
https://youtu.be/yCFB2akLh4s

I'l give you an A on the video but a C on the phrasing. A video embed option would be swell.

Budget Forklifts should target the giro next year with Bobridge.
Should be able to podium without too much trouble because track.

Yeah, too bad those at BMC dont have marginal gains, only some ex- DS's and a doctor who was pretty soon kicked of team sky.

I think Van Avermaet would be a better candidate. Thirty years old, so the right age, the right build and he would seem to score at least in the passable range in terms of sustained above-threshold power.

Being able to quote just the previous post instead of the entire string of posts would be even sweller.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

Being able to quote just the previous post instead of the entire string of posts would be even sweller.

I think that the whole: "You think they dope?/Without a shred of doubt, as should anyone who follows cycling./Really? All of them? Without a shred of doubt? No chance you're overstating it just by a sliver?/There is this much chance he is overstating that" was needed to understand that last bit. Hence the tough scoring the phrasing.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Re:

Froome backs Thomas to lead Tour team:

Having been a super-domestique for Bradley Wiggins in 2012 when his countryman became the first ever British Tour winner, Froome believes Thomas can also step up from helper to leader one day.

"Obviously it's a role I'm familiar with, a role I've done myself in the past," said Froome.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/froome-backs-thomas-lead-tour-team-235649683--spt.html

"Geraint's been great, absolutely fantastic -- he was there all through the first week on the Tour, in crosswinds and in the rain.

"We've got into the Pyrenees and finished the hardest Pyrenean stages now and he's been right up there in both of them.

"It's fantastic riding by him, I don't think it's going to be long before we see 'G' leading a Grand Tour for himself."

I can think of at least one other very good classics rider that went on to have success at the French Grand Tour. Maybe GT will go Cannibal on us and win Flanders, TdF and worlds in the same year. Sounds legit.

 

[difdauf]

Re:

Tiernan-Locke came out of the French Amateur racing from 2004 to 2006/7 not really British Cycling like Thomas and Wiggins. Sure he was selected for U23 road out of his success in France, but I don't think he was ever part of any road or track development program by British Cycling afaik.

A british cyclist who rode for 4 different british teams, lead the british national team and won the tour of great britain is not a true british cyclist because he was in a french team for 2 years ?

Armstrong isn't an american cycling product, he spent one year in cofidis.
Virenque isn't a french cycling product, he rodes for 2 belgian's teams.

 

[buckle]

Re: Geraint Thomas, the next British hope and Dan Martin

Does anyone know why Dan Martin chose RoI over UK? What advantages/disadvantages in respect of G for example?

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Tiernan-Locke came out of the French Amateur racing from 2004 to 2006/7 not really British Cycling like Thomas and Wiggins. Sure he was selected for U23 road out of his success in France, but I don't think he was ever part of any road or track development program by British Cycling afaik.

A british cyclist who rode for 4 different british teams, lead the british national team and won the tour of great britain is not a true british cyclist because he was in a french team for 2 years ?

Armstrong isn't an american cycling product, he spent one year in cofidis.
Virenque isn't a french cycling product, he rodes for 2 belgian's teams.

He's a product of British cycling, not of British Cycling.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Most doping revelations seem to surface one way or another within 5-10 years. T

You have some evidence for this? Or is providing evidence to back up arguments only something that should be required of people who don't support Sky?

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Geraint Thomas, the next British hope and Dan Martin

Does anyone know why Dan Martin chose RoI over UK? What advantages/disadvantages in respect of G for example?

I don't know why, but financially it seems like it may have been a catastrophic decision. Imagine how fast someone who could actually ride up gradients as a youth could climb Pierre St Martin if put on the same fuel wiggins froome and thomas have
Probably would find some secret tt skills.

 

[Franklin]

Re: Re:

Most doping revelations seem to surface one way or another within 5-10 years. T

You have some evidence for this? Or is providing evidence to back up arguments only something that should be required of people who don't support Sky?

Don't you know? Indurain was clean. Never a squeak out of Banesto. Argentin? And Ariostea? Pure cycling at it's best

Heck, even if we look at CSC, beside the Basso positive, there are ZERO stories of inside doping. I'd say everyone besides Basso is clean as well. Phonak? Well there are three major positives, but there's zero evidence the whole team was dirty. It's a fair guess it were just those three who did it privately.

On a more serious note, contrary to what Sammy thinks, doping revelation beyond a single caught rider only get out if people are either thrown in the slammer or scared by the feds.

 

[daz]

Re: Geraint Thomas, the next British hope and Dan Martin

Does anyone know why Dan Martin chose RoI over UK? What advantages/disadvantages in respect of G for example?

He had no interest in track cycling only the road so choose ireland

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Geraint Thomas, the next British hope and Dan Martin

Does anyone know why Dan Martin chose RoI over UK? What advantages/disadvantages in respect of G for example?

Something to do with being ignored by Brit Cycling, but not sure where i read that.

His Uncle Roche Snr claims "it suited him"

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/roche-claims-nephew-martin-became-irish-because-it-suited-him-30199847.html

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Most doping revelations seem to surface one way or another within 5-10 years. T

You have some evidence for this? Or is providing evidence to back up arguments only something that should be required of people who don't support Sky?

What more evidence do you want than what is already there. Christie, Baxter, Hingis, Warne, Smith, Chambers, Pantani, Jones, Johnson, Armstrong, Yanyan, Bonds, Festina, Fuentes, Rasmussen, Vino, Landis, keep adding every other succesfull cyclist after this who's doping revelations were revealed within their own careers and within 10 years.

 

[wendybnt]

Re: Re:

Legally or not, it's obvious that sky has something that the others don't have. All those sky riders perform at a really higher level than expected before they join sky.

You think? What about EBH?

So what is it that Sky have? Why did Froome have it in the Vuelta 2011, but it was in short supply in that year's tour, prior to Wiggins exit? Why hasn't it been given to the Giro teams? Why did they not give it to Porte last year? Why have the other teams that have taken on key ex-Sky riders, with their knowledge of what this mystery substance is, not been able to dominate? If Sky's ascendency coincided with Leinders, and he supplied whatever it is then how is it that he is only willing to supply to Sky and nobody else?

It doesn't make sense. I haven't got any answers here, as I can't make sense of any of what I am seeing from a doping perspective or a clean perpective.

 

[Cycle Chic]

some good questions by wendybnt

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Tiernan-Locke came out of the French Amateur racing from 2004 to 2006/7 not really British Cycling like Thomas and Wiggins. Sure he was selected for U23 road out of his success in France, but I don't think he was ever part of any road or track development program by British Cycling afaik.

A british cyclist who rode for 4 different british teams, lead the british national team and won the tour of great britain is not a true british cyclist because he was in a french team for 2 years ?

Armstrong isn't an american cycling product, he spent one year in cofidis.
Virenque isn't a french cycling product, he rodes for 2 belgian's teams.

My point is not about the Britishness of each rider, it's what career path they followed and where their careers are now on the road. The rider who didn't come through British Cycling has no career, a doping violation and a ban and the rider who did, doesn't. That was my point.

What i'm saying is either the rider is clean or British Cycling/Sky invest in ways to cheat for 20+ years now without anyone with any evidence of where the money comes from to develop such knowledge or doping products, yet the rider who never went through British Cycling/Sky was caught within 10 years of their pro career beginning. Both are British riders, of similar age and similar potential shown at the beginning of their careers.

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Re:

Most doping revelations seem to surface one way or another within 5-10 years.

What more evidence do you want than what is already there. Christie, Baxter, Hingis, Warne, Smith, Chambers, Pantani, Jones, Johnson, Armstrong, Yanyan, Bonds, Festina, Fuentes, Rasmussen, Vino, Landis, keep adding every other succesfull cyclist after this who's doping revelations were revealed within their own careers and within 10 years.

Your posts remind me of how, back in the early 80s, it was thought that most people infected with HIV did not get AIDS, while that small % who did so developed the disease within two years. It was not appreciated at the time that the mean lag period is much longer than two years, so most infected people existing at the time had not yet developed the disease and it was incorrectly assumed they wouldn’t. It took a much longer time period to reveal that almost everyone infected eventually does get AIDS.

In the same way, you’re assuming that because (according to you) most doping revelations come within 5-10 years after the act, anyone who isn’t exposed during this period must be clean. In fact, the “lag period” between doping and testing positive or other evidence is probably far longer than that, so long that most dopers won’t be caught before they retire. So when you say “doping revelations were revealed within their own careers and within 10 years”, you’re framing the issue so that it has to come out like that. With rare exceptions like LA, athletes are not pursued after they retire. So of course it’s not common that doping is revealed after much longer periods of time.

Even so, when dopers are pursued after retirement, or other evidence comes out, it becomes clear that the period between doping and exposure can be far longer than ten years. LA himself was not officially sanctioned until 2012, around twenty years, if not more, after he began doping. Riis finally admitted in 2007, at least fifteen, maybe twenty, years after he began doing it. It’s not much of a secret that Indurain was doping more than twenty years ago, and he still has not been officially exposed. There is Zabel, and any number of less well-known riders in the peloton of the 90s who unquestionably were using EPO, and have never been identified let alone sanctioned.

To avoid false positives, drug testing is set up in a way that guarantees that many dopers will pass any single test, and studies have shown that the odds of testing positive are quite low, even over long periods of time and under today’s stricter testing protocols. While statistical data of this kind can’t be used to conclude that any particular athlete is doping, it most definitely can be used to conclude that a lot of athletes could be doping and not getting caught. Not 5-10 years after the fact, not during their careers, most likely not ever.