And of course, it does beg the question why Geraint 1.0 could not even trouble the top-10 or even show signs that he could trouble the top-10 when apparently he had all the tools for it.
I'm pretty certain someone brought to your attention the glaring difference in age between the two at the time of their initial Tour wins.samhocking said:Isn't it rather meaningless, unless you know what Tours they had leadership in? i.e. Thomas won on his second attempt as a leader, same as Contador did for example?
And as I said, Thomas won his first Tour on his second attempt when he had leadership responsibility.Angliru said:I'm pretty certain someone brought to your attention the glaring difference in age between the two at the time of their initial Tour wins.samhocking said:Isn't it rather meaningless, unless you know what Tours they had leadership in? i.e. Thomas won on his second attempt as a leader, same as Contador did for example?
I am viewing Thomas as a doper in order to maintain my point, what's so complicated. If you're comparing Thomas the doper, to rider x in the past who was a doper, then any 'believable rider' is rather pointless. As Armstrong said, without doping for the Worlds he would never have won it and today if that race was ridden today, he said he wouldn't stand a chance as that level of cheating isn't possible today to make the difference anymore, so looking at riders palamares doping from the moment they entered the peloton and winning at a young age is pointless as Armstrong's Worlds proved. ie none of it is based on natural ability in reality, it's based on doping, even in their 20's.mrhender said:Then why the comparisons you just performed above?
You can't have it both ways.
I believe the primary question is if he had all of this latent talent for grand tour success, riding for a large portion of his career for a team that is so far advanced in every area (or that is what they and their fans tell us), how is it possible that he wasn't presented with more opportunities to succeed and bring further glory to his team, or why didn't this obvious talent not stand out from the rest of his teammates who were given multiple opportunities at grand tours? You're talking 11 years and 9 years before he even reached the podium of major week long stage race.samhocking said:And as I said, Thomas won his first Tour on his second attempt when he had leadership responsibility.Angliru said:I'm pretty certain someone brought to your attention the glaring difference in age between the two at the time of their initial Tour wins.samhocking said:Isn't it rather meaningless, unless you know what Tours they had leadership in? i.e. Thomas won on his second attempt as a leader, same as Contador did for example?
Even on his first attempt in 2016, did you know when he had his bad day, rather than maintain his place on GC, he decided to ease up in order to save his legs to help Froome win the next day.
...and wouldn't that also apply to Thomas? If the science is so clear to some, why is it that he passed up the potential riches, fame and fortune that would've been available to him had he immediately pursued grand tour success earlier in his career, instead of the cobbled classics and basic domestique duties in stage races?samhocking said:Well, he's not doing it all at the same time is he. When he did Track he was the best at it, when he did classics he was one of the best at that, then he switched to week long stage races and was very good at that, now he's switched to Grand Tours with leadership responsibility and he won that.
I think the obvious point being, that many Grand Tour riders, with focused training over a year or two could be World Pursuit Champions. Many could probably be pretty good classics riders too, but the top of the tree is the Grand Tours. If you're already there, like Contador, Indurain or Armstrong from a young age via doping, why would give it all up to ride a World Pursuit final and only get a bag of peanuts as your salary?
(Sorry for the off topic)samhocking said:I am viewing Thomas as a doper in order to maintain my point, what's so complicated. If you're comparing Thomas the doper, to rider x in the past who was a doper, then any 'believable rider' is rather pointless. As Armstrong said, without doping for the Worlds he would never have won it and today if that race was ridden today, he said he wouldn't stand a chance as that level of cheating isn't possible today to make the difference anymore, so looking at riders palamares doping from the moment they entered the peloton and winning at a young age is pointless as Armstrong's Worlds proved. ie none of it is based on natural ability in reality, it's based on doping, even in their 20's.mrhender said:Then why the comparisons you just performed above?
You can't have it both ways.
I think the only person moving goalposts is you. Maybe go back and read what you said about pursuit riders making great ITT riders. Then you include Stuart O'Grady and Luke Roberts because they were on winning teams. Yet neither were super ITT riders. How is that for moving the goalposts.samhocking said:So now you're moving the goalposts 'after' you've realised what you said was false?
It was a simple fact I stated. that pursuit riders (all are world pursuit champions in that list) also make great TT riders and that list proves it. Clearly most pursuit riders don't cross over to pro road careers and don't because the demands of the pursuit means that's not possible within an Olympic year/cycle. Even Wiggins never crossed over much, if at all in the same Olympic year, he was either road or track. Many never cross over, so we'll never know how good they might have been. However, most of those that did enter a pro road career either from pursuit or while still pursuit riders at the highest level, also competed at the very top level at TT and TTT on the road.
If being a world pursuit champion in that list 'didn't' translate to TT, there would be nobody in that list with TT results at the highest level, among established road riders and timetrial specialists who do it day in day out and is their entire career! One would assume there were at least a handful of decent-enough road riders to beat a 3 or 4km pursuit rider in a long road TT, but clearly not!
So let me get this straight... you're arguing:samhocking said:the top of the tree is the Grand Tours. If you're already there, like Contador, Indurain or Armstrong from a young age via doping, why would give it all up to ride a World Pursuit final and only get a bag of peanuts as your salary?
He was one of the best classics riders? He had a few good results but not enough to call him one of the best.samhocking said:Well, he's not doing it all at the same time is he. When he did Track he was the best at it, when he did classics he was one of the best at that, then he switched to week long stage races and was very good at that, now he's switched to Grand Tours with leadership responsibility and he won that.
I think the obvious point being, that many Grand Tour riders, with focused training over a year or two could be World Pursuit Champions. Many could probably be pretty good classics riders too, but the top of the tree is the Grand Tours. If you're already there, like Contador, Indurain or Armstrong from a young age via doping, why would give it all up to ride a World Pursuit final and only get a bag of peanuts as your salary?
All the dialectics here lead us to this essential question.Winterfold said:I'm not sure why I am helping him but both Boardman and Obree went from pursuit to the Hour Record, which supports some of his physiological argument.Fearless Greg Lemond said:samhocking said:Still waiting for your list of pursuiters who kicked *** at TT's though?
The flaw is that track cycling requires upper body strength to resist the G force and constant acceleration - this then becomes a big problem when you hit the mountains in a road race. When in a steady state in the velodrome, or a flat prologue mass can be overcome by aerodynamics so both Boardman's and Obree's 'technical doping' worked. You can't do this in the mountains, there is no way of hiding mass from gravity.
The debate really is can you turn 85kg of trackie into 67kg of GT winner without them losing power? Not credibly to many of us...
I don't know the physical reasons and difficulty with retaining a certain percentage of your power after shedding significant kgs, but a part of the reason why great classics riders don't try shedding 10-20 kgs and giving the GC a go is because it is a risk. As has been mentioned, Thomas was not a great classics rider. He was a good classics rider. Certainly he had less success to give up then the cyclists you mentioned above by forgoing his classics career. I would have loved to have seen how Cancellara could have gone on GC in a GT, but he never took that at all seriously. And why should he have? He would be giving up likely victories in the cobbled classics for what? A top 10? Maybe. A podium? Very unlikely. The point here is that Thomas is a talented cyclist, but as he wasn't a great classics rider he wasn't giving up so much to give stage racing a serious go.The Hegelian said:Nikki Terpstra's coach said that he (Terpstra) lost 1-2kgs in 2018, and this was the difference between being a good classics rider to a great one.
For Thomas, we're talking about 10+ kgs and it's not like he was a couch potato at 85; he was an Olympic champion, thoroughbred athlete, at the very peak of his fitness.
So how the bloody hell does he just morph his physique into something completely different? Someone please explain this.
And also: why doesn't Sagan do this? Terpstra for that matter. GVA and all the other powerhouses with big engines that will never in a million years contend for a GT because of one single factor: their weight.
Okay so your argument is: Sagan, Terpstra, Cancellera etc could all have won/win/podium/top 10 GT's, if only they commit to it by taking a risk and potentially sacrificing success in their areas of brilliance.gregrowlerson said:I don't know the physical reasons and difficulty with retaining a certain percentage of your power after shedding significant kgs, but a part of the reason why great classics riders don't try shedding 10-20 kgs and giving the GC a go is because it is a risk. As has been mentioned, Thomas was not a great classics rider. He was a good classics rider. Certainly he had less success to give up then the cyclists you mentioned above by forgoing his classics career. I would have loved to have seen how Cancellara could have gone on GC in a GT, but he never took that at all seriously. And why should he have? He would be giving up likely victories in the cobbled classics for what? A top 10? Maybe. A podium? Very unlikely. The point here is that Thomas is a talented cyclist, but as he wasn't a great classics rider he wasn't giving up so much to give stage racing a serious go.The Hegelian said:Nikki Terpstra's coach said that he (Terpstra) lost 1-2kgs in 2018, and this was the difference between being a good classics rider to a great one.
For Thomas, we're talking about 10+ kgs and it's not like he was a couch potato at 85; he was an Olympic champion, thoroughbred athlete, at the very peak of his fitness.
So how the bloody hell does he just morph his physique into something completely different? Someone please explain this.
And also: why doesn't Sagan do this? Terpstra for that matter. GVA and all the other powerhouses with big engines that will never in a million years contend for a GT because of one single factor: their weight.
BTW, I would love to see how Sagan could go in GC. We already know that he is quite a good climber. But he'd have to lose 8-10 kgs and potentially waste an entire season. And who knows if he could then return to the rider that he was?
And many of those riders simply don't want to take all those extra drugs to lose that weight and keep it off. There are many more health risks to consider.The Hegelian said:Okay so your argument is: Sagan, Terpstra, Cancellera etc could all have won/win/podium/top 10 GT's, if only they commit to it by taking a risk and potentially sacrificing success in their areas of brilliance.gregrowlerson said:I don't know the physical reasons and difficulty with retaining a certain percentage of your power after shedding significant kgs, but a part of the reason why great classics riders don't try shedding 10-20 kgs and giving the GC a go is because it is a risk. As has been mentioned, Thomas was not a great classics rider. He was a good classics rider. Certainly he had less success to give up then the cyclists you mentioned above by forgoing his classics career. I would have loved to have seen how Cancellara could have gone on GC in a GT, but he never took that at all seriously. And why should he have? He would be giving up likely victories in the cobbled classics for what? A top 10? Maybe. A podium? Very unlikely. The point here is that Thomas is a talented cyclist, but as he wasn't a great classics rider he wasn't giving up so much to give stage racing a serious go.The Hegelian said:Nikki Terpstra's coach said that he (Terpstra) lost 1-2kgs in 2018, and this was the difference between being a good classics rider to a great one.
For Thomas, we're talking about 10+ kgs and it's not like he was a couch potato at 85; he was an Olympic champion, thoroughbred athlete, at the very peak of his fitness.
So how the bloody hell does he just morph his physique into something completely different? Someone please explain this.
And also: why doesn't Sagan do this? Terpstra for that matter. GVA and all the other powerhouses with big engines that will never in a million years contend for a GT because of one single factor: their weight.
BTW, I would love to see how Sagan could go in GC. We already know that he is quite a good climber. But he'd have to lose 8-10 kgs and potentially waste an entire season. And who knows if he could then return to the rider that he was?
It's just a matter of dropping the weight, and hey presto, a classics beast changes into a GC beast.
My argument is: there's no plausible way to drop that much weight, whilst maintaining/gaining power without cheating. Whenever those kinds of transformations have happened in the past, it's always been a massive, massive red flag for doping - for mine, Jalabert and Armstrong are the two big standouts, it looked bloody suss back then, and it turned out to be bloody suss once we got all the facts.
Since this is largely about Thomas, just a bit on his own weight loss (if the figures can be believed)veganrob said:And many of those riders simply don't want to take all those extra drugs to lose that weight and keep it off. There are many more health risks to consider.The Hegelian said:Okay so your argument is: Sagan, Terpstra, Cancellera etc could all have won/win/podium/top 10 GT's, if only they commit to it by taking a risk and potentially sacrificing success in their areas of brilliance.gregrowlerson said:I don't know the physical reasons and difficulty with retaining a certain percentage of your power after shedding significant kgs, but a part of the reason why great classics riders don't try shedding 10-20 kgs and giving the GC a go is because it is a risk. As has been mentioned, Thomas was not a great classics rider. He was a good classics rider. Certainly he had less success to give up then the cyclists you mentioned above by forgoing his classics career. I would have loved to have seen how Cancellara could have gone on GC in a GT, but he never took that at all seriously. And why should he have? He would be giving up likely victories in the cobbled classics for what? A top 10? Maybe. A podium? Very unlikely. The point here is that Thomas is a talented cyclist, but as he wasn't a great classics rider he wasn't giving up so much to give stage racing a serious go.The Hegelian said:Nikki Terpstra's coach said that he (Terpstra) lost 1-2kgs in 2018, and this was the difference between being a good classics rider to a great one.
For Thomas, we're talking about 10+ kgs and it's not like he was a couch potato at 85; he was an Olympic champion, thoroughbred athlete, at the very peak of his fitness.
So how the bloody hell does he just morph his physique into something completely different? Someone please explain this.
And also: why doesn't Sagan do this? Terpstra for that matter. GVA and all the other powerhouses with big engines that will never in a million years contend for a GT because of one single factor: their weight.
BTW, I would love to see how Sagan could go in GC. We already know that he is quite a good climber. But he'd have to lose 8-10 kgs and potentially waste an entire season. And who knows if he could then return to the rider that he was?
It's just a matter of dropping the weight, and hey presto, a classics beast changes into a GC beast.
My argument is: there's no plausible way to drop that much weight, whilst maintaining/gaining power without cheating. Whenever those kinds of transformations have happened in the past, it's always been a massive, massive red flag for doping - for mine, Jalabert and Armstrong are the two big standouts, it looked bloody suss back then, and it turned out to be bloody suss once we got all the facts.
I saw PCMG already called you on your BS.samhocking said:Well off the world pursuit champions that come to mind that also did very well on road in ITT and TTT I can immediately think of the following names. I'm sure there are plenty of others who've crossed over as it's an obvious choice to do well in ITT if you're a pursuit champion.
AUS
Jack Bobridge - UCI Road World Under–23 Championships ITT, National ITT Champion, 5th UCI Worlds ITT
Melissa Hoskins - 2nd UCI World Team time trial
Stuart OGrady - 1st Tour de France ITT 2013, 2nd Commonwealth Games ITT
Luke Roberts - 1st Endenhoven TTT
Brett Lancaster - 2nd World Team Time Trial Championships, 1st Junior National Time Trial Championships, 3rd Eindhoven Team Time Trial
Bradley McGee - 1st ITT Tour de Suisse, 1st Giro ITT
GBR
Thomas - we already know
Wiggins - we already know
Owain Doull - 3rd UCI TTT Championships, 2nd National Under–23 ITT, 2nd National ITT
Joanna Rowsell - 1st National Time Trial Championships
Chris Boardman - we already know
Graeme Obree - we already know
RUS
Viatcheslav Ekimov - 1st Time trial, Olympic Games etc etc
FR
Jeannie Longo - 1st World Time Trial Championship etc etc
NZ
Sarah Ulmer - 1st National Time Trial Championships, 1st ITT Oceania Games
HOL
Leontien van Moorsel - 1st Olympic ITT x 2, 1st National ITT, 2nd Commonwealth Games etc etc
US
Chloé Dygert - 1st World Junior ITT
Fearless Greg Lemond said:I saw PCMG already called you on your BS.samhocking said:Well off the world pursuit champions that come to mind that also did very well on road in ITT and TTT I can immediately think of the following names. I'm sure there are plenty of others who've crossed over as it's an obvious choice to do well in ITT if you're a pursuit champion.
AUS
Jack Bobridge - UCI Road World Under–23 Championships ITT, National ITT Champion, 5th UCI Worlds ITT
Melissa Hoskins - 2nd UCI World Team time trial
Stuart OGrady - 1st Tour de France ITT 2013, 2nd Commonwealth Games ITT
Luke Roberts - 1st Endenhoven TTT
Brett Lancaster - 2nd World Team Time Trial Championships, 1st Junior National Time Trial Championships, 3rd Eindhoven Team Time Trial
Bradley McGee - 1st ITT Tour de Suisse, 1st Giro ITT
GBR
Thomas - we already know
Wiggins - we already know
Owain Doull - 3rd UCI TTT Championships, 2nd National Under–23 ITT, 2nd National ITT
Joanna Rowsell - 1st National Time Trial Championships
Chris Boardman - we already know
Graeme Obree - we already know
RUS
Viatcheslav Ekimov - 1st Time trial, Olympic Games etc etc
FR
Jeannie Longo - 1st World Time Trial Championship etc etc
NZ
Sarah Ulmer - 1st National Time Trial Championships, 1st ITT Oceania Games
HOL
Leontien van Moorsel - 1st Olympic ITT x 2, 1st National ITT, 2nd Commonwealth Games etc etc
US
Chloé Dygert - 1st World Junior ITT
Please do a better google search next time you're called on your bluff.
The only one who came from track and was a DECENT TT'er on your list is Brad McGee. He tried to do GC, didnt need to shed KG's because he wasnt 'fat' like your Brit heroes, and did one decent Giro, 2003 or so?
Stop trolling people who have actually seen the people on your 'list' race.
Boardman was good, very good, at PROLOGUES by the way.
That's what track riders who switch to road racing normally are good at.