- Aug 30, 2010
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You partially answered your own question. But you have not been around here long enoughto know why Sky gets more animosity directed toward them. It has been discussed over and over and over again but the Sky Faithful can't respond and then sweep it away like it was never discussed.Bwlch y Groes said:
I'm not going to rehash it all. It hasn't done any good so far.
- Aug 15, 2016
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veganrob said:
My registration date may be 2016 but I'd been reading this forum for a couple of years before that. I know exactly why Sky gets particular animosity - that's my point. It's not the doping - it's the success, and the PR. The doping is an extension of that as it's one of the factors behind it, but it's not the reason they are getting shot at here - that much is obvious. Because if it was exclusively due to doping, there would be a lot more posts and threads about other riders and teams - and we wouldn't be focusing on Thomas' transformation while turning a blind eye (relatively speaking) to Dumoulin's or Roglic's. It's worth being honest and up-front that it's more than doping - I know some of you are but not everyone
And that's fine. I don't like Sky either. I just get bored about reading the same arguments over and over again, and generally don't bother touching those threads. It's a shame to me because I think there are a lot more interesting discussions to be had about doping in cycling, and the problems with Sky go way beyond doping
veganrob said:
I don't think that Sky riders are a lesser evil in fact the rest of the riders silence on the subject of cheating speaks volumes. Sky's real issue is claiming to be white when they are at best dark grey and at worst black. Their situation being worsened by SDB's attempt to PR/spin his way through the storm. This is at the crux of it. I don't think fans are pissed about the hypocrisy - its the hypocrisy combined with the spin/insulting of their intelligence from Sky set against the last 30 years of doping scandals.
From a PR viewpoint SDB presenting GT as this years Tour winner is akin to a Husband coming home with flowers after spending a week getting mashed up with his mates. The flowers are nice but it still doesn't explain why he hasn't answered his phone for the past 7 days.
- Mar 10, 2009
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Bwlch y Groes said:
The attention they receive in terms of volume of posts and threads is proportional to the attention that they covet/receive from the media and the consequential success of their "program". To expect an equal proportion of attention to be placed on Sky's rivals especially individually is just not reasonable or realistic. There was a large contingent group that were uncomplimentary about Contador and his performances, many of which were either Schleck brother fans or Cadel Evans fans, primarily because he was thwarting the efforts of their preferred rider's to win. When Contador began to win less, he seemed to actually gain more fans, even from the aforementioned groups.
Success, arrogance, dominance, condescension, insulting the intelligence of the fans, insulting entire nationalities....I could go on and on. They get the attention they deserve.
Cookster15
Moderator
- May 14, 2011
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Re: Re:
Hype alert. I agree that Thomas transformation from track to Tour winning climber is mega suspect but your cherry picking of PdB times of Thomas and Armstrong does not help your argument either Hitch. Can you explain why when Thomas won on Alpe D'Huez his time up that mountain was nearly 4 minutes slower than Armstrong's best and this is despite Sky riding high tempo from bottom to top to nullify attacks? Can you at least admit the doping controls are having some effect? Over 1 km effect on the Alpe based on my example.
The Hitch said:
Hype alert. I agree that Thomas transformation from track to Tour winning climber is mega suspect but your cherry picking of PdB times of Thomas and Armstrong does not help your argument either Hitch. Can you explain why when Thomas won on Alpe D'Huez his time up that mountain was nearly 4 minutes slower than Armstrong's best and this is despite Sky riding high tempo from bottom to top to nullify attacks? Can you at least admit the doping controls are having some effect? Over 1 km effect on the Alpe based on my example.
- Feb 14, 2014
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Re: Re:
1) Armstrong's best time was a time trial from the foot of the climb while this year it came at the end of a stage featuring two other very gnarly climbs.
2) Thomas, Froome, Bardet and Dumoulin also dropped roughly a minute by looking at each other and soft-pedalling at the end.
Not saying they aren't slower than the guys at the early noughties, but they definitely wouldn't have been four minutes slower than prime Armstrong on a l'Alpe TT.
Two big factors:Cookster15 said:
1) Armstrong's best time was a time trial from the foot of the climb while this year it came at the end of a stage featuring two other very gnarly climbs.
2) Thomas, Froome, Bardet and Dumoulin also dropped roughly a minute by looking at each other and soft-pedalling at the end.
Not saying they aren't slower than the guys at the early noughties, but they definitely wouldn't have been four minutes slower than prime Armstrong on a l'Alpe TT.
- Apr 20, 2012
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Thats a cool story.samhocking said:
I tend to think they both doped to do so.
Velasco doped with style though, not with sideburns.
Are you still trying to defend Sky sam? After all these years?
1 donk who has won more GT's than Laurent Fignon, ergo Froome?
1 decent TT'er who just had to loose the fat, and some injections every now and then, ergo Wiggins?
1 talented track rider who just had to concentrate at GT racing to become this succesfull, ergo Thomas?
Are you really still trying to defend that bunch?
*** me, I guess Darwin was wrong with his evolution theory.
- Jun 14, 2010
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Re: Re:
Maybe it takes Thomas longer to do ale d huez than Armstrong because Thomas even when doping to the point of being a 6 on the uci suspicion scale (meaning heavily suspicious,) was still a below average rider. Maybe it takes Thomas a lot more drugs to go half as fast as Armstrong who was the best of the best of the best during the he doping era, one in a million..
But anyway your argument has a massive hole in it I'm surprised you can't see. If pantani rides one mountain slow does that make him clean? Errr no. Ppl can ride a climb slower for any any billion reasons. When they ride it super fast in professional cycling, there is one common reason - unless you believe in fairy tales of - being a "lad" and just wanting it is more powerful than 30years of doping evolution.
Riding climbs slow is an argument for cleanliness? Then 99% of dopers ever caught should have their cases overturned since all but a few of them were never as fast as Thomas.
Cookster15 said:
Maybe it takes Thomas longer to do ale d huez than Armstrong because Thomas even when doping to the point of being a 6 on the uci suspicion scale (meaning heavily suspicious,) was still a below average rider. Maybe it takes Thomas a lot more drugs to go half as fast as Armstrong who was the best of the best of the best during the he doping era, one in a million..
But anyway your argument has a massive hole in it I'm surprised you can't see. If pantani rides one mountain slow does that make him clean? Errr no. Ppl can ride a climb slower for any any billion reasons. When they ride it super fast in professional cycling, there is one common reason - unless you believe in fairy tales of - being a "lad" and just wanting it is more powerful than 30years of doping evolution.
Riding climbs slow is an argument for cleanliness? Then 99% of dopers ever caught should have their cases overturned since all but a few of them were never as fast as Thomas.
Re: Re:
thomas has never been an average rider. back in 2011 he was about to crack top 20 in the tour gc. onwards, he delivered very decent perfomances in the mountains in 2015-2017. thomas is certainly doping, but equaling him to armstrong in this area, hell no. just have a look at lance at the beginning of 2000's. he alongside with ullrich, rumsas and others were simply 3-4 kilos heavier than thomas, froome and dimoulin at this point, which didn't hinder them from riding alpe d'huez sub 39 minutes. that was a completely different era as far as efectiveness of doping is concerned.The Hitch said:
- Jun 14, 2010
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Re: Re:
Huh? Thomas finished outside the top 30 of the 2011 TDF, 1 hour behind the winner. So maybe you meant "almost top 30"?
Its like how Froome said finishing 32nd on 1 TDF stage in 2008 was proof he could win the Tour.
The standards of proof of talent Sky riders are held to before they go Bjarne Riis is incredbile. No one would ever expect to see the ppl that beat him Gorka Verdugo Roche, Casar, Karpets, Monfort, Trofimov to win the Tour de France.
And this was his best performance. To say that Thomas wasn't a below average cyclist in 2010 because he finished almost top 30 in 1 tdf is just a lie
dacooley said:
Huh? Thomas finished outside the top 30 of the 2011 TDF, 1 hour behind the winner. So maybe you meant "almost top 30"?
Its like how Froome said finishing 32nd on 1 TDF stage in 2008 was proof he could win the Tour.
The standards of proof of talent Sky riders are held to before they go Bjarne Riis is incredbile. No one would ever expect to see the ppl that beat him Gorka Verdugo Roche, Casar, Karpets, Monfort, Trofimov to win the Tour de France.
And this was his best performance. To say that Thomas wasn't a below average cyclist in 2010 because he finished almost top 30 in 1 tdf is just a lie
Re: Re:
fair enough, what place an overweight northen classics spealists should finish at to prove having some gc prospects?The Hitch said:
for heaven's sake don't confuse me with multiple sky-believers claiming "no bans - no proof" and so on. see above where I was saying thomas is clearly doping.
- Jun 10, 2010
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He was pretty obviously an above average rider, as a look at CQ Ranking will make clear. And he could climb reasonably well, enough to become a reliable all-rounder domestique for flat and rough terrain, and a top 40 GC guy. But that's it. That made him an interesting rider with some promise for the classics and the more classics-like one-week races, not a future GT contender.
You seem to be arguing that this is proof that people in the early 2000s were more heavily doped, because they climbed faster despite being heavier. Is that correct? If so, I would argue that, most likely, the only reason riders today are lighter without losing power is that they have access to weight-loss PEDs that people in the early 2000s didn't use, so...
Re:
in the end, i have nothing against transformations armstrong, froome or thomas underwent by and large, but what active top gc riders show seems to me more believable/credible what was happening in the 90's and 2000's.
yes, from my perspective being 3-4-5 kg heavier on average took using more thermonuclear doping. though shredding fat peds probably give an advantage which is quite comparable to injecting epo / infusing stored blood, as you fairly noticed.hrotha said:
in the end, i have nothing against transformations armstrong, froome or thomas underwent by and large, but what active top gc riders show seems to me more believable/credible what was happening in the 90's and 2000's.
- Jul 30, 2009
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batchuba said:
This is a brilliant post and as a fellow champagne Marxist and semi-troll (anglophone) I salute you.
- Aug 6, 2010
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Re: Re:
Armstrong's faster time came not in an ITT, but on a multi mountain stage in 2001. That stage had also been ridden hard before the final climb (with Telokom pushing the pace).
In regards to the excellent recent post on Anglophones vs. Continentals, I think that there is a feeling amongst many that British riders don't belong here, that they belong on the track, type of sentiment. It's also the invading aspect.....France, Italy and Spain host the grand tours and their riders have historically always had the most success. Hence their current day riders are given more credibility by some as being more naturally talented than their apparently donkeyesque counterparts.
Saint Unix said:
Armstrong's faster time came not in an ITT, but on a multi mountain stage in 2001. That stage had also been ridden hard before the final climb (with Telokom pushing the pace).
In regards to the excellent recent post on Anglophones vs. Continentals, I think that there is a feeling amongst many that British riders don't belong here, that they belong on the track, type of sentiment. It's also the invading aspect.....France, Italy and Spain host the grand tours and their riders have historically always had the most success. Hence their current day riders are given more credibility by some as being more naturally talented than their apparently donkeyesque counterparts.
- Apr 16, 2009
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Your are right. Thomas time shouldn't have been 4 minutes slower. Should have been 20 minutes slower.Cookster15 said:
thehog
BANNED
- Jul 27, 2009
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Re: Re:
Fully agree. The entire “he was four minutes” slower is absurd. It’s cherry picking one stage where it was clear the favorites all slowed in the final kilometers. I think also comparing Pantani pre-50% days is not helpful. Froome / Thomas and Sky have already smashed many EPO times on climbs post 50% health rule. The mere fact that riders like Quintana and Bardet were reduced to nothingness on climbs and Thomas attacked away from them shows all you need to know.
Escarabajo said:
Fully agree. The entire “he was four minutes” slower is absurd. It’s cherry picking one stage where it was clear the favorites all slowed in the final kilometers. I think also comparing Pantani pre-50% days is not helpful. Froome / Thomas and Sky have already smashed many EPO times on climbs post 50% health rule. The mere fact that riders like Quintana and Bardet were reduced to nothingness on climbs and Thomas attacked away from them shows all you need to know.
Re: Re:
http://www.climbing-records.com/2013/07/all-time-top-100-fastest-rides-on.html?m=1
According to the top 100, it shows Armstrong's fastest ascent at the 15.5 ITT in 2004 (37:36/4th fastest ever) vs his 2nd fastest in 2001 (38:03/6th fastest). In the 03 version, he had a bad climb (for him) finishing outside the top 100 all time best (That was the year he lost to Mayo & Vino and finished about 2 mins behind with the Hamilton group).gregrowlerson said:
http://www.climbing-records.com/2013/07/all-time-top-100-fastest-rides-on.html?m=1
- Mar 11, 2009
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Re: Re:
Occam's Razor tells me either Sky has some super genius secret training and prep that no other person on the planet has figured out, let alone been able to come close to replicate, or something Clinic related is going on.
This.thehog said:
Occam's Razor tells me either Sky has some super genius secret training and prep that no other person on the planet has figured out, let alone been able to come close to replicate, or something Clinic related is going on.
- Feb 20, 2010
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Re: Re:
Now, one point that I think does need raising is that the countries you mention have much more established national calendars, amateur and espoir scenes and so forth, which means it's easier for a young rider to emerge and show the kind of results that give them that perception of credible natural talent. For example, an 18-year-old Romain Bardet was top 5 in the Tour des Pays des Savoie, a 19-year-old Mikel Landa won the Subida a Gorla, a 19-year-old Nairo Quintana was 7th in the Subida a Urkiola against seasoned pros. That kind of result is much harder for a Briton to obtain as there is very little in the way of climbing races on a very sprint-heavy British national calendar focusing on crits and TTs for them to discover such talents. As a result, transitioning to climbing on the road can often be a slower process, or require fleeing the British cycling nest, like Dan Martin did and Hugh Carthy and Dan Whitehouse too. Simon Yates won a HTF in the Tour of Britain in 2013 before turning pro, at which stage Thomas was riding the Tour with Barloworld, but with no attempt to really do anything more than survive which is fair enough at that stage (he's not Egan Bernal); the flip side of having fewer calendar races is that the globalisation drive means more chances to jump up to the pro level - a French equivalent of Russell Downing does not get to the WT in 2010, for example - and with Barloworld having a strong Anglo influence, riders who were at a lesser level than many still in the domestic scene in Italy, Spain or France were riding at the World Tour level, so some of the prospects from those nations were still developing domestically meaning they have a more instant success level when they make it to the top level rather than being visible whilst clearly not ready for a couple of years furthering the impression of them as a no-hoper (at the same time, see the mention a few weeks ago of Indurain's first couple of Vueltas, as a teenage pro-am rider). However, because of riding as a stagiare with Saunier Duval and getting an international calendar with Barloworld, it's not like Thomas didn't have the opportunity to show some climbing ability young, that might take some of the suspicion off his latter-day transformation now. You can't even argue "but he was aiming at the track back then" because Peter Kennaugh was a Team Pursuit guy too, and he was on the podium of the Girobio, including matching Richie Porte who's four years older than him on Monte Carpegna, at 20. Thomas wasn't even trying to be a climber at that point, because it was antithetical to his aims.
But that's what causes the "you don't belong" attitude. Not that they're British per se, but that they're just deciding to be a different type of rider one day, and then becoming one of the best at it. Like Laurent Jalabert after his crash with the policeman suddenly turning into a GC climber, it is a lot harder to swallow from people like Thomas and Wiggins, who have completely different specialisms that they seem perfectly built and prepared for, and then just change tack completely. Saying they had gold medals from the track can only take us so far; Joaquím Rodríguez had all the class in the world as a road cyclist, but if he took on the hour record and beat Wiggins' mark, you bet people would cry foul - because Joaquím Rodríguez was a puncheur and an explosive climber, and built accordingly, and that build was completely disadvantageous to the kind of skillset required to be a track pursuiter or time trialist, two key skills required for the Hour. It's not a claiming that Thomas was not a skilled cyclist before, because he was. He was a damned good classics man, in fact, whose propensity for crashes was the only thing that stopped him racking up a formidable palmarès because he'd frequently be super-strong in those races. However, one-day racing is a lot harder to reduce to formulae than stage races, because the longer the race, the less impact each misstep or mishap has as part of the overall whole, and the more easy it is to control as a result because if you keep it to minimal numbers of mishaps, you've got maximum available time elsewhere to compensate for it. Perhaps that's why he moved to the stage racing side of things.
Now, also, if Thomas had won the Tour in the fashion of, say, Ryder Hesjedal in the 2012 Giro, by being underestimated and hanging on in the mountains early on and taking advantage of the bonus time he got in week 1 thanks to his prior skillset, and then defended in the mountains like he's Melcior Mauri or something, or if he'd done a Giovannetti and got a big lead thanks to his Classics skills and then dropped back slowly but not quickly enough for the competition's liking in the mountains, he might have been easier to stomach. But that isn't what we saw. We saw him breathing through his nose and happily riding away from the lightweight specialist climbers, time after time. We saw him winning the queen stage on a mythical mountain by outclimbing the best. It's not that he doesn't belong because he's British. He doesn't belong, in the eyes of the sceptics, because we haven't seen him emerge after a short period of deciding what type of rider he wants to be, but instead we've seen him for a decade, we've learnt what type of rider he is, what his strengths and weaknesses are, and his current style and achievements are so completely out of line with that that it is difficult to accept.
Of course it doesn't help that he has one thing against him that hurts him more than anything else: Dave Brailsford. Thomas is a Brailsford lifer. His entire career and everything that he's achieved is linked to Brailsford. It doesn't matter that Thomas is very personable and has handled himself very well throughout this - you appear with Brailsford, suspicion is on you like white on rice. This is a point where Britain does have a perception problem, because the fact that the sport does not have the same level of grass roots and established national and amateur races that France, Spain, Belgium or Italy have means that the vast majority of their successful riders have come via some level of contact with Brailsford. But that's not a problem that leaves the implication that Britons don't belong, but rather that in the eyes of many fans it is Sky's way of doing things, with its sanitized, propagandized PR, its bludgeoning race tactics, its competition-strangling budget, and its continued charm offensive in the face of repeated examples of a complete lack of integrity, that does not belong, and unfortunately because of the central role Brailsford has had in British cycling and how centralised that has been for the last couple of decades, that means that very few of the péloton's Britons are spared that interpretation.
I went through at great length why Sky and their riders attract more a) suspicion and b) distaste than others without recourse to nationality last year, and don't want to repeat myself any more than is necessary, but in summary I disagree with this. It's not that British riders 'don't belong', after all we don't see the same distaste to a great extent around British riders outside of the Team Sky umbrella - the Yates twins, albeit with Simon having stuck his head a little above the parapet in the Giro, or Hugh Carthy for example - and even some riders from within it who've had some reasonable success too - Ian Stannard, for example. Even Thomas himself, while he was a Classics man, attracted less attention in the Clinic for his achievement level than you might have expected.gregrowlerson said:
Now, one point that I think does need raising is that the countries you mention have much more established national calendars, amateur and espoir scenes and so forth, which means it's easier for a young rider to emerge and show the kind of results that give them that perception of credible natural talent. For example, an 18-year-old Romain Bardet was top 5 in the Tour des Pays des Savoie, a 19-year-old Mikel Landa won the Subida a Gorla, a 19-year-old Nairo Quintana was 7th in the Subida a Urkiola against seasoned pros. That kind of result is much harder for a Briton to obtain as there is very little in the way of climbing races on a very sprint-heavy British national calendar focusing on crits and TTs for them to discover such talents. As a result, transitioning to climbing on the road can often be a slower process, or require fleeing the British cycling nest, like Dan Martin did and Hugh Carthy and Dan Whitehouse too. Simon Yates won a HTF in the Tour of Britain in 2013 before turning pro, at which stage Thomas was riding the Tour with Barloworld, but with no attempt to really do anything more than survive which is fair enough at that stage (he's not Egan Bernal); the flip side of having fewer calendar races is that the globalisation drive means more chances to jump up to the pro level - a French equivalent of Russell Downing does not get to the WT in 2010, for example - and with Barloworld having a strong Anglo influence, riders who were at a lesser level than many still in the domestic scene in Italy, Spain or France were riding at the World Tour level, so some of the prospects from those nations were still developing domestically meaning they have a more instant success level when they make it to the top level rather than being visible whilst clearly not ready for a couple of years furthering the impression of them as a no-hoper (at the same time, see the mention a few weeks ago of Indurain's first couple of Vueltas, as a teenage pro-am rider). However, because of riding as a stagiare with Saunier Duval and getting an international calendar with Barloworld, it's not like Thomas didn't have the opportunity to show some climbing ability young, that might take some of the suspicion off his latter-day transformation now. You can't even argue "but he was aiming at the track back then" because Peter Kennaugh was a Team Pursuit guy too, and he was on the podium of the Girobio, including matching Richie Porte who's four years older than him on Monte Carpegna, at 20. Thomas wasn't even trying to be a climber at that point, because it was antithetical to his aims.
But that's what causes the "you don't belong" attitude. Not that they're British per se, but that they're just deciding to be a different type of rider one day, and then becoming one of the best at it. Like Laurent Jalabert after his crash with the policeman suddenly turning into a GC climber, it is a lot harder to swallow from people like Thomas and Wiggins, who have completely different specialisms that they seem perfectly built and prepared for, and then just change tack completely. Saying they had gold medals from the track can only take us so far; Joaquím Rodríguez had all the class in the world as a road cyclist, but if he took on the hour record and beat Wiggins' mark, you bet people would cry foul - because Joaquím Rodríguez was a puncheur and an explosive climber, and built accordingly, and that build was completely disadvantageous to the kind of skillset required to be a track pursuiter or time trialist, two key skills required for the Hour. It's not a claiming that Thomas was not a skilled cyclist before, because he was. He was a damned good classics man, in fact, whose propensity for crashes was the only thing that stopped him racking up a formidable palmarès because he'd frequently be super-strong in those races. However, one-day racing is a lot harder to reduce to formulae than stage races, because the longer the race, the less impact each misstep or mishap has as part of the overall whole, and the more easy it is to control as a result because if you keep it to minimal numbers of mishaps, you've got maximum available time elsewhere to compensate for it. Perhaps that's why he moved to the stage racing side of things.
Now, also, if Thomas had won the Tour in the fashion of, say, Ryder Hesjedal in the 2012 Giro, by being underestimated and hanging on in the mountains early on and taking advantage of the bonus time he got in week 1 thanks to his prior skillset, and then defended in the mountains like he's Melcior Mauri or something, or if he'd done a Giovannetti and got a big lead thanks to his Classics skills and then dropped back slowly but not quickly enough for the competition's liking in the mountains, he might have been easier to stomach. But that isn't what we saw. We saw him breathing through his nose and happily riding away from the lightweight specialist climbers, time after time. We saw him winning the queen stage on a mythical mountain by outclimbing the best. It's not that he doesn't belong because he's British. He doesn't belong, in the eyes of the sceptics, because we haven't seen him emerge after a short period of deciding what type of rider he wants to be, but instead we've seen him for a decade, we've learnt what type of rider he is, what his strengths and weaknesses are, and his current style and achievements are so completely out of line with that that it is difficult to accept.
Of course it doesn't help that he has one thing against him that hurts him more than anything else: Dave Brailsford. Thomas is a Brailsford lifer. His entire career and everything that he's achieved is linked to Brailsford. It doesn't matter that Thomas is very personable and has handled himself very well throughout this - you appear with Brailsford, suspicion is on you like white on rice. This is a point where Britain does have a perception problem, because the fact that the sport does not have the same level of grass roots and established national and amateur races that France, Spain, Belgium or Italy have means that the vast majority of their successful riders have come via some level of contact with Brailsford. But that's not a problem that leaves the implication that Britons don't belong, but rather that in the eyes of many fans it is Sky's way of doing things, with its sanitized, propagandized PR, its bludgeoning race tactics, its competition-strangling budget, and its continued charm offensive in the face of repeated examples of a complete lack of integrity, that does not belong, and unfortunately because of the central role Brailsford has had in British cycling and how centralised that has been for the last couple of decades, that means that very few of the péloton's Britons are spared that interpretation.
- Nov 7, 2010
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Re: Re:
Well, Dumoulin has figured it out as well. Which means that two unrelated, independent teams would have to have some super genius training secret - which, incidentally, ex-Sky riders can't seem to copy. I think Occam's Razor is nodding and winking quite heavily in the direction of your second option.Alpe d'Huez said:
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