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Benotti69 said:
Why JV does stuff, who knows. WhyTF did he hire Dekker? Why he did he keep quiet about Heskedal's doping till it was leaked by Rasmussen? JV plays both sides of the fence and does it with lots of joy.

Gaimon was a poor guy who wrote a book about cycling on 10bucks a day. That kind of thing gets JV juice's flowing.



Why would anyone come forward and say things are still bad? Ashenden said there are pockets of doping as bad as the epo era, the others may not be as bad as that era but riders are not competing on bread and water. I used to see Di Luca training when i lived in Italy, some days he would be on his own other times with 2 or 3 other times in a small group of 10. My guess is Di Luca knows what the Italian teams are doing through his network of former team mates. I have not heard too many bad mouthing Di Luca.



Cheating is cheating. I dont give the peloton a pass because they are not EPOing their veins off! This is a hard sport and the culture and traditions of doping dont get cast aside easily. Plenty in the past have said it is impossible to ride GTs without dope. Considering speeds have constantly risen and it is not all down to technology.



I repeat, that i dont care whether a rider is using EPO or lying to get a TUE for steroids. That is cheating. It is not acceptable to me. It seems half the peloton has asthma. Of course they do:rolleyes: that is more acceptable lying about their health. Finishing bottles is cheating in my opinion. The culture is to cheat, which means doping. That guys are only cheating a little is still crossing that line. If you are going to cross the line, it doesn't matter whether you steel 1 cent or a million euro, you stole. End of. So the peloton is not on Riis/Pantani levels of EPO, but they are doping. It is part of the fabric.



One thing that struck me about Hesjedal's Giro win was that Garmin didn't go massive on THIS IS HOW YOU WIN A GT CLEAN! and then back it up with as much information to show everyone the sport is in position that riders can win clean, but we fond out that Hesjedal's blood levels rose in the 3rd week, which JV dismissed as machine calibration error. Convenient and no other tests done to make sure that is was an error. This also happened with Wiggins 2009 TdF blood results, 3rd week rise again machine calibration error. Nothing to back up how oftent he machine facks up test results.

Ya see in this sport loads talk about things being different, but you have to sift through the talk to see if there is any substance behind it all and i dont see any substance. The so called ex dopers still win, there is little to no transparency, teams lie and get caught then come up with stupid non believable excuses and then when dopers are caught the nice guys liek O'Grady, Schleck, Ballans and others doping is ignored by the peloton.

If doping was not the cool thing, then the sport would admonish the likes of Schleck, Ballan and O'Grady to name 3 big names never mind Bertie and Piti.

Why is no one slamming Froome for posting a photo f himself with Vino an unrepentant doper?

Doping is still a major part of the sport from microdosing, hgh, steroids, and now aicar, GW1516, TB500 and who knows what else till the police bust another ring.

Remember the police/customs have been the most effective at catching doping. The Federation failed and it only recently got a new president and he seems about as anti doping as his predecessors.[/QUOTE

So much hypocrisy in one post. All over the place as usual.

You claim teams would not hire a clean rider as they wouldn't risk it, I give you an example and suddenly the line changes to who knows why JV does things. If you make a claim, at least back it up.

Yeah Di Luca has so many former team-mates still riding. You realise there are two Italian teams at WT level and most of the riders on those teams are quite young and from a different generation to Di Luca. You claim there is still team-wide doping yet it is Di Luca who is stating otherwise.

You claim any doping is doping regardless of what is done well then how can you have any respect for Kimmage, he doped, end of. Official doper. By your own standards. As you believe dopers cannot change, how can you give any credence to Kimmage or are you saying dopers can change.

So if the peloton are no longer at Riis/Pantani levels, then something must have happened to change things. As you claim anti-doping is a waste of time, I am intrigued as to what you think caused this change. Also I thought you dismissed the idea the sport was any cleaner.

Finally the culture to dope in the 80s was exactly the same and there were far less tests, no police raids, no MPCC, no OOC, no BP, no Festina, no Puerto, if you tested positive, you might get DQd for that race and pay a fine or maybe a 3 month ban if you were very unlucky and no big media hoopla about doping or testing positive, yet you believe there were clean riders capable of winning the biggest races in the world at that time. So effectively you are saying even though the culture was to dope, there were those who didn't dope yet you don't believe there are any clean riders today. Hilarious stuff.
 
Benotti69 said:
Why JV does stuff, who knows. WhyTF did he hire Dekker? Why he did he keep quiet about Heskedal's doping till it was leaked by Rasmussen? JV plays both sides of the fence and does it with lots of joy.

Gaimon was a poor guy who wrote a book about cycling on 10bucks a day. That kind of thing gets JV juice's flowing.



Why would anyone come forward and say things are still bad? Ashenden said there are pockets of doping as bad as the epo era, the others may not be as bad as that era but riders are not competing on bread and water. I used to see Di Luca training when i lived in Italy, some days he would be on his own other times with 2 or 3 other times in a small group of 10. My guess is Di Luca knows what the Italian teams are doing through his network of former team mates. I have not heard too many bad mouthing Di Luca.



Cheating is cheating. I dont give the peloton a pass because they are not EPOing their veins off! This is a hard sport and the culture and traditions of doping dont get cast aside easily. Plenty in the past have said it is impossible to ride GTs without dope. Considering speeds have constantly risen and it is not all down to technology.



I repeat, that i dont care whether a rider is using EPO or lying to get a TUE for steroids. That is cheating. It is not acceptable to me. It seems half the peloton has asthma. Of course they do:rolleyes: that is more acceptable lying about their health. Finishing bottles is cheating in my opinion. The culture is to cheat, which means doping. That guys are only cheating a little is still crossing that line. If you are going to cross the line, it doesn't matter whether you steel 1 cent or a million euro, you stole. End of. So the peloton is not on Riis/Pantani levels of EPO, but they are doping. It is part of the fabric.



One thing that struck me about Hesjedal's Giro win was that Garmin didn't go massive on THIS IS HOW YOU WIN A GT CLEAN! and then back it up with as much information to show everyone the sport is in position that riders can win clean, but we fond out that Hesjedal's blood levels rose in the 3rd week, which JV dismissed as machine calibration error. Convenient and no other tests done to make sure that is was an error. This also happened with Wiggins 2009 TdF blood results, 3rd week rise again machine calibration error. Nothing to back up how oftent he machine facks up test results.

Ya see in this sport loads talk about things being different, but you have to sift through the talk to see if there is any substance behind it all and i dont see any substance. The so called ex dopers still win, there is little to no transparency, teams lie and get caught then come up with stupid non believable excuses and then when dopers are caught the nice guys liek O'Grady, Schleck, Ballans and others doping is ignored by the peloton.

If doping was not the cool thing, then the sport would admonish the likes of Schleck, Ballan and O'Grady to name 3 big names never mind Bertie and Piti.

Why is no one slamming Froome for posting a photo f himself with Vino an unrepentant doper?

Doping is still a major part of the sport from microdosing, hgh, steroids, and now aicar, GW1516, TB500 and who knows what else till the police bust another ring.

Remember the police/customs have been the most effective at catching doping. The Federation failed and it only recently got a new president and he seems about as anti doping as his predecessors.

So much hypocrisy in one post. All over the place as usual.

You claim teams would not hire a clean rider as they wouldn't risk it, I give you an example and suddenly the line changes to who knows why JV does things. If you make a claim, at least back it up.

Yeah Di Luca has so many former team-mates still riding. You realise there are two Italian teams at WT level and most of the riders on those teams are quite young and from a different generation to Di Luca. You claim there is still team-wide doping yet it is Di Luca who is stating otherwise.

You claim any doping is doping regardless of what is done well then how can you have any respect for Kimmage, he doped, end of. Official doper. By your own standards. As you believe dopers cannot change, how can you give any credence to Kimmage or are you saying dopers can change.

So if the peloton are no longer at Riis/Pantani levels, then something must have happened to change things. As you claim anti-doping is a waste of time, I am intrigued as to what you think caused this change. Also I thought you dismissed the idea the sport was any cleaner.

Finally the culture to dope in the 80s was exactly the same and there were far less tests, no police raids, no MPCC, no OOC, no BP, no Festina, no Puerto, if you tested positive, you might get DQd for that race and pay a fine or maybe a 3 month ban if you were very unlucky and no big media hoopla about doping or testing positive, yet you believe there were clean riders capable of winning the biggest races in the world at that time. So effectively you are saying even though the culture was to dope, there were those who didn't dope yet you don't believe there are any clean riders today. Hilarious stuff.
 
May 26, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
So much hypocrisy in one post. All over the place as usual.

Just like the sport. ;)

pmcg76 said:
You claim teams would not hire a clean rider as they wouldn't risk it, I give you an example and suddenly the line changes to who knows why JV does things. If you make a claim, at least back it up.

Gaimon clean? since when? I dont believe Garmin are clean. i believe JV invested in people to devise programs that would absolutely avoid testing positive. He spent half a million a year on team testing. ;)

If you want, my claim is the sport has been proven time and time again to be dirty, now i would like to see someone back up that it changed.

pmcg76 said:
Yeah Di Luca has so many former team-mates still riding. You realise there are two Italian teams at WT level and most of the riders on those teams are quite young and from a different generation to Di Luca. You claim there is still team-wide doping yet it is Di Luca who is stating otherwise.

So if Riis sends a ride to a certain doctor in a different country that is not team doping? There 2 Italian teams, but lots of ITalian riders racing for all WT teams.

pmcg76 said:
You claim any doping is doping regardless of what is done well then how can you have any respect for Kimmage, he doped, end of. Official doper. By your own standards. As you believe dopers cannot change, how can you give any credence to Kimmage or are you saying dopers can change.

Backt o your Kimmage fixation. I do believe dopers can change, Kimmage being an example, but i dont believe dopers can change and remain in the sport.

I dont believe it is possible that all those guys who rode with USPS would while riding for Garmin look at others in the peloton and think they stood a chance riding clean while all thos eother guys are juiced! It would take huge mental ability to keep going race after race.

pmcg76 said:
So if the peloton are no longer at Riis/Pantani levels, then something must have happened to change things. As you claim anti-doping is a waste of time, I am intrigued as to what you think caused this change. Also I thought you dismissed the idea the sport was any cleaner.

Doping is doping is doping is doping is doping. Why devise the BP, to bank money for UCI could be one reason. Maybe Verbruggen thought they could extricate money from teams who were doing too much, they could also sell certain races because they could warn others their doping was too high and let others away with more doping. They are the police of the sport after all and no one to answer too. We saw it with Armstrong how lots of ex USPS tested positive after leaving.

I dont have all the answers, i post my opinions. This is a forum after all and not the committee to sort the sport.

pmcg76 said:
Finally the culture to dope in the 80s was exactly the same and there were far less tests, no police raids, no MPCC, no OOC, no BP, no Festina, no Puerto, if you tested positive, you might get DQd for that race and pay a fine or maybe a 3 month ban if you were very unlucky and no big media hoopla about doping or testing positive, yet you believe there were clean riders capable of winning the biggest races in the world at that time. So effectively you are saying even though the culture was to dope, there were those who didn't dope yet you don't believe there are any clean riders today. Hilarious stuff.

You start your post with an insult and finish it with another and you want your post to be taken seriously. Hilarious!

So all the 80s meant was doping was a free for all. Do i believe LeMond doped? No i dont and I didn't like LeMond in the 80s. But he has been too vocal and no one has leaked anything. As for others, most were caught and or implicated.

Now what stops dopers? Police? No, it didn't stop the mafia, they just got smarter or gave bigger bribes. Am I comparing like with like, ie mafia? Well Verbruggen and McQuaid were part of IOC and we know how they run that Federation and make the mafia look like small time crooks.

:)
 
Benotti69 said:
Just like the sport. ;)



Gaimon clean? since when? I dont believe Garmin are clean. i believe JV invested in people to devise programs that would absolutely avoid testing positive. He spent half a million a year on team testing. ;)

If you want, my claim is the sport has been proven time and time again to be dirty, now i would like to see someone back up that it changed.



So if Riis sends a ride to a certain doctor in a different country that is not team doping? There 2 Italian teams, but lots of ITalian riders racing for all WT teams.



Backt o your Kimmage fixation. I do believe dopers can change, Kimmage being an example, but i dont believe dopers can change and remain in the sport.

I dont believe it is possible that all those guys who rode with USPS would while riding for Garmin look at others in the peloton and think they stood a chance riding clean while all thos eother guys are juiced! It would take huge mental ability to keep going race after race.



Doping is doping is doping is doping is doping. Why devise the BP, to bank money for UCI could be one reason. Maybe Verbruggen thought they could extricate money from teams who were doing too much, they could also sell certain races because they could warn others their doping was too high and let others away with more doping. They are the police of the sport after all and no one to answer too. We saw it with Armstrong how lots of ex USPS tested positive after leaving.

I dont have all the answers, i post my opinions. This is a forum after all and not the committee to sort the sport.



You start your post with an insult and finish it with another and you want your post to be taken seriously. Hilarious!

So all the 80s meant was doping was a free for all. Do i believe LeMond doped? No i dont and I didn't like LeMond in the 80s. But he has been too vocal and no one has leaked anything. As for others, most were caught and or implicated.

Now what stops dopers? Police? No, it didn't stop the mafia, they just got smarter or gave bigger bribes. Am I comparing like with like, ie mafia? Well Verbruggen and McQuaid were part of IOC and we know how they run that Federation and make the mafia look like small time crooks.

:)

If you don't want to be called on your hypocrisies, they maybe you shouldn't be so hypocritical.

Phil Gaimon has had a reputation as a vocal anti-doping rider long before he ever joined Garmin so for you to just dismiss him as being dirty is disrespectful and uninformed. Betsy Andreu is on recored as saying Gaimon is one of the good guys.

And of course you cannot really explain why LeMond didn't dope if the culture was to dope. You just state that LeMond didn't dope. Thats not what I asked.
Face it, just because the culture is to dope doesn't mean everyone dopes, the 80s show that. There is far more restrictions in place nowadays so even if the culture is still to dope, there are far more deterrents to dope. Chances are there are more clean riders currently than there were in the 80s.
 
May 26, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
If you don't want to be called on your hypocrisies, they maybe you shouldn't be so hypocritical.

I would argue anyone who follows sport is a hypocrite.

pmcg76 said:
Phil Gaimon has had a reputation as a vocal anti-doping rider long before he ever joined Garmin so for you to just dismiss him as being dirty is disrespectful and uninformed. Betsy Andreu is on recored as saying Gaimon is one of the good guys.

Yeah I like Betsy but then again she was a friend of Armstrongs.

pmcg76 said:
And of course you cannot really explain why LeMond didn't dope if the culture was to dope. You just state that LeMond didn't dope. Thats not what I asked.
Face it, just because the culture is to dope doesn't mean everyone dopes, the 80s show that. There is far more restrictions in place nowadays so even if the culture is still to dope, there are far more deterrents to dope. Chances are there are more clean riders currently than there were in the 80s.

I love the way you twist my words to make your point. I said LeMond made a lot of people upset with his Armstrong dopes comments. If he doped it would've come out. But keep twisting it.

The restrictions are always are the horse has bolted. Sorry you cant see it.

As red flanders posted in another thread

All experience would point to the notion that what we know about is simply the tip of the iceberg, as it always is.

I am sorry you believe in miralces.....
 
Benotti69 said:
I would argue anyone who follows sport is a hypocrite.



Yeah I like Betsy but then again she was a friend of Armstrongs.



I love the way you twist my words to make your point. I said LeMond made a lot of people upset with his Armstrong dopes comments. If he doped it would've come out. But keep twisting it.

The restrictions are always are the horse has bolted. Sorry you cant see it.

As red flanders posted in another thread



I am sorry you believe in miralces.....


Holy crap but your posts are getting more and more silly.

Besty was friends with Armstrong so..............jeez I have heard it all now:eek:

You seem to have a problem with my LeMond point. I am not saying LeMond doped. I am saying in the 80s the culture was to dope, just as you claim is the case now but there were guys in the 80s who didn't dope. LeMond was the biggest but there were guys like Bauer, Mottet, Delion who had clean reputations as well and probably far more we don't know about.

Considering there are far more deterrents to doping currently, chances are there might be far more clean riders currently regardless of any culture.
 
May 26, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
Holy crap but your posts are getting more and more silly.

Besty was friends with Armstrong so..............jeez I have heard it all now:eek:

How would Besty know who is clean and who isn't? Dont use Betsy as a yardstick.

pmcg76 said:
You seem to have a problem with my LeMond point. I am not saying LeMond doped. I am saying in the 80s the culture was to dope, just as you claim is the case now but there were guys in the 80s who didn't dope. LeMond was the biggest but there were guys like Bauer, Mottet, Delion who had clean reputations as well and probably far more we don't know about.

You seem to have no problem with comparing different eras. Apples and oranges. Fignon said the PEDs in the 80s made little difference. That changed with EPO and it would appear it is still possible to manufacture GT winners in the current era. The last 2 winners would never have been considered GT contenders till they podiumed a GT from nowhere. Apples and oranges.

Can you point a decade that wasn't a culture to dope?

LeMond, Bauer, Mottet, Hampsten and Delion make up what % of the peloton? 0.5% maybe. My contention is that 99.9% dope.

pmcg76 said:
Considering there are far more deterrents to doping currently, chances are there might be far more clean riders currently regardless of any culture.

Considering UCI are not interested in catching riders doping i dont see many deterrents. Froome didn;t get test on Tenerife, neither did Nibali or Contador. Some deterrent.

Look at Armstrong's return for the will to catch dopers.
 
Benotti69 said:
How would Besty know who is clean and who isn't? Dont use Betsy as a yardstick.



You seem to have no problem with comparing different eras. Apples and oranges. Fignon said the PEDs in the 80s made little difference. That changed with EPO and it would appear it is still possible to manufacture GT winners in the current era. The last 2 winners would never have been considered GT contenders till they podiumed a GT from nowhere. Apples and oranges.

Can you point a decade that wasn't a culture to dope?

LeMond, Bauer, Mottet, Hampsten and Delion make up what % of the peloton? 0.5% maybe. My contention is that 99.9% dope.



Considering UCI are not interested in catching riders doping i dont see many deterrents. Froome didn;t get test on Tenerife, neither did Nibali or Contador. Some deterrent.

Look at Armstrong's return for the will to catch dopers.

My whole point is there has always been a culture to dope but there have always been those who didn't dope regardless of the culture. They became a very small minority with the advent of the peak EPO years 94-97 but we are not anywhere near those years now and things even seem to be slower than the early 00s period so once again, chances are there are more clean athletes in this period.

When one reads books like Rough Ride, Wide Eyed and Legless or even Slaying the Badger, it becomes obvious how amateur that period was in relation to the current era where every cyclist from amateur level up has their own personal coach. How many riders in the 80s even had coaches or tailored training programs? To me the general level of cyclist has improved significatly from the 80s, hence why things are faster than that period.

The argument here is always times are not as fast as the EPO era but far faster than the 80s. Well I would expect that to be the norm over a 25 years period but how much of that improvement is down to better athletes etc or doping is hard to state definitively.

Now its back to the circular, the UCI have no interest in catching anyone so why are riders no longer riding at peak EPO speeds if there is no interest in catching anyone. What is the deterrent to stop them doping to the max?

On LeMond, Delion etc, those riders are the only ones we know off, it's a bit like me quoting the % of riders actually testing positive as proof of cleanliness.
 
May 26, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
My whole point is there has always been a culture to dope but there have always been those who didn't dope regardless of the culture. They became a very small minority with the advent of the peak EPO years 94-97 but we are not anywhere near those years now and things even seem to be slower than the early 00s period so once again, chances are there are more clean athletes in this period.

When one reads books like Rough Ride, Wide Eyed and Legless or even Slaying the Badger, it becomes obvious how amateur that period was in relation to the current era where every cyclist from amateur level up has their own personal coach. How many riders in the 80s even had coaches or tailored training programs? To me the general level of cyclist has improved significatly from the 80s, hence why things are faster than that period.

So the culture to dope has not changed. So we do agree, just the levels we disagree on.

EPO made clean riding impossible. So why do you think that has changed back to a pre epo era where riders who have massive levels of talent can compete and win?

pmcg76 said:
The argument here is always times are not as fast as the EPO era but far faster than the 80s. Well I would expect that to be the norm over a 25 years period but how much of that improvement is down to better athletes etc or doping is hard to state definitively.

I dont agree that much has improved. Kelly talked about how his DS was very in tune with diets and keeping weight down and Kelly himself never put on more than a kilo off season.

Times are still faster than the 80s

pmcg76 said:
Now its back to the circular, the UCI have no interest in catching anyone so why are riders no longer riding at peak EPO speeds if there is no interest in catching anyone. What is the deterrent to stop them doping to the max?

UCI were in a quandary when the police busted doping and have since tried to manage the doping, but couldn't get the lid back on the can of worms that was opened in 1998.

As for doping to the max, i look at Froome and Wiggins and see guys maxing it out. Rogers talked about his best performances at Sky, this form a Tmobile guy. Contador seems to be back to 2007 levels. Piti is up there. Gilbert had an unbelievable season in 2011 a what must have been max.

pmcg76 said:
On LeMond, Delion etc, those riders are the only ones we know off, it's a bit like me quoting the % of riders actually testing positive as proof of cleanliness.

I think if more were clean we would know.

It is hard to know. I thought Moncoutie might have been clean, but raceradio called that. Is Taylor Phinney clean, he talks the clean talk but then he trains with Allen Lim in Colorado! Was Pinotti clean? He rode for doping teams, why did they hire a guy who wouldn't dope? Pinotti now works for the 'sports science' at BMC! BMC formerly phonak with Och running it and Max Testa the team doc.........

I am still of the opinion that the vast majority dope and by doping i mean crossing the line of cheating whether it is something small like lying that they have asthma to get an inhaler TUE or epo use, it is still doping.