Giant-Shimano

[gooner]

OOh yeah he really is calling them dopers isn't he.....not.



Recognise what? That Kittel didn't shoot at others in this, only the Kazakhs and their mentality, next he'll be telling us Germans never dope? Where did Kittel have a go at Kloden or Voight? Where does he have a go at Wiggins or Froome? Yet he lambasts the mentality of Kazakhs, wow Kittel a racist!

Kittel calling the kettle black, i think.

He had a go at 3 of the biggest names in the sport and one from the past to add to it. You came out with the bluster talk saying he was only interested in Sayar because he is the small guy but that has been found to be untrue. Kittel could have easily stayed quiet on any of the names he has referred to and in the case of Sayar on twitter where he had a go on his accord, it was similarly done to Contador, Samu and Indurain where he wasn't asked a question which made him respond like this. Of course, it was to be expected you wouldn't recognise it as it blows your whole argument apart.

Instead of going off with your racist talk and deflecting, why don't you address the point he made with regards to the UCI giving Astana a pro licence? Do you agree with it? How many riders have done that? In fact how many riders responded like he did when Armstrong fell?

You wanting him to call out Wiggins and Froome means you are only interested in the trophy names(it shows your agenda) and it's entirely different to the Sayar situation which has been detailed on numerous occasions on here. Torku not in the passport, needle marks spotted on arms, and a positive the previous year in Grabovsky.

 

[gooner]

Kittel did tweet about Contador(in the link you provided), but he didn't have a go at him for being a (busted) doper.

If it was total omerta with Contador and his doping, then he would have stayed quiet here. He wouldn't have said this on his own initiative.

 

[BYOP88]

If it was total omerta with Contador and his doping, then he would have stayed quiet here. He wouldn't have said this on his own initiative.

Hardly breaking 'omerta' regarding Contador by Kittel. I mean it is well known that Dirty Bertie has served a ban for doping.

The only issue I have with Kittel is that he seems to go after the soft targets(in the scheme of things, Sayar is a small fish) or people who have been busted/are no longer active in the peloton(Pharmstrong). I've yet to see him 'tweet' about guys in the peloton who are still riding and aren't easy targets and should be questioned.

 

[gooner]

Hardly breaking 'omerta' regarding Contador by Kittel. I mean it is well known that Dirty Bertie has served a ban for doping.

The only issue I have with Kittel is that he seems to go after the soft targets(in the scheme of things, Sayar is a small fish) or people who have been busted/are no longer active in the peloton(Pharmstrong). I've yet to see him 'tweet' about guys in the peloton who are still riding and aren't easy targets and should be questioned.

Isn't that the whole point? We want riders to speak out against guys who have crossed the line. It's not as if that's common in cycling. Contador was mentioned as a big name in a previous post and it was put why Kittel hasn't gone after him. How many riders have queued up to sling shots his way? Samu is a rider who hasn't served a ban either. These two are not small fish in the peloton and in the case of Contador, he has got an easy ride in comparison to the reaction of Santambrogio's positive. Indurain turns up to races still getting eulogised to this very day. Look at the Champs Elysees podium in last year's Tour for a quick reminder. Off the top of my head, I can only think of maybe Gustav Larsson outside of Kittel who gave some sort of reaction that was welcomed at the time of Armstrong's downfall. Even at that, it wasn't to the same level that Kittel went to.

Regarding Sayar, the reasons have been mentioned on numerous occasions why riders were sceptical of his performances in Turkey.

I think there's something hypocritical of guys behind a laptop wanting riders to call out others based entirely on suspicion when they probably wouldn't have the ***** to do it themselves if they were in the same position. As if it's as easy as that.

Wanting riders to speak out against guys who are busted is one thing, wanting riders to speak out merely on suspicion alone is an entirely different matter altogether.

 

[42x16ss]

I wonder who this "famous" trainer is any why Kittel is training with him.

Arent the Ferrari and Leinders types usually working with the gc guys?

Not always, Cipo was a Ferrari client. Sprinters just use a slightly different programme.

Edit: What DW said

 

[BYOP88]

Isn't that the whole point? We want riders to speak out against guys who have crossed the line. It's not as if that's common in cycling. Contador was mentioned as a big name in a previous post and it was put why Kittel hasn't gone after him. How many riders have queued up to sling shots his way? Samu is a rider who hasn't served a ban either. These two are not small fish in the peloton and in the case of Contador, he has got an easy ride in comparison to the reaction of Santambrogio's positive. Indurain turns up to races still getting eulogised to this very day. Look at the Champs Elysees podium in last year's Tour for a quick reminder. Off the top of my head, I can only think of maybe Gustav Larsson outside of Kittel who gave some sort of reaction that was welcomed at the time of Armstrong's downfall. Even at that, it wasn't to the same level that Kittel went to.

Regarding Sayar, the reasons have been mentioned on numerous occasions why riders were sceptical of his performances in Turkey.

I think there's something hypocritical of guys behind a laptop wanting riders to call out others based entirely on suspicion when they probably wouldn't have the ***** to do it themselves if they were in the same position. As if it's as easy as that.

Wanting riders to speak out against guys who are busted is one thing, wanting riders to speak out merely on suspicion alone is an entirely different matter altogether.

So they can call a rider out because they were sceptical of his performances but they can't call a rider out based entirely on suspicion?

 

[gooner]

So they can call a rider out because they were sceptical of his performances but they can't call a rider out based entirely on suspicion?

Sceptical for the reasons mentioned with regards to Sayar and not for performance alone which was meant in relation to riders calling out others based on suspicion. I made that clear above.

Elmati might have been the day that Kittel reacted to but Seeldrayers said to Shane Stokes he wasn't surprised one bit to see Sayar do what he did. Afterwards the story of riders spotting needle marks on his hands came out. Kittel's comment wasn't done on some sort of whim just for the good of his health on the back of one performance. There was added reason to it.

No passport at that level is a big thing. Hence why Dan Martin probably highlighted the no testing in the races that JTL won and why in the l'Equipe article it was mentioned there were many riders that were questioning him. Even though Pourseyedi has a previous positive, his performances in Langkawi were under intense scrutiny due to not being involved in the passport either.

What's happening here with Kittel is the same as what happened when Matt Brammeier had a go at Pourseyedi when he won a different race and people said it was an easy target. Yet it has been forgotten he didn't hold back against Frank Schleck after his positive.

It's trophy name chasing.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

needle marks spotted on arms

Marcel has no trouble spotting those I guess.

Still, the Turk got busted at the Tour d'Algérie.

 

[JimmyFingers]

You would have thought Kittel's outspoken anti-doping talk and calling out a suspicious rider who subsequently got pinged who earn praise her, the fact instead he is accused of racism by posters, and indeed accused of dopng himself, here demonstrates their agenda, which isn't pure anti-doping, more selective anti-doping. Mainly it seems the Anglo riders, the ones you like the least. For shame really.

For one although I don't like watching Kittel win, and I am convinced he is a deer I can believe in. I see very few riders talking in such unambiguous terms. He says and does what people interested in the sport cleaning up should want a rider to, instead he gets criticised for it. Poor show.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

I believe Kittel is dirty
Therefore I believe he is extremely hypocritical when calling out others, and only does this to polish his image by picking on easy targets, instead of truly being anti doping
I may of course be wrong (probably not though) but it's obviously a possibility
I'm not buying the 'the best in the world are clean and dominate, only third rate riders dope' narrative

 

[JimmyFingers]

So basically if you're good, you dope, if you're bad you dope, if you call out riders you're doping, if you keep quiet you're doping. If you are a Northern European and you dope it's worse than if you were from the south, and if you call out a Southern European, you're a racist. But it's not racist for posters her to as prejudicial things about Anglos.

This place is nuts, debate here is pointless.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

I never said any of those things, nor do I get what anglo's have to do with Kittel

Do you disagree with my statement that any rider, even the dirtiest of the bunch, can call out easy targets like Sayar, Ricco, Santambrogio, Armstrong (now) and criticise others for not criticising Armstrong?
It's an easy way to give yourself a "clean image" without doing any attempt at actually proving YOU are clean

A German crusader against doping should at least call out Klöden and Voigt as was mentioned here earlier
You don't have to be a crusader to be clean though
Kittel's comments simply do nothing to convince me that he's clean
Based on cycling's history, the presumption that all riders dope seems pretty valid
Might be nice if cyclists would acknowledge that there are reasons for scepsis.

 

[happychappy]

So basically if you're good, you dope, if you're bad you dope, if you call out riders you're doping, if you keep quiet you're doping. If you are a Northern European and you dope it's worse than if you were from the south, and if you call out a Southern European, you're a racist. But it's not racist for posters her to as prejudicial things about Anglos.

This place is nuts, debate here is pointless.

Now you're getting it!

 

[Benotti69]

He had a go at 3 of the biggest names in the sport and one from the past to add to it. You came out with the bluster talk saying he was only interested in Sayar because he is the small guy but that has been found to be untrue. Kittel could have easily stayed quiet on any of the names he has referred to and in the case of Sayar on twitter where he had a go on his accord, it was similarly done to Contador, Samu and Indurain where he wasn't asked a question which made him respond like this. Of course, it was to be expected you wouldn't recognise it as it blows your whole argument apart.

Instead of going off with your racist talk and deflecting, why don't you address the point he made with regards to the UCI giving Astana a pro licence? Do you agree with it? How many riders have done that? In fact how many riders responded like he did when Armstrong fell?

You wanting him to call out Wiggins and Froome means you are only interested in the trophy names(it shows your agenda) and it's entirely different to the Sayar situation which has been detailed on numerous occasions on here. Torku not in the passport, needle marks spotted on arms, and a positive the previous year in Grabovsky.

Sorry Gooner but you are obfuscating. Kittel didn''t call anyone dopers but Sayar.

Be consistent or shut up. If you dont go for the top guys then then you are being a bully going for the small fry.

Why is Kittel not shouting about a Froome? Froome was zigzaging up climbs, hanging onto motorbikes and no one was mentioning GT winner. Yet Kittel says nothing, hypocrite!

You see Kittels sprint in Dublin. Unbelievable!

 

[Avoriaz]

Sorry Gooner but you are obfuscating. Kittel didn''t call anyone dopers but Sayar.

Be consistent or shut up. If you dont go for the top guys then then you are being a bully going for the small fry.

Why is Kittel not shouting about a Froome? Froome was zigzaging up climbs, hanging onto motorbikes and no one was mentioning GT winner. Yet Kittel says nothing, hypocrite!

You see Kittels sprint in Dublin. Unbelievable!

So you don't like omerta, but when someone speaks out it is bullying. Is there anything you do like? Maybe he hasn't spoken out against Froome because he doesn't think/suspect/know he is doping?

 

[King Boonen]

This thread is all kinds of awesome. Unless a rider calls out Froome he's doping seems to be pretty much the feeling here.


Maybe Kittel only called out Sayar because that is the only rider he is certain about?

Maybe he has suspicions about Froome, but he's a very high profile rider and making baseless accusations in any line of work can put you in very hot water. It's unfair to expect the same outspoken-ness from professional riders as you get from us anonymous forum users, and frankly it's a little naive.

 

[Benotti69]

This thread is all kinds of awesome. Unless a rider calls out Froome he's doping seems to be pretty much the feeling here.

Froome is given as an example of obvious improvement that points to doping.

Maybe Kittel only called out Sayar because that is the only rider he is certain about?

He had no qualms calling out Sayar without a positive. How does that make Kittel certain?

Maybe he has suspicions about Froome, but he's a very high profile rider and making baseless accusations in any line of work can put you in very hot water. It's unfair to expect the same outspoken-ness from professional riders as you get from us anonymous forum users, and frankly it's a little naive.

It is hypocritical to call out 1 and not all. Kittel could call on Froome/Sky to release his numbers for his whole career. But no go after a little guy like Sayar! Hypocrite.

Kittel could've said something about a 42 year old winning a GT! Nope silence? Kittel could say something about what was written in Hamilton's book about Riis, nope silence.

Hypocrite.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I never said any of those things, nor do I get what anglo's have to do with Kittel

Do you disagree with my statement that any rider, even the dirtiest of the bunch, can call out easy targets like Sayar, Ricco, Santambrogio, Armstrong (now) and criticise others for not criticising Armstrong?
It's an easy way to give yourself a "clean image" without doing any attempt at actually proving YOU are clean

A German crusader against doping should at least call out Klöden and Voigt as was mentioned here earlier
You don't have to be a crusader to be clean though
Kittel's comments simply do nothing to convince me that he's clean
Based on cycling's history, the presumption that all riders dope seems pretty valid
Might be nice if cyclists would acknowledge that there are reasons for scepsis.

It was a summation of how generally certain posters here have treated Kittel. Go search for the Kittel thread discussing his tweet about Sayer, it is eye-opening stuff. As for the anglo part, you got me, but in that thread it was suggested he was part of some anglo alliance/conspiracy by picking on the 'little guy', the home rider trying to do his best in his home race being picked on by ze German when Kittel should have been calling out Sky.

As for the rest, you are welcome to your opinion, and it does have validity. Personally he's one of the riders I trust the most, mainly because of what he did with Sayer. If you're a doper and you're calling out dopers then you are going to make a lot of enemies, and there would be reprisals. Of course I don't know, its a gut feeling as much as anything, but I never go for the performance as proof.

 

[King Boonen]

Froome is given as an example of obvious improvement that points to doping.



He had no qualms calling out Sayar without a positive. How does that make Kittel certain?



It is hypocritical to call out 1 and not all. Kittel could call on Froome/Sky to release his numbers for his whole career. But no go after a little guy like Sayar! Hypocrite.

Kittel could've said something about a 42 year old winning a GT! Nope silence? Kittel could say something about what was written in Hamilton's book about Riis, nope silence.

Hypocrite.

Maybe he saw the needle marks, I don't know, I'm not a mind reader. Expecting him to call out people on hunches is ridiculous and that's all there is against Froome/Sky, Horner etc. I think Froome is doping, you do, most people in here do, but it's of little consequence to us if we state that. It can have a massive effect on Kittel's future and it is naive to expect him to voice an opinion on people just because the clinic thinks they are doping.

Kittel called out someone who it was later proved was doping, he should only be applauded for that. If it comes out Froome is doping and Kittel says he knew all along, then he can be called a hypocrite.

 

[King Boonen]

It was a summation of how generally certain posters here have treated Kittel. Go search for the Kittel thread discussing his tweet about Sayer, it is eye-opening stuff. As for the anglo part, you got me, but in that thread it was suggested he was part of some anglo alliance/conspiracy by picking on the 'little guy', the home rider trying to do his best in his home race being picked on by ze German when Kittel should have been calling out Sky.

I seem to remember it was accusations of white-northern Europeans only calling out southern Europeans with different skin colour, but I'll have to check. It was utterly ridiculous whatever it was and the continuation is just people trying to justify their own obvious bias.

He called out someone as a doper before they were proved to be a doper. They have since failed a doping test. The fact people are trying to put a negative spin on that is, frankly, mind-boggling.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I seem to remember it was accusations of white-northern Europeans only calling out southern Europeans with different skin colour, but I'll have to check. It was utterly ridiculous whatever it was and the continuation is just people trying to justify their own obvious bias.

He called out someone as a doper before they were proved to be a doper. They have since failed a doping test. The fact people are trying to put a negative spin on that is, frankly, mind-boggling.

Those are the facts, and I agree whole-heartedly. He did what we want riders to do: call out riders they think or know are doping, and shatter omerta. Yet because he didn;t pick a clinic approved target, he was turned on and it was vicious, and Benotti is proving that this continues by calling him a hypocrite.

 

[Benotti69]

Maybe he saw the needle marks, I don't know, I'm not a mind reader.

Apparently Kittel can read the minds of the little guys. Needle marks need not only be doping, can be testing, could be explained by TUEs who knows and if Kittel is going to jump on needle marks well what about Wiggins with a pill in his shorts?

Expecting him to call out people on hunches is ridiculous and that's all there is against Froome/Sky, Horner etc. I think Froome is doping, you do, most people in here do, but it's of little consequence to us if we state that. It can have a massive effect on Kittel's future and it is naive to expect him to voice an opinion on people just because the clinic thinks they are doping.

I dont expect Kittel to call any out, especially when he is invlolved in blood spinning. But when you call someone out you better be consistent with it! Kittel isn't.

Kittel called out someone who it was later proved was doping, he should only be applauded for that. If it comes out Froome is doping and Kittel says he knew all along, then he can be called a hypocrite.

Kittel is a hypocrite for not calling out others like Froome who have come from nowhere and are not transparent when called to be transparent by releasing numbers.

 

[Benotti69]

He called out someone as a doper before they were proved to be a doper. They have since failed a doping test. The fact people are trying to put a negative spin on that is, frankly, mind-boggling.

So, we in the clinic who call out people all the time are to be appluaded like Kittel.

Kittel was lucky Sayar was such a muppet. But what about Horner, dont tell me Kittel believes Horner won the Vuelta clean at 42?

Kittel calling out Sayar with hindsight was like shooting fish in a barrel!

 

[King Boonen]

So, we in the clinic who call out people all the time are to be appluaded like Kittel.

Kittel was lucky Sayar was such a muppet. But what about Horner, dont tell me Kittel believes Horner won the Vuelta clean at 42?

Kittel calling out Sayar with hindsight was like shooting fish in a barrel!

When you make logical arguments backed up with analysis and what facts are available, yes, you are to be applauded. You are drawing attention to the darkside of a sport you love when most fans of other sports would prefer to stick their head in the sand.

It doesn't matter what he believes, it's what he knows. And it seems logical that Kittel knew Sayar was doping. How, I don't know.

Hindsight? Didn't Kittel's tweet come immediately after the stage finish?

 

[Benotti69]

When you make logical arguments backed up with analysis and what facts are available, yes, you are to be applauded. You are drawing attention to the darkside of a sport you love when most fans of other sports would prefer to stick their head in the sand.

It doesn't matter what he believes, it's what he knows. And it seems logical that Kittel knew Sayar was doping. How, I don't know.

Hindsight? Didn't Kittel's tweet come immediately after the stage finish?

Kittel calling out Sayar, with hindsight, was like shooting fish in a barrel!

No I dont think Kittel could have known Sayar was doping without proof, but like the clinic, saw a performance that was unbelivable* and called it, rightly in this case.

But people have been calling Di Luca a doper and proven right. Samtambrogio was called by the clinicians during the Giro last year and proven right. Shooting fish in a barrel.

*Unbelievable, bit like Kittel's sprint in Dublin.