Gilbert V Cancellara - who is the best one day rider of this generation?

[The Hitch]

Firstly, what exactly do you count as monuments here, it seems only Milan-San Remo, Flanders and Roubaix count for you. I hate to break it to you but L-B-L, Fleche Wallone, Lombardy and Paris-Tours are all monuments too so Gilbert has more. As was pointed out already under the old World Cup format, Gilbert would have won it many times already, Cancellara not so much.

How is a 50km solo better than 3 monuments, next you will be saying Hinault was a better classics rider than Kelly because he won an epic L-B-L by almost 10 minutes in freezing conditions where he lost power in his little finger.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monumento_(ciclismo)
http://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monumente_des_Radsports
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classique_(cyclisme)#Les_monuments
http://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monumentu_(txirrindularitza)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_cycle_races#The_.27Monuments.27

As for the world cup, what years would Gilbert have won it? 2011, 2010? 2009 2008?

 

[Flamin]

Let's not underestimate Gilbert's strength that day.
When the Schlecks went everyone else was already in the red and could not react.

Still Gilbert did react slowly, not even coming out of the saddle. Can you imagine that? Can you imagine being forced to watch the #1 marked man just riding away not even exerting himself with you being powerless to stop him?

Gilbert simply plays his cards better than Cancellara, why would he ride away if he could just demoralize the Schlecks completely by attacking himself?
Gilbert was simply toying with the Schlecks that day, Cancellara as it would seem cannot play the game.

Gilbert was the strongest guy in the race, no doubt, although the Schleck were just happy with 2nd and 3rd place that day. Andy closed the gap when his own brother attacked, with Gilbert on his wheel. I mean, you for real? So I can't really give the credit to Gilbert for playing his cards better thb.

Remember 2010 LBL? Gilbert probably was the strongest guy in the race too, yet he didn't win. Why? Because there was Valverde, who wasn't prepared to equally share the work load (iirc Evans complained about that after the race), which obviously was a negative on the cohesion and thus they didn't catch Vino and Kolobnev, albeit 3 vs 2.

The same thing might occur in the upcoming Ardennes week.

 

[El Pistolero]

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/monumento_(ciclismo)
http://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/monumente_des_radsports
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/classique_(cyclisme)#les_monuments
http://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/monumentu_(txirrindularitza)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/classic_cycle_races#the_.27monuments.27

as for the world cup, what years would gilbert have won it? 2011, 2010? 2009 2008?

2009-2011.

Anyway, it's a little bit respectless to just look at Monuments and ignore everything else(Flamin).

Gilbert:

Lombardia 2009, 2010
LBL 2011
FW 2011
AGR 2010, 2011
CSS 2011
Paris-Tours 2008, 2009
Omloop het Volk 2006, 2008

Cancellara:

Roubaix 2006, 2010
Ronde 2010
MSR 2008
E3 Prijs Harelbeke 2010, 2011

Boonen:

Roubaix 2005, 2008, 2009
Ronde 2005, 2006
World Championship 2005
Gent-Wevelgem 2004, 2011
E3 Prijs Vlaanderen 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007

 

[Flamin]

How is a 50km solo better than 3 monuments, next you will be saying Hinault was a better classics rider than Kelly because he won an epic L-B-L by almost 10 minutes in freezing conditions where he lost power in his little finger.

I didn't say Cancellara is a better one-day rider ONLY because of his 50km solo. I said, this, AND the fact that he has 4 monuments under his belt.

Yes, I obviously take into account how those monuments have been won. Don't you? Therefore, Cancellara clearly wins this 'battle' for me.

 

[El Pistolero]

What was wrong with Gilbert's Lombardia win in 2010? He was solo for most of the time. Gilbert can count on his sprint, just like Boonen, so he doesn't have to go solo really. You're not a better one day racer because you win solo. A good sprint would be a far better weapon for a one day racer actually.

 

[Flamin]

What was wrong with Gilbert's Lombardia win in 2010? He was solo for most of the time.

Nothing wrong with that. Great performance. Why? I just rate Cancellara's wins more, that's it.

 

[Echoes]

How is a 50km solo better than 3 monuments, next you will be saying Hinault was a better classics rider than Kelly because he won an epic L-B-L by almost 10 minutes in freezing conditions where he lost power in his little finger.

Perhaps he won't say that but I'm saying it. Hinault was a better classic rider than Kelly was.

Whenever Hinault got to the classics, he was feared and fearsome. He had the power, he made the race and if you gave him 5 meters, you'd never see him again. Exactly like Cancellara.

Ask De Vlaeminck !

The problem is that Hinault wasn't Merckx. He never trained in winter and never was interested in anything before the Ardennes classics. He never even won Paris-Nice.

 

[r_mutt]

Perhaps he won't say that but I'm saying it. Hinault was a better classic rider than Kelly was.

there are 13 riders with more Classic's wins than Hinault while Kelly is 3rd on the all time list. potential to be better doesn't mean anything. results are what count. i'd rather have 14 million dollars in my bank account rather than the potential to make 40 million but never actually do it.

 

[FabulousCandelabra]

Who is the most exciting to watch by a landslide, Fabian... results are boring. Cavendish is a great rider, but I don't want to watch him race.

 

[El Pistolero]

Still think Boonen shouldn't be included? He won, after all, 2 classics already. Yep, I'm calling the E3 Harelbeke a classic now

 

[spalco]

2009 WRR. Canc's performance there was unbelievable and on a climbers course with the worlds best climbers he was far and away the strongest.

Yeah, this is a bit intangible, and of course in the end what counts is the win, but Cancellara has a lot of those races where even if he doesn't place very high, he was still a game-changing force in the race. That sort of thing is hard to quantify and it's barely a footnote on a palmares as spectacular as his, if even that, but it's something that etches into the memory of a fan.

Right now I think it's Cancellara by a mile, but I could see it being a lot closer or even changing in a couple years.

 

[ooh_25mm]

Still think Boonen shouldn't be included? He won, after all, 2 classics already. Yep, I'm calling the E3 Harelbeke a classic now

I came here to say this. Boonen looks great and has amazing power and speed after 200Kms+. I'm happy to see him back.

Who knows, based on the the way he was climbing at Paris-Nice maybe we should start including Boonen in the discussion about winning all five monuments

 

[Angliru]

+1 Agree

I think Gilbert can and has contended in most of the classics bar Paris-Roubaix. He has been up there in M-SR, Flanders, F-W, L-B-L, AMR, Paris-Tours, Lombardy, even San Sebastian. He would have dominated the old World Cup.

Cancellara is equally as strong, more so on cobbles but seems to have less variation in his palmares, I actually believe he could well in races outside of the cobbled classics and M-SR but chooses not to.

Slight edge to Gilbert.

I think it's because of the team or teams that he's ridden on. The Ardennes and GdL are reseverved for the Schleck's, well GdL for Frank. Were he on a different team I'd like to think that he would pursue results in these events too.

 

[Angliru]

Is it? I am basically just asking who do you think will get better one day results this year?
If you get better results it generally means you are a better rider.

....or given/pursue more opportunities for results.

 

[Angliru]

And what has that got to do with - who is the best one day rider of this generation?


Not who has the best palmares. Who is the best

Boonen and Freire has to be in the equation if we are to respond to the question as it was worded.

 

[Angliru]

Not this generation
Edit: The title should really be from 2009+ as Gilbert wasnt really a force before and this generation is probably more applicable for such a time period.

How are you going to attempt, with a straight face, to alter the intent in the OP's thread to support your argument? The OP said of "this generation". So it's your argument that this generation spans from when Gilbert found his mo-jo (no clinic reference intended) to now?

 

[Angliru]

You're going to feel stupid when Boonen wins the Ronde and Roubaix this year

I'm hoping he does.

 

[Froome19]

How are you going to attempt, with a straight face, to alter the intent in the OP's thread to support your argument? The OP said of "this generation". So it's your argument that this generation spans from when Gilbert found his mo-jo (no clinic reference intended) to now?

This may sound silly but I am the OP so I was suggesting that my title I gave to this thread was referring to when the 2 riders have both been at their peaks, which i would have found obvious but it seems like others didnt so i was just assuring what i meant.

 

[Angliru]

This may sound silly but I am the OP so I was suggesting that my title I gave to this thread was referring to when the 2 riders have both been at their peaks, which i would have found obvious but it seems like others didnt so i was just assuring what i meant.

A generation doesn't conveniently begin when a particular rider starts to find his groove. I agree that maybe the wording should've been changed only if it was your intent to ensure the discussion favored a particular rider.

 

[spalco]

This may sound silly but I am the OP so I was suggesting that my title I gave to this thread was referring to when the 2 riders have both been at their peaks, which i would have found obvious but it seems like others didnt so i was just assuring what i meant.

They hardly compete against each other specifically, so I don't see how discounting part of Cancellara's career makes your point any stronger.

 

[Karl Max]

Over time Cancellara have so far much better results than Gilbert. So I would rate Cancellara as the best one of them overall. But last season from Gilbert was incredible, and probably he will never have a season like that again. But I think Gilbert is smarter rider than Cancellara. Cancellara is riding like a headless chicken in many races and if he played his card diffrently he would have got more wins instead of all the podium places. But then again is easy for me to say I am just a amature watching, in the heat of the moment you just have to make choices but overall it does not seem like he is the best poker player in the game.

 

[Ragerod]

This may sound silly but I am the OP so I was suggesting that my title I gave to this thread was referring to when the 2 riders have both been at their peaks, which i would have found obvious but it seems like others didnt so i was just assuring what i meant.

Just say you misspelt Boonen as Gilbert.

 

[Angliru]

They hardly compete against each other specifically, so I don't see how discounting part of Cancellara's career makes your point any stronger.

He's the OP and according to him he can alter the course of the conversation when he sees it hasn't met his hoped for result.

 

[Froome19]

They hardly compete against each other specifically, so I don't see how discounting part of Cancellara's career makes your point any stronger.

Its irrelevant when they do/dont compete against each other, I was just trying to make the point that I was comparing these 2 riders when their careers have peaked which do coincide more or less.
If you are comparing these 2 riders then are you going to compare gilbert before 2009 to Cancellara before 2006?
Its totally irrelevant their previous years its only when theyre at theyre peak that you can truly compare them and I would assume that that is when most people compare them.
So it would be most logical to compare them both when theyre simultaneuosly at their peaks.... Of course maybe thats just me........

Just say you misspelt Boonen as Gilbert.

Why would I do that?
I have a slight feeling that Gilbert will perform better in the classics this year than Boonen will.....

 

[spalco]

If you are comparing these 2 riders then are you going to compare gilbert before 2009 to Cancellara before 2006?

No, I would be comparing each rider's entire career.

eta: and Cancellara had already "peaked" earlier than 2009. The fact that Gilbert doesn't have many results back then, doesn't make Cancellara's wins less valuable.