Giro d'Italia 2017 STAGE 21: Monza – Milano 29.3 km ITT

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

The 2015 World Championship Time Trials also come to mind. Kiriyenka pulled off a major upset and was joined in the podium by Malori and Coppel. Finishing 4-7: Castroviejo, Dumoulin, Dennis, Tony Martin.

Kiriyenka was seen as a darkhorse contender but that's a sick field he beat.

I thought he wanted a GC fight.
If I misunderstood and we're going with single day tts, the first ever World TT championships had an amazing field with many brilliant time trialists, all the world's best other than Indurain and Rominger. Berzin, Olano, Breukink, Marie, Jaskula, Zulle, Mauri, among others.

Bafflingly they all lost several minutes.

The podium consisted of Boardman who wasn't that great at those long distances, an italian domestique not renowned as a time trialist and a 20 year old stagiaire Ullrich who was still a couple of years away from doing anything in a TT

That is weird. Did the weather do something odd? Or was it about a lot of the big guns being out of form?

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

On another note: The strength of the Sky squad effected the race in an important way even though they weren't GC relevant and weren't doing their train. On a number of stages, Movistar (or Bahrain) riders went up the road to be stepping stones but were actually useless when they were caught. Quite a lot of that was down to Rosa, Deignan, Kiryienka etc absolutely ripping the legs off most people in the big breakaways.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

The 2015 World Championship Time Trials also come to mind. Kiriyenka pulled off a major upset and was joined in the podium by Malori and Coppel. Finishing 4-7: Castroviejo, Dumoulin, Dennis, Tony Martin.

Kiriyenka was seen as a darkhorse contender but that's a sick field he beat.

I thought he wanted a GC fight.
If I misunderstood and we're going with single day tts, the first ever World TT championships had an amazing field with many brilliant time trialists, all the world's best other than Indurain and Rominger. Berzin, Olano, Breukink, Marie, Jaskula, Zulle, Mauri, among others.

Bafflingly they all lost several minutes.

The podium consisted of Boardman who wasn't that great at those long distances, an italian domestique not renowned as a time trialist and a 20 year old stagiaire Ullrich who was still a couple of years away from doing anything in a TT

That is weird. Did the weather do something odd? Or was it about a lot of the big guns being out of form?

I really don't know

 

[Chomsky]

I dislike the modern tour format. There should be a minimum of a 100kms of ITT in a grand tour. A guy who is not talented all around, like Quintana, should never be allowed to compete for GC in a grand Tour.

 

[DanielSong39]

Bob Jungles, Jos van Emden, and Vasil Kiriyenka are being given a mathematical chance of winning the stage.

Interesting.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

I dislike the modern tour format. There should be a minimum of a 100kms of ITT in a grand tour. A guy who is not talented all around, like Quintana, should never be allowed to compete for GC in a grand Tour.

I like the fact that they chop and change. The less team trials the better and they should be kept short anyway. But I agree that the TT has been downgraded to what it used to be. If they have so many MTFs why shouldn't they have extra ITT kms ? Often I enjoy the medium stages more than the MTFs because there is more action over the entire stage especially on difficult courses. The short stages have become a novelty and it seems that the longer old time stages with multiple big climbs don't come along as often now. Maybe the organizers think that such difficult stages are too long now and make for negative racing until the last climb. Pure climbers have won GTs in the past and some of them were probably worse in the TT than Quintana but back then the mountain stages were often longer and harder so there were more opportunities. GTs are set up for all rounders anyway so the fact that Quintana is winning some and making multiple podiums shows that he probably couldn't do much better unless he made a sudden leap in his TT which is unlikely now.

 

[msjett]

I am not sure I will get to watch the full stage today, but I don't feel 100% sure that either Quintana or Dumoulin will win. Both have to have the best TT possible, and for the others to be mediocre...I guess its all to play for with the top 5 riders.
And anyway, I would like to see Nibali win...

 

[DanielSong39]

FYI, Alberto Contador went from being ITT fodder to smashing them between 2007 and 2008, so anything is possible. With that said, unless Quintana improves his ITT he is more likely to have a Sastre/Andy Schleck career than a Contador/Froome career.

Then again Sastre won a Tour de France with the ITT of his life and Schleck "won" a Tour de France so Quintana shouldn't give up completely.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re: Re:

Pinot would be great but it's not going to happen with that gap.

Such a boring result that someone can dominate time trials and hang on in the mountains to win a Grand Tour. Too many TT kms

Que?

Dumoulin won a mountain stage. He took more time there on Pinot then Pinot took today... And Dumoulin finished the toughest climb of the Giro together with Pinot.

If people don't like Dumoulin that's perfectly fine, but let's not rewrite history and act like Dumoulin was hanging on for dear life for 3 weeks whenever the road went uphill and he's only winning because of the TT.

Poopgate cost him his first ITT advantage and he's still within a minute of the lead after a brutal 3rd week...

This x 1000.

 

[Chomsky]

Anyone know where I can find the results at the 1st time check of stage 10?

 

[gregrowlerson]

Two great posts back to back .

Indeed it was

And this, like grand tour stages, is rather rare

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re:

I actually think Nibali will take the pink tomorrow

Yes, it would be his greatest use of voodoo yet!

I don't think that he deserves a third Giro, but it would be funny to see, just for the outrage on the forum.

By the way, anyone think that Pozzovivo has any chance at the podium? Has he never done any sort of a decent performance in a time trial such as this before? He is not exactly a huge amount of time behind; is it not possible that he could defeat Nibali, Pinot and Zakarin by the required amounts?

 

[staubsauger]

Re:

FYI, Alberto Contador went from being ITT fodder to smashing them between 2007 and 2008, so anything is possible. With that said, unless Quintana improves his ITT he is more likely to have a Sastre/Andy Schleck career than a Contador/Froome career.

Then again Sastre won a Tour de France with the ITT of his life and Schleck "won" a Tour de France so Quintana shouldn't give up completely.

Contador was a Spanish itt junior champion and his tt was always excellent for a climber. He already was faster than Leipheimer in the first 2007 TdF tt and basically won the 2008 Giro in the tt's.

He began smoking in 2009.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

FYI, Alberto Contador went from being ITT fodder to smashing them between 2007 and 2008, so anything is possible. With that said, unless Quintana improves his ITT he is more likely to have a Sastre/Andy Schleck career than a Contador/Froome career.

Then again Sastre won a Tour de France with the ITT of his life and Schleck "won" a Tour de France so Quintana shouldn't give up completely.

Contador was a Spanish itt junior champion and his tt was always excellent for a climber. He already was faster than Leipheimer in the first 2007 TdF tt and basically won the 2008 Giro in the tt's.

He began smoking in 2009.

And Quintana's TT is the best for a climber of his size. In his weight category, he's the best.
Contador is his weight category might not be the best.

 

[Tank Engine]

I agree with Tonton on the final order
1- Tom D
2 - Stoneface
3 - The Shark
4 - Pinot Noir
5 - Zakarin

but I hope Thibaut gets onto the podium.

As for the stage itself, watch out for Białobłocki who beat Kiri in a similar TT in Poland a couple of years ago. He learned his trade going up and down UK dual carriageways on Sunday mornings, so this should be right up his street.

 

[search]

Re:

Anyone know where I can find the results at the 1st time check of stage 10?

http://06.live-radsport.ch/details_210710/Giro_d%E2%80%99Italia__Etappe_10.html

 

[Velolover2]

Re:

I dislike the modern tour format. There should be a minimum of a 100kms of ITT in a grand tour. A guy who is not talented all around, like Quintana, should never be allowed to compete for GC in a grand Tour.

I like it's ok that the Vuelta doesn't have a TT/have less TT, the three Grand Tours should be different. The goats target the Vuelta for a reason.

But the Giro and Tour should have at least 100km of TT as you said.

One flat, one hilly and a mountain time trial is the perfect formula.

 

[rick james]

Re:

The reason Dumoulin won isn't because of too many ITT km; it's because Quintana performed well below his best in the mountains and in the ITTs.

Quintana was still better than he was in the 2015 Vuelta but not any better than he was in the 2016 Tour.

Even with the 2016 Vuelta form he enters the final TT with a 3+ minute lead and Dumoulin would be further back.

Again we don't know that, this is Nairos level

 

[Ataraxus]

70 km of ITT is less than what would be considered enough ITT. I wouldn't say, as many state, that 100 km is the magic number, but seriously, 70 km, if nothing else, is not enough. My $0.02.

Even considering what kind of rider most GC riders are nowadays? There are so few GC riders who are all-rounders now that making a 100km TT Grand Tour is handing the race to a Froome, Dumoulin, Porte.. The rest are climbers who can do a 'quite good' time trial.

GTs should be designed to give maximum excitement, and if that means designing for the majority of GC riders to fight on, then so be it.

You have the causality inverted. There aren't so few TT kms by historical standards because there's a lack of all-rounders competing for GC; rather there are a lack of all-rounders because there's a ridiculous low number of TT kms in today's GT designs.

A climbing specialist winning multiple GTs has nothing to do with the history of cycling - that type should be able to win on occasion: Van Impe, Bahamontes and Herrera won 1 each and that's perfectly fine. On the other hand, together they won like 30 KoMs classifications, which is what makes sense. I for one thin that pedestrian all around GC riders (pedestrian as all-rounders, as in specialists), who manage to lose time on finals on descents, and on flat stages, who struggle mighty on crosswinds, cobbles, time-trialling, lack punch and basically are only good on high-mountains (and even there, only truly dominating on some specific type of stages) shouldnt' be top 3 favourites on every GT they enter. It's dreadful and boring and as long as those riders have strong teams and there's only symbolic TT kms, the GT gets reduced to a couple of high.mountain stages they target to pedal hard. Imagine if it had always been like that, how different would be cycling history - we wouldn't even had a Bartali-Coppi rivalry. Plus, with ITT below a certain threshold, teams gain a disproportionate importance.

Sure, design GTs that type of rider can win. But also others that super strong time trialers can win by doing damage control in the high-mountains. It will still be exciting in the mountains: today's stage was thrilling. Ideally find the sweet spot that allows both of those prototypes to contend.

Anyway, saying it's fine to have as little as possible ITT kms because most GC are climbers is reminiscent of flawed logical thinking like the Butterfield Paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Butterfield#Criticism . Imagine upping the ITT kms to 200kms and then claiming organizers should target +250kms and more TT stages because most contenders are TTers anyway.

Beautifully put.

i dont like time trials, i like the mountains, to me time trials is only how many watts can you generate, there is no tactics, no possitioning, no nothing. 70 kms is way to much, unless there is a mountain tt. lets try a stelvio mountain tt.

It is not about liking mountains or TTs (i like mountains myself more). It is about the strongest and most deserving rider winning the GT.

Anybody who is fine for Nairo and Tom D. to go head to head on etna, blockhaus , umbrail, oropa, piamcavallo, pontives and foza (almost 7 hours of effort) and who thinks less than 90 minute efforts of head to head in ITT is too much, is not being fair to himself and the sport IMO.

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

The reason Dumoulin won isn't because of too many ITT km; it's because Quintana performed well below his best in the mountains and in the ITTs.

Quintana was still better than he was in the 2015 Vuelta but not any better than he was in the 2016 Tour.

Even with the 2016 Vuelta form he enters the final TT with a 3+ minute lead and Dumoulin would be further back.

Again we don't know that, this is Nairos level

and yet nibali would've won the giro without ceremony whilst being on the 2014 form, the same as landa might've won provided he had managed to reproduce the 2015 giro form and put out a decent time trials! all about shouldas couldas wouldas!

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

FYI, Alberto Contador went from being ITT fodder to smashing them between 2007 and 2008, so anything is possible. With that said, unless Quintana improves his ITT he is more likely to have a Sastre/Andy Schleck career than a Contador/Froome career.

Then again Sastre won a Tour de France with the ITT of his life and Schleck "won" a Tour de France so Quintana shouldn't give up completely.

Contador was a Spanish itt junior champion and his tt was always excellent for a climber. He already was faster than Leipheimer in the first 2007 TdF tt and basically won the 2008 Giro in the tt's.

He began smoking in 2009.

And Quintana's TT is the best for a climber of his size. In his weight category, he's the best.
Contador is his weight category might not be the best.

In his prime he was.

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

FYI, Alberto Contador went from being ITT fodder to smashing them between 2007 and 2008, so anything is possible. With that said, unless Quintana improves his ITT he is more likely to have a Sastre/Andy Schleck career than a Contador/Froome career.

Then again Sastre won a Tour de France with the ITT of his life and Schleck "won" a Tour de France so Quintana shouldn't give up completely.

Contador was a Spanish itt junior champion and his tt was always excellent for a climber. He already was faster than Leipheimer in the first 2007 TdF tt and basically won the 2008 Giro in the tt's.

He began smoking in 2009.

And Quintana's TT is the best for a climber of his size. In his weight category, he's the best.
Contador is his weight category might not be the best.

What's your point caller? TTs don't get broken down into weight classification

 

[The Hegelian]

I'm suddenly thinking: dark horse Zakarin could take this.

Looks the freshest to me + has the tt pedigree. TD reminds me of Evans in the '08 tour - just a bit spent.

 

[spalco]

Re: Re:

He began smoking in 2009.

What? Do you mean that as a metaphor for the decline in his form or literally?

 

[python]

who were the two that showed a relative surge in performance in the last week ? answer: pinot and zak.

follows--> expect a surprisingly (relative to their 1st itt) good performance today.

who was showing the gradual fall in performance ? answer: dumo.

follows--> he should still win both the itt and the giro but not nowhere near the margin he showed in the 1st itt.

i say, zak may produce a ride of his lifetime...