Giro d'Italia Giro d'Italia 2021 stage 11: Perugia – Montalcino 162 km

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Mountain trains are not made up of a line of flyweights. All a TTT does is award free time to GC riders on rich teams, as if it wasn’t already a big enough advantage to have Dennis, Ganna etc on your team.

Any race director who puts a TTT in a stage race should be given a stiff prison sentence
I agree, but a short or even very short TTT is fine imo, it does have a lot of tradition too.
 
That was considered the EASY Pyrenean stage.

Was more than 110 km of flat TT that year, yet it was still a climbers tour. Today's peloton wouldn't know what to do with 3 stages like that back to back to back
it was a climbers Tour because the best surviving climber lost 1.4 s/km to the overall best time trialist in TTs, not because of some outrageously difficult mountain stages
 
But then the TT strong GC guys could just limit their losses in the mountains, and settle it in the TTs. After all, if the TTers cannot hack it, they need to become better climbers.
Besides, I'd worry that with 75+ TTs, the number of technical TTs might decline.
but who are these TT strong guys who compete for GC these days? They are few and far between. Nearly all of the GC people are now small climber types. It used to be the reverse.
 
There should be enough ITT kms in a route so that an all around rider who is clearly a better time trialer than a climber should defeat him, unless the climber properly drops him on at least one mountain stage.

A climber shouldn't be able to just wait until the final 500-1500 metres on seven or so stages, and where 10-15 seconds here or there is enough to win the race (if he is not a great time trialer).

The combination of low ITT kms and the recent popularity of finishing walls (even refer to stage 9) discourages thoughts of long range (or even of 5km long) attacks.

Having said that, if Bernal defeats Remco by more than two minutes, than he deserves to win, but if he won by less than a minute....there simply should be more ITT.
 
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Sorry but that's not 100% accurate. While its true that professionalism, conditions (ranging from gearing and materials to road surfaces) and overall athletic level has greatly improved I would say that only accounts for 30% of changes in race results and racing trends. The other 70% relates to changes in stage designs and parcours of the race.

History tells us that mountain stages featuring close/above 200 KMS and 3/4 mountain passes are what truly shatters the pack. Currently it's hard to see a single mountain stage in a GT with those conditions. Whenver we see those stages, peloton is ripped to pieces and subpar climbers (or those with low endurance) are exposed.

Also, ultra steep climbs are killing cycling. Climbing Rocca di Cambio with a steep 1KM ramp with gravel and 15% gradient is just stupid fireworks, but not real climbing. Stelvio, Madeleine, Croix de Fer... Those are real mountain passes for real climbers.

Of course Bardet and Landa will never win a GT. They are simply not good enough. They are "climbers" who can't even consistently win mountain stages, let alone a whole GT. Put Bardet in the 2000 TDF. All he would be able to do is winning a mountain stage in a breakaway and the polka dot jersey while finishing 10th or 11th.
o. M. G.

this.

ten times over.
 
Okay can we say who this time trialer who is at disadvantage here, is? Who are you talking about? Ganna?
Because if it's Evenepoel - I don't think he counts as a heavy time trialer, and I think he will actually, maybe/ hopefully not now, but at his best, leave Bernal behind in the mountains.
So will Pogacar who doesn't count as a skinny climber, either, in my eyes.
Who are the time trial specialists you see having no chance in a GT nowadays because the routes are made for skinny climbers? Ganna?
If you look at Cavagna or Dennis, they aren't heavy at all, either. Still, however, they aren't allrounders, who are in for LBL for instance, they are time trial specialists.
 
So I've given it a lot of thought and this is my preview for tomorrow's stage.

5 minutes after the official start PCS reports that a large break has formed. It includes Marengo, Gallopin, Pellaud, Battistella, Sagan, Marengo and Bennet among others. Poeple on the forum make silly jokes about Marengo having a secret brother or whatever. I laugh.
With 70 km to go the peloton starts the first sterrato sector. Remco crashes immediately. Logic goes loco and complains about DQS not properly warning Remco over the radio. RedheadDane asks him how he can be sure they didn't warn him properly. For the following 10 minutes they indulge in semantics until Red Rick makes a geek joke and we all start focusing on the race again.

Meanwhile the break has been caught but Sagan attacks again and goes solo. Remco had to change bikes and is chasing 2 minutes behind, peloton goes fast because the fight for position before Passo del Lume Spento is furious. As soon as the climb starts Formolo attacks. Formolo is also known as Roccia (literally rock) so he feels at home on these roads. He's a bit leaner than The Rock though. Formolo bridges to Sagan and they gain one minute on the peloton. Ineos is pushing the pace and many complain that they should wait for Remco. But he's not in the maglia rosa so people complain a bit less than usual.

At the end of Passo del Lume Spento the peloton is in pieces. Ciccone is 30 seconds behind. Yates and Buchmann one minute behind. Carthy almost 2 minutes behind and Bettiol is not with him. At first he tried to help him but then a fellow Tuscan fan on the road shouted at him: "Maremma maiala , sei proprio una fava" (no translation available) and he got back to the front. Evenepoel is somewhere in between these guys but he was going so fast that the moto lost contact to him. There is no information on Dan Martin. Moscon keeps drilling it for Bernal. Gaps get bigger. Only Bardet, Vlasov, Soler, Bettiol, Quinten Hermans and Masnada (finally living up to the hype) are in the group. Sagan is also there after being dropped by Formolo who leads with a 30 seconds advantage.

They are about to hit the final sterrato sector when Remco finally regains contact. He has not eaten or drunk anything for the past 90 minutes, but he looks fresh. He passes the group at double speed and goes chasing Formolo. Final sector starts, Remco crashes again, Lefevere personally informs the forum members that he indeed warned Remco but the Belgian prodigy allegedly ate his radio when hit by a hunger knock a few minutes before. Masnada gives him his bike which makes Remco less aero than normal but he still chases like a madman. He's one minute behind when Froome enters the race and tells him to follow his lead: "this will be your Finestre", he says. The sterrato opens in front of them like the Red Sea for Moses. They pass rider after rider and get back to Bernal right on top of the climb. Only Formolo is ahead.

Froome disappears. But Nibali appears out of nowhere with a bionic left arm. He can finally get out of the saddle but unfortunately the climbing is over. He doesn't care though, he descends out of the saddle and drops both Bernal and Remco. He bridges to Formolo and outsprints him at the finish. Gazillion jokes about the bag. I don't particularly laugh. The end.
 
Sorry but that's not 100% accurate. While its true that professionalism, conditions (ranging from gearing and materials to road surfaces) and overall athletic level has greatly improved I would say that only accounts for 30% of changes in race results and racing trends. The other 70% relates to changes in stage designs and parcours of the race.

History tells us that mountain stages featuring close/above 200 KMS and 3/4 mountain passes are what truly shatters the pack. Currently it's hard to see a single mountain stage in a GT with those conditions. Whenver we see those stages, peloton is ripped to pieces and subpar climbers (or those with low endurance) are exposed.

Also, ultra steep climbs are killing cycling. Climbing Rocca di Cambio with a steep 1KM ramp with gravel and 15% gradient is just stupid fireworks, but not real climbing. Stelvio, Madeleine, Croix de Fer... Those are real mountain passes for real climbers.

Of course Bardet and Landa will never win a GT. They are simply not good enough. They are "climbers" who can't even consistently win mountain stages, let alone a whole GT. Put Bardet in the 2000 TDF. All he would be able to do is winning a mountain stage in a breakaway and the polka dot jersey while finishing 10th or 11th.
Bolded section - In general terms I would agree that the majority of mountain stages are simply too short or start really tough but 50/60% of the way through have long valley sections that kill off any thoughts of super long range raids.

The exception to this was the 67.5km mountain stage in the tour recently. It might have been a gimmick and the grid start proved to be entirely inconsequential but the gaps in the stage were enough despite only being a2 hour 20m stage for the winners. I would certainly like to see a similar stage in the middle of week 3 at least 1 year in 3 to give a different dynamic.
 
So I've given it a lot of thought and this is my preview for tomorrow's stage.

5 minutes after the official start PCS reports that a large break has formed. It includes Marengo, Gallopin, Pellaud, Battistella, Sagan, Marengo and Bennet among others. Poeple on the forum make silly jokes about Marengo having a secret brother or whatever. I laugh.
With 70 km to go the peloton starts the first sterrato sector. Remco crashes immediately. Logic goes loco and complains about DQS not properly warning Remco over the radio. RedheadDane asks him how he can be sure they didn't warn him properly. For the following 10 minutes they indulge in semantics until Red Rick makes a geek joke and we all start focusing on the race again.

Meanwhile the break has been caught but Sagan attacks again and goes solo. Remco had to change bikes and is chasing 2 minutes behind, peloton goes fast because the fight for position before Passo del Lume Spento is furious. As soon as the climb starts Formolo attacks. Formolo is also known as Roccia (literally rock) so he feels at home on these roads. He's a bit leaner than The Rock though. Formolo bridges to Sagan and they gain one minute on the peloton. Ineos is pushing the pace and many complain that they should wait for Remco. But he's not in the maglia rosa so people complain a bit less than usual.

At the end of Passo del Lume Spento the peloton is in pieces. Ciccone is 30 seconds behind. Yates and Buchmann one minute behind. Carthy almost 2 minutes behind and Bettiol is not with him. At first he tried to help him but then a fellow Tuscan fan on the road shouted at him: "Maremma maiala , sei proprio una fava" (no translation available) and he got back to the front. Evenepoel is somewhere in between these guys but he was going so fast that the moto lost contact to him. There is no information on Dan Martin. Moscon keeps drilling it for Bernal. Gaps get bigger. Only Bardet, Vlasov, Soler, Bettiol, Quinten Hermans and Masnada (finally living up to the hype) are in the group. Sagan is also there after being dropped by Formolo who leads with a 30 seconds advantage.

They are about to hit the final sterrato sector when Remco finally regains contact. He has not eaten or drunk anything for the past 90 minutes, but he looks fresh. He passes the group at double speed and goes chasing Formolo. Final sector starts, Remco crashes again, Lefevere personally informs the forum members that he indeed warned Remco but the Belgian prodigy allegedly ate his radio when hit by a hunger knock a few minutes before. Masnada gives him his bike which makes Remco less aero than normal but he still chases like a madman. He's one minute behind when Froome enters the race and tells him to follow his lead: "this will be your Finestre", he says. The sterrato opens in front of them like the Red Sea for Moses. They pass rider after rider and get back to Bernal right on top of the climb. Only Formolo is ahead.

Froome disappears. But Nibali appears out of nowhere with a bionic left arm. He can finally get out of the saddle but unfortunately the climbing is over. He doesn't care though, he descends out of the saddle and drops both Bernal and Remco. He bridges to Formolo and outsprints him at the finish. Gazillion jokes about the bag. I don't particularly laugh. The end.
Forum members fight for the next 3 days about what this means for the Zoncolan. In the end everyone agrees about how *** the Tour route is.
 
Forum members fight for the next 3 days about what this means for the Zoncolan. In the end everyone agrees about how *** the Tour route is.
And the nutritional value of race radios.

Logic-is-your-friend will vehemently claim there's nothing more energetically useful for the human body and that Remco did excatly the right thing while others demand to see scientific papers about that.
Big Doopie answers Eddy Merckx ate nothing but radios during difficult stages.
 
but who are these TT strong guys who compete for GC these days? They are few and far between. Nearly all of the GC people are now small climber types. It used to be the reverse.
Dumoulin, Thomas, Froome, Roglic were all some of the best tt’ers in the world at some point. Pogacar is a great tt’er as well.
How many weak tt’ers have won a grand tour in the last 5 years? Carapaz and Yates. Even a guy like Bernal is quite competent even though he is primarily a climber.
 
Dumoulin, Thomas, Froome, Roglic were all some of the best tt’ers in the world at some point. Pogacar is a great tt’er as well.
How many weak tt’ers have won a grand tour in the last 5 years? Carapaz and Yates. Even a guy like Bernal is quite competent even though he is primarily a climber.
the riders you mention all have to lose drastic weight to contend. The climbers just wait for a convenient route to be provided.

the riders you mention only once competed against each other in a GT. Usually just one or two are at the start.

All three GTs were held by Carapaz, Yates and Bernal at one time. Tiny climbers. Unheard of in the history of cycling.

“competent” should not cut it when discussing a test of all-rounders. Bernal is super talented and exciting but just like Van Impe (who was actually more than competent at TT) he should only win a GT very rarely if things were balanced.

if Froome, Dumoulin, Thomas or Roglic regularly finished between 30th and 50th in mountain stages, would they be considered GC contenders?

In 1975, the main contenders at the start were Merckx, Gimondi, Thevenet, Ocana and Zoetemelk. Each of those riders could win a TT as well as a mountain stage. Van Impe was considered too much of a climber but reached his first podium. Why? Because he actually could TT pretty well. He finished third in the flat prologue behind Moser and Merckx. And won a long TT, albeit a very hilly one. I mean, seriously, can you imagine Bernal finishing third in a flat prologue, or Herrera, or Fuente?

top three in 84 and 85? Hinault, Roche, Fignon, Lemond. All riders who won mountain stages and ITTs. Herrera wasn’t even considered a threat. Delgado only became a threat once he started to top five in ITTs.
 
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