Giro d'Italia Giro d'Italia 2021 stage 11: Perugia – Montalcino 162 km

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Dennis and Van Aert are clearly top 5 TTers and had they been here and riding for GC I reckon they would be top 15 at the rest day as well.
Dennis was at the 2018 Giro riding for GC until he got blown out of it on Finestre.

If the current generation of TT specialists had the wherewithal to be GC riders, you'd see them riding for GC. Roche, Lemond and Fignon were mentioned earlier as riders who won GTs by being able to win mountain stages and ITTs (and after them, Rominger); the equivalent to them in today's peloton is surely the likes of ROG, POG, Froome, Thomas, who have all won TT and mountain stages.

And lest we forget, Hampsten and Herrera both won GTs back in the 80s. And Pantani beat Ullrich in a TdF with over 120kms of ITT.
 
Recent Giri often had a boring second week (Monday to Friday), but that won't be true this time. Something is bound to happen. Ineos will probably take the initiative again, with Ganna towing Bernal over the strade. Evenepoel remains a question mark on this terrain, but he can count on guys like Cavagna, Keisse and Serry. Some GC riders will lose time, but it's hard to predict who.
 
I think Kittel had a World junior TT title. I'm not sure age grade races reflect what a rider will go on to do in senior ranks.

I included Nibali there as someone who would be considered more likely to win a race in the mountains, than against the clock.
ok, let's try differently. in GTs Nibali is generally among the best out of GC contenders in ITT.

And I still don't get why he would be in a different category than TGH.
 
ok, let's try differently. in GTs Nibali is generally among the best out of GC contenders in ITT.

And I still don't get why he would be in a different category than TGH.
I think in all honesty TGH is in a different category to pretty much any recent GT winner. I'll just call it the "2020 Giro category" and leave it at that.

I agree that Nibali is better than most GT contenders of the 2010s against the clock. My point was that of recent multiple GT winners, he and Contador are the closest to being someone you could call a "pure climber." Nibali's stage wins in the mountains in 2014 were the sort of climbing dominance you usually see from someone nicknamed after a bird, or likely to be blown away by a stiff breeze anywhere above 2000m.
 
I think in all honesty TGH is in a different category to pretty much any recent GT winner. I'll just call it the "2020 Giro category" and leave it at that.

I agree that Nibali is better than most GT contenders of the 2010s against the clock. My point was that of recent multiple GT winners, he and Contador are the closest to being someone you could call a "pure climber." Nibali's stage wins in the mountains in 2014 were the sort of climbing dominance you usually see from someone nicknamed after a bird, or likely to be blown away by a stiff breeze anywhere above 2000m.
I guess it's a question of definitions then. My definition at least for the 2014 Tour is that Nibali was the best in the mountains and the best in the ITT out of GC contenders, so he was the best all-rounder.

But I see where you're coming from.
 
Dennis was at the 2018 Giro riding for GC until he got blown out of it on Finestre.

If the current generation of TT specialists had the wherewithal to be GC riders, you'd see them riding for GC. Roche, Lemond and Fignon were mentioned earlier as riders who won GTs by being able to win mountain stages and ITTs (and after them, Rominger); the equivalent to them in today's peloton is surely the likes of ROG, POG, Froome, Thomas, who have all won TT and mountain stages.

And lest we forget, Hampsten and Herrera both won GTs back in the 80s. And Pantani beat Ullrich in a TdF with over 120kms of ITT.
I wasn’t inferring either could win the race overall just that at this point in the race I think they would be well capable of being in or very close to the Maglia Rosa after 10 stages especially Van Aert who could have picked up lots of bonus seconds with the way the sprints have panned out.
 
Who are the top GC riders presently? Roglic and Pogacar. Who is the most hyped GC talent? Evenepoel. Who was the dominant GC rider of the last period? Froome. The pinnacle of GC riding is still continuously occupied by extremely strong ITT riders, not one sided climbing specialists.

There are excellent ITT specialists who can’t compete for GC or at least haven’t done so, so far, like Ganna, Dennis, Kung. But excellent climbing specialists who ITT as well as Kung climbs also struggle as GC men. I don’t see why it would be more balanced if a Kung or Ganna was winning GTs. Simon Yates is probably the worst TTist to win a GT in the recent period. Despite being probably one of the three best climbers in the world he has won precisely one Vuelta and he’s not that bad a TTist.

There has been a shift from TTing to climbing, I absolutely agree. But I don’t think the current mixture is as unbalanced as you are making out when you look at the riders who actually win.
Ganna wouldn't come close to a grand tour win if we went back to 2 55km ITTs and a 65 km TTT. That wouldn't make up for him losing 10-15 minutes each and every day in the mountains
 
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I guess it's a question of definitions then. My definition at least for the 2014 Tour is that Nibali was the best in the mountains and the best in the ITT out of GC contenders, so he was the best all-rounder.

But I see where you're coming from.
I think it definitely comes down to definitions.

Take the 2014 Tour. Nibali was obviously the best all-rounder, ahead of Peraud (all-rounder), Pinot (climber) , Valverde (climber/classics rider) and Tejay (TTer who could climb).

Too often we think of a specialist as being defined by something they're bad at. The truth is, Indurain, Froome, Contador, etc won their GTs by beating everyone everywhere. Even Dumoulin won a summit finish stage ahead of Quintana.
 
Haven't read all the posts yet, but Big Doopie's excellent point is that riders can get away with being only the 30th best time trialer in the field and still contend in GC, but you certainly cannot contend if you are the 30th best climber. This is the disparity.

Nobody is saying that guys like Ganna and Dennis should be allowed to contend for GC. They don't consistently finish top 10-15 in mountain stages.

A current day Tour route should actually allow the Slovenians to finish 10 minutes ahead of Landa/Lopez, rather than merely 5. Those guys time trial worse than Ganna and Dennis climb.
 
Much has been said about the possibility of Bernal (ex MTBer, alongside VdP and the others at the end of the gravel sections in Strade Bianche, etc) as a real contender for tomorrow. What of Evenepoel, who was kicking a pig's bladder around at the age when he should have been riding off-road for fun? Bike handling does not seem to be a great strength of his, although his team support should be outstanding. Can he stay in contention, or is he riding for damage limitation?
 
One has to remember what made the 2010 stage and the race for that sake so good was Vino always attacking, if evenepoel is allowed to go from far it could be good, otherwise its just a snoozefest
 
I think Ineos will try to do a lot of damage tomorrow and I expect a couple of riders in the top20 to lose a few minutes. Hoping that Evenepoel can stay with Bernal at least until the little climb in the end but don't think that he will go into offense.
 
Much has been said about the possibility of Bernal (ex MTBer, alongside VdP and the others at the end of the gravel sections in Strade Bianche, etc) as a real contender for tomorrow. What of Evenepoel, who was kicking a pig's bladder around at the age when he should have been riding off-road for fun? Bike handling does not seem to be a great strength of his, although his team support should be outstanding. Can he stay in contention, or is he riding for damage limitation?
Remco Undroppapoel has never ridden for damage limitation or to simply to stay in contention.

It's possible he falls victim to a momentary temporal disclocation but as ever that will be nothing but a shadow on the sun as he transcends mortal achievement.
 

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