Giro d'Italia Stage 3: Amsterdam-Middelburg (209km)

[superconfex]

Normally I am sorta lukewarm about the opening stages, but this was great viewing, and we certainly are hitting Italy with an almost perfect set-up for fireworks.

It's a shame some folk got really hurt on the road, but I totally disagree with the Eurosport commentators. To me the last two days highlighted what I really dislike in most stage races, that they are taking all risks out of racing by sticking to wide roads and perfect run-ins. Always felt they were neutering something that I think is part and parcel of a GT: endurance, trial, challenge.

Knowing that the end run ins are following the usual pattern, and cruising on great roads to it, it just breeds that calculated let's have an escape group dangling out there and then reel them comfortably in when it's "that time". A flat stage style that I hate, but have been forced to endure far far too often. Here, that really doesn't work as a race approach.

The only thing that would have worked, as pointed out, is to make the race on Dutch roads hard from the get-go, to make that big group smaller, and thus the road less risky. I know we have a long 3 weeks ahead of us. So what? Isn't it the point that no stage should be "comfortable, controllable and predictable? We got waaay to used to "the normal way" a 3 week GT rolls out. The last 2 days showed that that doesn't need to be the way. You don't even need tome bonuses to create interesting gaps artificially.

Everyone knew yard by yard where they would be racing. If they were so keen their main man really safe, teams were simply not deploying the right attack attitude: make the race a lot harder. They chose not to. And reaped the rewards for that attitude: Dutch lottery.

But why should only mountain stages run folk into the red in the last week and a bit?

It proved to me that the current crop of GT specialists, riders and directors, can learn a trick or two from the classic folk too: how to race here. We have started to specialize over the last decade and a bit. Well, please let that era come to end quickly if the stages can be this entertaining from the start.

As a group, they were bloody nervous, out of their comfort zone, and, ironically, too careful. And that was responsible for more crashes than anything the road threw at them.

And the main riders who actually have more all-round skills knew it. Even after yesterday's crash fest, the only thing I got from most interviews by the big names was that the nervousness was fingered more than the actual route taken.

So, to my delight, 2 great telly days. And we are having some great gaps, after the first 2 proper stages. And all we crossed was a pancake. Wow.

Glad they brought the Tour here too. Could keep me more awake than usual during the first days.

Top post.... sums it up for me

 

[Mellow Velo]

Strange, but i thought it was exciting, windy/flat/fast/technical stage. Some so called GC riders teams should really learn how to ride in these conditions, felt sorry for Cadel Evans, he must be wondering tonight about how he's going to ride the TTT without a team!! He rode like a champion on the front trying to keep the gap down, more than you could say for Carlos Sastre. Main GC contenders in front group Vino/Basso/Miller........ all dopers, sorry..... ex-dopers!!!!!!!!. At this stage if anyone(clean?) is going to win this I'd put money on Garzelli/Evans.........

Quite right. He only got his ban for testing positive for a masking agent.

I agree with most. I had very low expectations of these Dutch stages and they have proven excellent. Not just physically, but mentally draining.
Sure there has been an element of bad luck but others have made their own luck.

I felt sorry for Gibo, today. Obviously, he was never a protected rider.
He had to do a lot of donkey work for Cunego, then, just as the got back to the front group, got sent to aid Petacchi. Totally cooked.

 

[Irish2009]

I felt sorry for Gibo, today. Obviously, he was never a protected rider.
He had to do a lot of donkey work for Cunego, then, just as the got back to the front group, got sent to aid Petacchi. Totally cooked.

Gibo, only had 2 days in his legs before Giro, and this time (maybe)nothing in his viens!!!

 

[Francois the Postman]

When there's a crash in the pack, it's a lot about dumb luck. Sastre and Wiggins were extremely well positioned yesterday....and the guy in front of them crashed and who got through? The guys who were at the back in bad positions.

When it's about skill in navigating the wind, I love it as much as anything else in this sport

When it's about arbitrary crashing because someone else made a mistake, that's not what sport is about. Sport is about being the best and the smartest, not about who can roll the dice and get a high number.

Then avoid having a pack around you. Race to shed some of the lot behind you until you have taken that risk out of it. It really is that simple. You apply different attitudes to the terrain around you, or suffer the consequences. People do race in the NL, you know. I have seen amateurs deploying more street wisdom than this lot.

They know all about the wind, they can examine every inch of the stage beforehand. What they haven't done is figured out how to tackle this and keep it safe. The roads are as safe as you want them to be, unless you are stupid enough to allow the entire pack around you at great speed.

You know what is really dangerous? Descents on big mountains with steep gaps beside the road. Literally neck-breaking. But we expect people to bring skill to the races that are appropriate if they want to plummet themselves down it. Race in a style that is appropriate to the terrain. When the lot would wait at the top and then descend as a pack 5 wide, you'd declare the racers imbeciles for expecting that to turn out well.

Yet here you are blaming the mountain for being a but too tricky to tackle.

It isn't tricky. You star at the base and you start riding your heart out until you reach the top. This is the sort of terrain that usually has the strongest man standing at the end, if ridden correctly. A team might help you a bit on the way, but the strongest ****** should arrive in a small group or alone, or you have done something wrong. Like a climber would have done something really wrong if he ended up with half his team or, worse, Cavendish at the finish on Mt Ventoux.

That the group was kept too big by racing "conventionally" was the riders fault, not the ravine or the road furniture's. These were prime stages, to go all out. They didn't.

I accept that it's easier to spot the difference between a hill and a king mountain, and figure out where to ride how, and where you can soft-peddle it a bit and get away with it. A flat stage through the Netherlands injects road furniture and wind. It makes it a hard flat race. Strong riders and strong teams can stay out of all the trouble, but not by "soft"-peddling it.

Flat out from the start, it is the only way. It's different than what you are used to, but do it, and voila, safe race! Don't do it, carnage somewhere.

There was a thread a while back about the difference between US and NL crits. Dutch ones: so hard they are single line from the word go. I guess VDV has figured out today why.

I'm sorry he broke his collar bone. But to conclude it is the unsafe road that cause this sort of stuff, is akin to saying that last year Horillo never should have been led down that mountain by those stupid race directors. What were they thinking?

And yes, getting caught behind others falling also means that you haven't been riding clever enough on these roads, too conservative, or just aren't the GT contender you thought you were if all stages are taken into consideration, and raced with the respect they deserve.

You want to keep your reserves high for when it gets tricky, totally ignoring that you are right in the middle of tricky and the way you go about it is making it even trickier - and having had roughly 1 year to figure that out too...... that is ***.

 

[jonjungel]

Sastre says on his homepage that he couldn't take pulls in the final because of pain in his back and the right leg from a crash yesterday. He really needs the rest day. Hope it doesn't affect the rest of his race.

 

[Cobblestones]

Francois, I think this and your previous post are the most intelligent posts in this thread. The key is really to approach these stages like you would one of the classics. Ride the tarmac fodder off the back and you'll have a manageable group. These stages are not to be taken lightly. The sad thing is that really everybody knows it. Look at the TdF this year. There's a stage like that in there.** The same faulty tactics will be employed. People will crash, a collarbone here, some road rash there, many falls, some smashed GC hopes and plenty of whining in the end. The sad thing is, we already know that's precisely how it will play out, because the teams aren't willing to race sensibly. Sensible racing would be exactly what you describe, except that no team is going to commit the effort. They all hope to soft pedal and get lucky. Guess what, most of them will, but the few who don't shouldn't really complain in the end.

** ETA: Stage 3, Wanze -> Arenberg (yes that Arenberg)

 

[superconfex]

Back in the day the superconfex team would have torn these whinging lightweights a new one.

 

[ak-zaaf]

Back in the day the superconfex team would have torn these whinging lightweights a new one.

Just imagine Hooydonck, Solleveld and Nijdam pulling the lot in a stage like this. People wouldn't have made the time limit

 

[Irish2009]

Just looking at race footage, Wiggins/Cunego were in second group (can't blame a crash for that) at 70km to go, SKY/HTC got them back on. Still feel sorry for Evans,he rode well all day & after getting delayed by crash chased more or less alone..

 

[issoisso]

They know all about the wind, they can examine every inch of the stage beforehand. What they haven't done is figured out how to tackle this and keep it safe. The roads are as safe as you want them to be, unless you are stupid enough to allow the entire pack around you at great speed.

You know what is really dangerous? Descents on big mountains with steep gaps beside the road. Literally neck-breaking. But we expect people to bring skill to the races that are appropriate if they want to plummet themselves down it. Race in a style that is appropriate to the terrain. When the lot would wait at the top and then descend as a pack 5 wide, you'd declare the racers imbeciles for expecting that to turn out well.

Yet here you are blaming the mountain for being a but too tricky to tackle.

It isn't tricky. You star at the base and you start riding your heart out until you reach the top. This is the sort of terrain that usually has the strongest man standing at the end, if ridden correctly. A team might help you a bit on the way, but the strongest ****** should arrive in a small group or alone, or you have done something wrong. Like a climber would have done something really wrong if he ended up with half his team or, worse, Cavendish at the finish on Mt Ventoux.

That the group was kept too big by racing "conventionally" was the riders fault, not the ravine or the road furniture's. These were prime stages, to go all out. They didn't.

I accept that it's easier to spot the difference between a hill and a king mountain, and figure out where to ride how, and where you can soft-peddle it a bit and get away with it. A flat stage through the Netherlands injects road furniture and wind. It makes it a hard flat race. Strong riders and strong teams can stay out of all the trouble, but not by "soft"-peddling it.

Flat out from the start, it is the only way. It's different than what you are used to, but do it, and voila, safe race! Don't do it, carnage somewhere.

There was a thread a while back about the difference between US and NL crits. Dutch ones: so hard they are single line from the word go. I guess VDV has figured out today why.

I'm sorry he broke his collar bone. But to conclude it is the unsafe road that cause this sort of stuff, is akin to saying that last year Horillo never should have been led down that mountain by those stupid race directors. What were they thinking?

And yes, getting caught behind others falling also means that you haven't been riding clever enough on these roads, too conservative, or just aren't the GT contender you thought you were if all stages are taken into consideration, and raced with the respect they deserve.

You want to keep your reserves high for when it gets tricky, totally ignoring that you are right in the middle of tricky and the way you go about it is making it even trickier - and having had roughly 1 year to figure that out too...... that is ***.

I agree with all of that, except for the two assumptions you made about my posts (Since you quoted me, I'm assuming that post was directed at me ):

- You assumed I blamed the road. I didn't. At all.
- You assumed I have no problem with tricky mountain descents, which I do.

Other than that, you've explained wonderuflly what I think we're all thinking

 

[offbyone]

Just looking at race footage, Wiggins/Cunego were in second group (can't blame a crash for that) at 70km to go, SKY/HTC got them back on. Still feel sorry for Evans,he rode well all day & after getting delayed by crash chased more or less alone..

I have a hard time feeling sorry for Evans but in this case he really ran into some bad luck. This quote cracks me up, i guess Evans will be wary of sitting on the sky boys' wheels from now on.

“With 10km to go, I had done everything right, I put myself everywhere (to be safe) and was relaxed and there was no wind,” Evans explained. “Then, I came around a corner and the whole Sky team was on the ground."

 

[Mellow Velo]

"The whole Sky Team were on the ground."

You live by the train, you die by the train.
A bend too far, IMO.

 

[Cobblestones]

I have a hard time feeling sorry for Evans but in this case he really ran into some bad luck. This quote cracks me up, i guess Evans will be wary of sitting on the sky boys' wheels from now on.

Well, yeah, there's your problem.

He said he put himself everywhere safe, but on the other hand he was behind Team Sky. Does not compute.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Just looking at race footage, Wiggins/Cunego were in second group (can't blame a crash for that) at 70km to go, SKY/HTC got them back on. Still feel sorry for Evans,he rode well all day & after getting delayed by crash chased more or less alone..

****!!!!

Sky you piece of crap! How dare you knock off Cadel! I will slit all your throats! Even better, VINO is in the lead!


I am just furious!!!!!! Hope Vino lose 10 hours in the ttt! UNrepentant Doper!!!

 

[inputjoe]

Bad luck made worse by team incompetence. When Evans went down where was the rest of BMC? He is supposed to be a protected rider.

 

[stefrees]

****!!!!

Sky you piece of crap! How dare you knock off Cadel! I will slit all your throats! Even better, VINO is in the lead!


I am just furious!!!!!! Hope Vino lose 10 hours in the ttt! UNrepentant Doper!!!

at least sky had numbers til that crash and had looked strong, just one small error. bmc cant blame anyone else for having no one up the front.

 

[taiwan]

Bad luck made worse by team incompetence. When Evans went down where was the rest of BMC? He is supposed to be a protected rider.

Literal answer: quite a few of them were in the 8 minute group with Petacchi. Don't know when Evans got seperated from them. No secret that it's not a strong team.

 

[Tugboat]

** ETA: Stage 3, Wanze -> Arenberg (yes that Arenberg)

But the stage doesn't include that stretch of cobbles for which Arenberg gets its infamy.

 

[Bernardus]

 

[Cobblestones]

But the stage doesn't include that stretch of cobbles for which Arenberg gets its infamy.

Yeah, too bad. But they'll ride on cobbles that stage. I checked it.

 

[inputjoe]

Literal answer: quite a few of them were in the 8 minute group with Petacchi. Don't know when Evans got seperated from them. No secret that it's not a strong team.

It would be quite a feat if they managed to get themselves separated from Evans on Wednesday, though at this point I wouldn't bet against.

 

[Night Rider]

The whole Sky team are on the ground

Again!

Not much use having all those high tech gadgets and training when you can't even keep a bike on two wheels.

 

[taiwan]

It would be quite a feat if they managed to get themselves separated from Evans on Wednesday, though at this point I wouldn't bet against.

Ha ha. They're down to 8 men as well. Oh dear. Could be handing big time to Vino and Basso, although I hope not.

 

[Night Rider]

Richie Porte

Can any Australians shed any light on how good this guy may be? Or, has he just been in the right place at the right time. Seems to be pretty handy at TT's.

 

[blaxland]

Strange start to the Giro...just my interpretations so far but does anybody else think that Bmc could be playing the Bluff card?I mean all riders except cadel were left behind in stage 3,maybe once the time gap was there, not bothering to chase thus saving energy required for the TTT?Could this be the masterstroke?Or is it just because Cadel has a week team?All in all a very exciting Giro so far bring on the Mountains..........