Giro d'Italia Stage 9: Messina - Etna, 169km (let the race begin!)

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Dec 27, 2010
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I'll be interested to here how "the easy grade worked in his favour" when we are talking about a sub-50kg climber.
 
Sep 8, 2010
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McEwen and Brown out of time limit. Why is Cavendish still in? 26:28 was the limit for today.
 
will10 said:
I'll be interested to here how "the easy grade worked in his favour" when we are talking about a sub-50kg climber.

Because easy grades help with the acceleration, no matter how light you are. I mean, we're still talking about a climb, not a sprint finish. Real climbers need hard grades to make the difference.

The selection comes with the terrain. In fact on the last steep part is where Albero finally unhitched him.
 
Dec 27, 2010
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rhubroma said:
Because easy grades help with the acceleration, no matter how light you are. I mean, we're still talking about a climb, not a sprint finish. Real climbers need hard grades to make the difference.

The selection comes with the terrain. In fact on the last steep part is where Albero finally unhitched him.

You misunderstand me. If anything Rujano is going to be at a disadvantage on the shallower graded parts of the climb, compared to Contador.
 
Aug 16, 2009
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I don't see how anyone can compete with Contador. He just needs another good day and he can just play defense. He probably doesn't even need to do that. You can stick a fork in this one.
 
will10 said:
You misunderstand me. If anything Rujano is going to be at a disadvantage on the shallower graded parts of the climb, compared to Contador.

But not in that particular situation.

The climb was fast, a rapporto as the Italians say, therefore there weren't big changes in rythm, or, if you like, speed. Apart from AC's initial burst, which would have killed the Venezuelan.

On steeper climbs a light rider is benefited to a certain degree, because of the possibility of radical changes in rythm, but not on one that's not so steep where the average speed is always high.
 
Jul 18, 2010
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rhubroma said:
Bawh!! I never said otherwise.

But the climb wasn't steep enough for Conta do do more. The "waiting" for Scarponi was insignificant and only held him up, as he immediately demonstrated.

Rujano was able to follow the first two accelerations because he was riding on sheer determination and desperation, though the easy grade worked in his favor.

In a head to head match, especially on a steeper climb, Rujano would have been decidely a notch below. His initial advantage saved him for as long as it did.

I may not have my "facts" straight, but you don't know squat about bike racing.

I'm personally not disputing that Contador would've dropped Rujano sooner under different circumstances. We seem to agree that Rujano showed exceptional determination but where we disagree is this scientific analysis that you've come up with to support.....I'm not even certain of what your point is. There had to be a bit of hard earned talent and ability that allowed Rujano to stick with Contador in addition to the "sheer determination and desparation".

Using your analysis why did this same "initial advantage" not aid the earlier escapees? I'm certain it would be because they had been out there in the break for so long, fatigue would not have allowed it. So your argument is that if Rujano had decided not to attack when he did, but decided instead to respond to Contador's attack, he would've ended up in the same position in the end as Scarponi, 17 seconds behind the group of elite chasers and 1 minute plus behind Contador?
 
La Pandera said:
I'm personally not disputing that Contador would've dropped Rujano sooner under different circumstances. We seem to agree that Rujano showed exceptional determination but where we disagree is this scientific analysis that you've come up with to support.....I'm not even certain of what your point is. There had to be a bit of hard earned talent and ability that allowed Rujano to stick with Contador in addition to the "sheer determination and desparation".

Using your analysis why did this same "initial advantage" not aid the earlier escapees? I'm certain it would be because they had been out there in the break for so long, fatigue would not have allowed it. So your argument is that if Rujano had decided not to attack when he did, but decided instead to respond to Contador's attack, he would've ended up in the same position in the end as Scarponi, 17 seconds behind the group of elite chases and 1 minute plus behind Contador?

There's nothing "scientific" about my analysis.

But experience.

I can't, obviously, say where exactly Rujano would have finished, had he had to respond to AC's attack. But I can say with certainty that he would not have been dangling on with him at the end struggling to hold his wheel as he did.

AC would have finished alone from 3k out. ;)
 
Apr 12, 2010
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Lupetto said:
McEwen and Brown out of time limit. Why is Cavendish still in? 26:28 was the limit for today.

Because he did it in 26.35 the same as the other ten who finished with him. I assume McEwen & Brown were even further back
 
Jul 18, 2010
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rhubroma said:
There's nothing "scientific" about my analysis.

But experience.

I can't, obviously, say where exactly Rujano would have finished, had he had to respond to AC's attack. But I can say with certainty that he would not have been dangling on with him at the end struggling to hold his wheel as he did.

AC would have finished alone from 3k out. ;)

"Scientific" was probably the wrong word. I agree though that based on how Contador blasted off on his initial acceleration that the effort simply to match him would have put most of his rivals into a bit of trouble, with their demise an unavoidable eventuality. His (Contador's) performance was nothing short of magnificent.
 
May 15, 2010
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rhubroma said:
Yes but Rujano had already attacked previously and was up the road. Conta bridged up, kept him dangling and then, as soon as the road got steep again, accelerated and droped him just before the finish.

If Rujano had had to follow Conta, like Scarponi, he wouldn't have been able to follow. The gap he had helped him hang on longer.

+1

Rujano inconclusive simply based on hanging onto Conti today.
 
To me, the 2nd best (of what else could we talk) seemed Nibali.
Clearly Scarponi made a mistake today, I hope he will pace himself better next time.
Surely the experience of last year Vuelta worked in his favour, that's evident.
I'm a bit puzzled about Szmidt... he would have proved invaluable to Nibali, maybe he is not in good form yet? (maybe he will be in good form for the TdF - Basso :().
 
La Pandera said:
"Scientific" was probably the wrong word. I agree though that based on how Contador blasted off on his initial acceleration that the effort simply to match him would have put most of his rivals into a bit of trouble, with their demise an unavoidable eventuality. His (Contador's) performance was nothing short of magnificent.

Ahh...thanks, that's all I was talking about!
 
Climbing said:
To me, the 2nd best (of what else could we talk) seemed Nibali.
Clearly Scarponi made a mistake today, I hope he will pace himself better next time.
Surely the experience of last year Vuelta worked in his favour, that's evident.
I'm a bit puzzled about Szmidt... he would have proved invaluable to Nibali, maybe he is not in good form yet? (maybe he will be in good form for the TdF - Basso :().

I'd agree with you on Nibali, though he lacked courage.

I know he's a deisel, but when ya gotta go, ya gotta fùckin go!!!
 
Jul 18, 2010
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Contador doesn't get credit for his smarts but if you notice he often will time his accelerations for just when the moto's are passing, slipping into their draft and almost matching their initial speed. Those opponents left unawares are better served waiting for some other poor sucker to try to bridge to his wheel or simply hoping that they can reel him back in collectively. The fact that he said that he was feeling good should be a really bad sign for his opponents since I don't recall him ever saying that in last year's Tour where his entire performance was quite below that of his 2009 Tour and it showed.
That is one the reason that I so much enjoy watching him race. When he knows he has the legs, he is the hammer and I guess everyone else are the nails. Watching him out of the saddle, accelerating like he does makes me just shake my head in amazement. We are witnessing greatness, regardless of what the future holds.
 
The Hitch said:
Wow. The first 100 times i thought Ruben was just taking the **** out of Ryo Hazuki with his Rujano comments.

But now hes defending RUjano big time.

Did he convert you on the Cauberg Dekker T???
No it was a nice race and you got to see it how it was. Rujano was the 2nd strongest rider today. He came back quite a few times when the commentators already declared him dropped. Often coming back from as far as 25 meters.

Too bad most people can't give credit or have forgotten about that already. They seem to have forgotten completely about the accelerations.
I call that selective memory. Wanting to forget so they can justify their own thoughts.
;)
 
rhubroma said:
Because easy grades help with the acceleration, no matter how light you are. I mean, we're still talking about a climb, not a sprint finish. Real climbers need hard grades to make the difference.

The selection comes with the terrain. In fact on the last steep part is where Albero finally unhitched him.

Easy grade? I watched back the video of the final kilometers and took the profile of the climb with them.

Contador initial acceleration: At a 7,8% part (one of the steepest parts of the final 6km)
Contadors acceleration that dropped Scarponi: At a 7,5% part (again on of the steepest parts)
Contadors in between acceleration to try and drop Rujano: 3km before the finish at a 7,2% part (2nd final steeper part)
Contadors final acceleration that dropped Rujano: 5% part (just after the final 7,2% part at 2km), then going on to a 1,5% part. (and even then Rujano was coming back again in the final 500 meters)

Your words don't add up to the facts unfortunately
 
Rujano's a very good tempo rider. He went with Contador on the one that dropped Scarponi, he got out of the saddle then had to get back in it and ride back on when Contador tried to drop him the first time, but wasn't dropped for long. On the final acceleration that dropped him he tried to go with it but couldn't stay out of the saddle as long, had to get back into his saddle and ride tempo. And even then he was almost making it back; maybe even would have done had the climb been a bit longer. Not to say Contador couldn't then have accelerated again and inevitably dropped him à la Sastre after Lance bridging on Monte Petrano, of course.

I was reminded of the stage Moncoutié won in the 2008 Vuelta, to Pla de Beret, with Contador and Valverde trading attacks, and Igor Antón yo-yoing off the back of the group, being dropped by each acceleration, for more time each time, but always coming back.