Giuseppe Martinelli: Contador already better than Armstrong (and Indurain)

[movingtarget]

No one will surpass the Cannibal's palmares. Contador is approaching the level of some of the greats but I don't think he is there just yet. Martinelli's comments are a little hysterical. It will all depend on how much improvement there is in riders like Andy Schleck. Schleck showed last year that he is getting much closer to matching Contador. If Schleck could get one win over Contador in a grand tour it could all change but the problem is at the moment, Contador is still a much better time triallist even though their climbing skills are on a similar level. Also Contador does not seem to make as many mistakes and his bike handling is also superior. Little things that can make the difference of a few seconds here and there. The difference betwen winning and losing.

 

[El Pistolero]

Nah, he didn´t suck wheel all the time. Tourmalet (-91), Sestriére (-92), Galibier (-93), Hautacam (-94) and La Plagne (-95). That is an urban myth who was created due to his efforts in the Time Trials.

He didn´t just win in the time trials. He blew everyone out of sight (we talk about minutes).



I am one of those who think Indurain could win at every mountain stage he wanted to. At least if the climb wasn´t too steep.

Have a look at this clip from La Plagne -95. A display not far off from Contas Etna-win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhEKRjhLuds

The power in that man was from another world.

That's why I said "And if not, he almost never showed it"

Like you say, could of won a lot more, but didn't. It's part of the reason why I find Contador a better climber already. Angliru, Verbier, Arcalis, Etna, Plateau-de-Beille, Peyresourde, Galibier, Mende, etc

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

LA has won more Tours than AC, but AC has won a wider variety of big races against a wider variety of the competition (in addition to the Tour: Giro, Vuelta Espana, Paris-Nice) and lesser races (a fistfull of Volta's and Vuelta's like Algarve, Catalunya, Castilla y Leon, Murcia, Pais Vasco, Setmana Catalana). And he's done all this at an earlier age, with a lot more left in the tank.

To me that makes him a better racer, as opposed to a more prolific racer in one event.

 

[No_Balls]

That's why I said "And if not, he almost never showed it"

Like you say, could of won a lot more, but didn't. It's part of the reason why I find Contador a better climber already. Angliru, Verbier, Arcalis, Etna, Plateau-de-Beille, Peyresourde, Galibier, Mende, etc

There is no doubt Contador (i am a fan too) could be seen as the better climber. But i am not too sure he would have made up the time lost in the time trials if they were racing together.

Never underestimate Migs climbing. He always found another gear uphill when faced new and upcomers (like Pantani in the old days).

 

[No_Balls]

Agreed. Indurain was content to mark his opponents, looking at the big picture: winning the Tour. He was humble to a fault, not looking for total domination in the mountains and allowing others to gain glory by winning stages that had no bearing on his overall success. I believe one year, possibly growing tired of the media proclaiming his lack of aggressiveness in the mountains, he decided to put on a display and win a mtf.

All this talk of Indurain has inspired me to snatch up the 5 Tour set of his wins that was relatively recently made available.

Were can i find that? Indurain inspired me to cycling so i admit, i will always defend him.

I bet that year was 1994 when he got his most rampant win ever (nearly six minutes overall). He attacked and got away on the moderately steep Hautacam, lost to Leblanc who had attacked earlier, also as crushing the opposition at Mount Ventoux. That was after he had destroyed the field in the Bergerac time-trial (Rominger 2:00 minutes after).

He was immense that year.

 

[Angliru]

Were can i find that? Indurain inspired me to cycling so i admit, i will always defend him.

I bet that year was 1994 when he got his most rampant win ever (nearly six minutes overall). He attacked and got away on the moderately steep Hautacam, lost to Leblanc who had attacked earlier, also as crushing the opposition at Mount Ventoux. That was after he had destroyed the field in the Bergerac time-trial (Rominger 2:00 minutes after).

He was immense that year.

That could've been it. Once I order and examine in detail the dvd's of his 5 years of Tour domination I'll be able to let you know. Another example of his humility is how he rode for Abraham Olano in Colombia, marking Pantani's attacks, allowing Olano to win the gold. Indurain had already won the gold in the ITT. In that road race IMO Indurain was the strongest rider and could've taken a double in the ITT and the road race if he so wanted.

 

[gilbertador]

Indurain never fully dominated the mountains but killed every tt and also did 2 giro tour doubles.....
Lance killed all mountains and timetrials in his tours......
Contador has the full set of gts but doesnt really totally dominate mountains see rasmussen and shleck, his tt is also a lot worse than a prime lance and indurain, hes close adding in short stage races but hes got 5 gts not 7 and so hes behind, however he is closing in rapidly!
If he escapes a doping ban in June and you ask this q in 3 years he have surpassed Indurain Hinault coppi Armstrong and Anquetil in GTs no doubt

 

[Archibald]

Did I write that you voted yes ?
Better read, man. Didn't even look.

You know, sometimes it's about quality - not quantity and besides that, you again just ignore some results.
I get touchy about people not making much sense and people who just ignore and go on.

Well anyway, opening this poll in the CN-forum can only have one result.
But great to see so much people making sense here.
Sadly and like always, not enough.

Good result for Lance. Impressive.

quality? sure, dauphine is quality, but which is higher quality for you, the tours of Georgia and Luxembourg or Paris-Nice, Pais Vasco, Catalunya, Murcia, Algarve?

and yep, I ignored your hero winning the US nationals, just as I ignored El Pist's hero's winning the Spanish national TT. Pretty much cancel each other out really. Not much else worth mentioning really, but fill in the gaps all you like.
drag up and put out there every minor race/stage win you like... you demand facts and that nothing's ignored, so make sure you list 'em all.
knock yourself out

 

[jamiephillips]

It's impossible to say as they never raced each other.

*edit* ok but Lance's "comeback" doesn't really count!

 

[GoAndyGo]

I would pay big money to see 2002-2003 Lance Armstrong race a present Alberto Contador. Lance lost 2 years of his younger bike racing career 1996-1998 to fighting cancer. 7 straight TDF's against, Ulrich, Basso, Vino and Kloden. He also won Fleche Wallone, the Criterium du Dauphine twice and points once, San Sabastian, US Nationals, Worlds, and tour of Luxembourg and Suisse including 22 TDF stage wins.

Lance wasn't a huge participant in the GIRO and the Vuelta which Contador participates in almost consistantly.

I still think that Lance overall has accomplished more but Contador has alot more time to ride.

Depending on the UCI's decision on the clenbuterol Contador may have some of his GT's revocated.

 

[Angliru]

I would pay big money to see 2002-2003 Lance Armstrong race a present Alberto Contador. Lance lost 2 years of his younger bike racing career 1996-1998 to fighting cancer. 7 straight TDF's against, Ulrich, Basso, Vino and Kloden. He also won Fleche Wallone, the Criterium du Dauphine twice and points once, San Sabastian, US Nationals, Worlds, and tour of Luxembourg and Suisse including 22 TDF stage wins.

Lance wasn't a huge participant in the GIRO and the Vuelta which Contador participates in almost consistantly.

I still think that Lance overall has accomplished more but Contador has alot more time to ride.

Depending on the UCI's decision on the clenbuterol Contador may have some of his GT's revocated.

As far as I know they can only touch the 2010 Tour and this year's Giro, should he win.

 

[saganftw]

As far as I know they can only touch the 2010 Tour and this year's Giro, should he win.

if contador gets ban he will never be better than LA,indurain in the eyes of cycling fans

 

[Archibald]

if contador gets ban he will never be better than LA,indurain in the eyes of cycling fans

that all depends on the final outcome of Mr Novitzky's work...

 

[Jan the Man]

if contador gets ban he will never be better than LA,indurain in the eyes of cycling fans

I am a cycling fan and I believe that Contador is better than Armstrong even if he gets banned...

 

[Angliru]

if contador gets ban he will never be better than LA,indurain in the eyes of cycling fans

...and if LA gets convicted what does that do to his standing in this conversation, in your opinion?

 

[saganftw]

...and if LA gets convicted what does that do to his standing in this conversation, in your opinion?

then its obviously one wrong each so they are even lol

i ve already posted my opinion that contador is proly better than LA and indurain,however if one is busted for doping and other is not,every conversation about who is better will end with "but he was abusing PED" - mark my words,if contador gets his ban,TdF and giro stripped there is goin to be a lot of fun on this forum

i d like to note that i think all 3 mentioned athletes was/are using PED

 

[Cobblestoned]

quality? sure, dauphine is quality, but which is higher quality for you, the tours of Georgia and Luxembourg or Paris-Nice, Pais Vasco, Catalunya, Murcia, Algarve?

and yep, I ignored your hero winning the US nationals, just as I ignored El Pist's hero's winning the Spanish national TT. Pretty much cancel each other out really. Not much else worth mentioning really, but fill in the gaps all you like.
drag up and put out there every minor race/stage win you like... you demand facts and that nothing's ignored, so make sure you list 'em all.
knock yourself out

OH, how odd.
Good luck by rewriting history and setting your own standards, using your own results lists. You have all the support here - whatever that may look like.
Poll's outcome says it all.
CN forum rewriting history again and setting the standards. lol

Thank you to all the people making some sense.
My job is done here - everything is said.

 

[warmfuzzies]

Better than Armstrong and Indurain at what, exactly? Denying evidence-based accusations of cheating? Looking sporty in his team kit? Screwing other competitors during the races? There are lots of criteria on which to judge this super-duper important question.

 

[luckyboy]

Better than Armstrong and Indurain at what, exactly? Denying evidence-based accusations of cheating? Screwing other competitors during the races?

I think we know Armstrong was/is unrivalled in these disciplines.

 

[robertocarlos]

Indurain never fully dominated the mountains but killed every tt and also did 2 giro tour doubles.....
Lance killed all mountains and timetrials in his tours......
Contador has the full set of gts but doesnt really totally dominate mountains see rasmussen and shleck, his tt is also a lot worse than a prime lance and indurain, hes close adding in short stage races but hes got 5 gts not 7 and so hes behind, however he is closing in rapidly!
If he escapes a doping ban in June and you ask this q in 3 years he have surpassed Indurain Hinault coppi Armstrong and Anquetil in GTs no doubt

lance's tt might have been slightly better, but if we are talking about '09 then contador's mighht be equal or better. contador is a different kind of rider than what lance was but is as effective or even more effective on winning (at gts) than lance ever was. what people like about contador is that eventhought he downplays his chances to win he always gives it a go. i like contador but i still think he needs to win outside of his comfort zone. if one of the schlecks has won lbl he shoyuld get one too, i would love for him to win fw and give il giro di lombardia a shot. come on alberto everybody knows you can win stage races but consider some of the classics too, not p-r or msr.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

knows you can win stage races but consider some of the classics too, not p-r or msr.

Now that would be interesting, contador blowing up the field at the Cipressa and poggio to take a solo win