Great Descenders or Climax Fighter

[Laplaz]

Currently i would say Sagan, Kwiatkowski and Mohoric are the best descenders.

 

[skippo12]

Nibali is still good but not even close to his younger self. In his Liquigas days he was completly crazy.
Most riders take less risk as they grow older.

I think Nibali nowadays only takes risks in huge races he's peaked for, where back in the day he'd just take a lot of risk by default.

Recently I watched a descent of Nibali from 2011 (Passo Fedaia) and it was some crazy stuff. Overtaking cars while cornering. Pure insanity!

70km/h and Nibali decided to take off his rainjacket...will never forget the reaction of the eurosport crew. That stage was awesome...favorites thought they had buried Nibali but he made up at least 45s on the decent and was back in Contadors group.

 

[huge]

Re: Re:

I wonder if weight is an important factor? Someone like Pozzovivo is great downhill but he barely weights 100 pounds.

Of course it is, and Pozzovivo is not so great downhill...

Of course it isn't. Basic law of physics.

Bigger guys might have an advantage only due to their greater power. They can push harder on a downhill. Nothing to do with weight itself.
On the other end a small guy might have the advantage of less air resistance. Again nothing to do with weight itself. So when they are coasting a small guy like Pozzovivo might be faster than a big one like Cancellara.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Fignon is the best decender I've ever seen

In the current peloton, apart from the ones already mentioned, Bardet is a great decender too.

Other than that, we could probably easily mention 50-60 riders in the peloton, incl. sprinters, lead out men, puncheurs, road captains, etc. - we just never notice them, because they are not important to the race usually, in the big mountains, even if making up 2 minutes on a big decent

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Re: Re:

I wonder if weight is an important factor? Someone like Pozzovivo is great downhill but he barely weights 100 pounds.

Of course it is, and Pozzovivo is not so great downhill...

Of course it isn't. Basic law of physics.

Bigger guys might have an advantage only due to their greater power. They can push harder on a downhill. Nothing to do with weight itself.
On the other end a small guy might have the advantage of less air resistance. Again nothing to do with weight itself. So when they are coasting a small guy like Pozzovivo might be faster than a big one like Cancellara.

I recall a similar discussion in a thread years ago, partly because I made the same mistake. Only if descending on a vacuum.

 

[Sestriere]

Re: Re:

I wonder if weight is an important factor? Someone like Pozzovivo is great downhill but he barely weights 100 pounds.

Of course it is, and Pozzovivo is not so great downhill...

Of course it isn't. Basic law of physics.

Bigger guys might have an advantage only due to their greater power. They can push harder on a downhill. Nothing to do with weight itself.
On the other end a small guy might have the advantage of less air resistance. Again nothing to do with weight itself. So when they are coasting a small guy like Pozzovivo might be faster than a big one like Cancellara.

I think your physics is a bit too basic as you are not factoring in air resistance. If they were cycling in a vacuum you would be correct (Why would David Scott have dropped feather and hammer on the moon to showcase this if you could just do it on earth?) Inside the atmosphere heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones, or in this case, when two descending riders have the same frontal area, the same cw-value and the same amount of friction from the road, the heavier rider will reach a higher terminal velocity.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

I wonder if weight is an important factor? Someone like Pozzovivo is great downhill but he barely weights 100 pounds.

Of course it is, and Pozzovivo is not so great downhill...

Of course it isn't. Basic law of physics.

Bigger guys might have an advantage only due to their greater power. They can push harder on a downhill. Nothing to do with weight itself.
On the other end a small guy might have the advantage of less air resistance. Again nothing to do with weight itself. So when they are coasting a small guy like Pozzovivo might be faster than a big one like Cancellara.

I can't even

Gravity does more work for bigger riders, frontal surface area doesn't nearly increase linearly with weight.

 

[Scarponi]

The stage where Evans caught the lead group in the Tour of Utah and put the inside maneuver on them to win, also in Evans book he mentions how nuts Nibali was when he was young around 2010

 

[42x16ss]

Nibali is still good but not even close to his younger self. In his Liquigas days he was completly crazy.
Most riders take less risk as they grow older.

I think Nibali nowadays only takes risks in huge races he's peaked for, where back in the day he'd just take a lot of risk by default.

Recently I watched a descent of Nibali from 2011 (Passo Fedaia) and it was some crazy stuff. Overtaking cars while cornering. Pure insanity!

70km/h and Nibali decided to take off his rainjacket...will never forget the reaction of the eurosport crew. That stage was awesome...favorites thought they had buried Nibali but he made up at least 45s on the decent and was back in Contadors group.

I remember an early stage in the 2014 Tour, Nibali dropped back to the team car for a word with the DS and 3-4 domestiques dropped back to bring him up. Nibali was halfway back through the convoy before they even knew where he was. Nibali was hitting gaps they wouldn’t even go near and dropped them al :lol:

 

[42x16ss]

The stage where Evans caught the lead group in the Tour of Utah and put the inside maneuver on them to win, also in Evans book he mentions how nuts Nibali was when he was young around 2010

Evans was pretty good but descended within himself unless his race hung in the balance. He had a few fabulous descents in his day but usually stayed cautious.

 

[The Hegelian]

Have to mention The Dawg here. Certainly not a Bardet or Nibali, but has clearly learned how to attack a descent.

 

[Nirvana]

Re: Re:

In order of history:

Hushovd
Cancellara
Sagan

Sagan's performance in TdS a few years back was spectacular.

None of the current GC riders has much to offer (other than the younger Nibali) other than an opportunity of a time loss.

You call that history? Are people forgetting this easily the master in descending? Paolo Savoldelli! Il Falco

Savoldelli was a complete and total lunatic. Real heart in mouth stuff.

Virenque was also a superb descender, as was Sean Yates. Samuel Sanchez was excellent, as was Pantani.

Porte is up there amongst the worst I’ve seen, along with Basso, Wigans and Frank Schleck.

Savoldelli was all but a madman, his skills were simply so good that he was easily in control even if he braked a lot less than all other riders. I'm pretty sure he never crashed during a descent in his entire career.
The real madmen are the riders that are not so good in descending and so they need to take a lot of risk to gain time and often they crashed because they usually go beyond the limit. Nibali is an example.

 

[Gigs_98]

I think Nibali's descending is both over and underrated. Some people think he is one of the best descenders in the whole peloton on par with guys like sagan which he simply isn't. But then there are also many people claiming he is only a risk taker with average descending skills, which is complete nonsense too. He doesn't even crash that often when he attacks. His crash in the olympics is actually the only one I remember and half the peloton crashed there (Maybe a slight exaggeration) That descent was complete madness. His descent on the fedaia in 2011, his two lombardia wins and even last years win in the giro queen stage were fabulous displays of his descending

 

[Nirvana]

I think Nibali's descending is both over and underrated. Some people think he is one of the best descenders in the whole peloton on par with guys like sagan which he simply isn't. But then there are also many people claiming he is only a risk taker with average descending skills, which is complete nonsense too. He doesn't even crash that often when he attacks. His crash in the olympics is actually the only one I remember and half the peloton crashed there (Maybe a slight exaggeration) That descent was complete madness. His descent on the fedaia in 2011, his two lombardia wins and even last years win in the giro queen stage were fabulous displays of his descending

There are a lot of crashes of Nibali:

*Stage 5 of 2009 Eneco Tour in the descent just before the finish in Sittard-Geleen.
*Montalcino stage of 2010 Giro in the descent before the sterrato.
*Lombardia 2010 in the descent of Sormano.
*Lombardia 2012 in the descent of Ghisallo.
*Pescara stage of 2013 Giro in the last descent trying to drop Wiggins.
*World Championship 2013 in the descent of Fiesole before penultimate lap.
*Lombardia 2013 in early stages of the race.
*Stage 19 of 2016 Tour in descent to Domancy before the final climb to Sanit-Gervais Mont Blanc.
*Angliru stage of 2017 Vuelta in the descent of Cordal.

And maybe I'm even missing some on minor races.

 

[Gigs_98]

I think Nibali's descending is both over and underrated. Some people think he is one of the best descenders in the whole peloton on par with guys like sagan which he simply isn't. But then there are also many people claiming he is only a risk taker with average descending skills, which is complete nonsense too. He doesn't even crash that often when he attacks. His crash in the olympics is actually the only one I remember and half the peloton crashed there (Maybe a slight exaggeration) That descent was complete madness. His descent on the fedaia in 2011, his two lombardia wins and even last years win in the giro queen stage were fabulous displays of his descending

There are a lot of crashes of Nibali:

*Stage 5 of 2009 Eneco Tour in the descent just before the finish in Sittard-Geleen.
*Montalcino stage of 2010 Giro in the descent before the sterrato.
*Lombardia 2010 in the descent of Sormano.
*Lombardia 2012 in the descent of Ghisallo.
*Pescara stage of 2013 Giro in the last descent trying to drop Wiggins.
*World Championship 2013 in the descent of Fiesole before penultimate lap.
*Lombardia 2013 in early stages of the race.
*Stage 19 of 2016 Tour in descent to Domancy before the final climb to Sanit-Gervais Mont Blanc.
*Angliru stage of 2017 Vuelta in the descent of Cordal.

And maybe I'm even missing some on minor races.

But was he attacking in all of these races and was he always the person to cause the crash. Every rider crashes now and then

 

[Red Rick]

Nibali is still good but not even close to his younger self. In his Liquigas days he was completly crazy.
Most riders take less risk as they grow older.

I think Nibali nowadays only takes risks in huge races he's peaked for, where back in the day he'd just take a lot of risk by default.

Recently I watched a descent of Nibali from 2011 (Passo Fedaia) and it was some crazy stuff. Overtaking cars while cornering. Pure insanity!

70km/h and Nibali decided to take off his rainjacket...will never forget the reaction of the eurosport crew. That stage was awesome...favorites thought they had buried Nibali but he made up at least 45s on the decent and was back in Contadors group.

I remember an early stage in the 2014 Tour, Nibali dropped back to the team car for a word with the DS and 3-4 domestiques dropped back to bring him up. Nibali was halfway back through the convoy before they even knew where he was. Nibali was hitting gaps they wouldn’t even go near and dropped them al :lol:

Back when Nibali was somewhat in the fight for white at the 2008 Tour, one of Ten Dam or Tankink came up with

"I let Nibali go on the descent"
"Why?"
"He was fighting for white, and I didn't want to die"

 

[Red Rick]

I think Nibali's descending is both over and underrated. Some people think he is one of the best descenders in the whole peloton on par with guys like sagan which he simply isn't. But then there are also many people claiming he is only a risk taker with average descending skills, which is complete nonsense too. He doesn't even crash that often when he attacks. His crash in the olympics is actually the only one I remember and half the peloton crashed there (Maybe a slight exaggeration) That descent was complete madness. His descent on the fedaia in 2011, his two lombardia wins and even last years win in the giro queen stage were fabulous displays of his descending

I don't see many people claim him to be as good as Sagan, but I think it matters a lot that as an elite climber he actually gets into a lot of situations where being a great descender can decide big races. He's forced the decisive selection on a descent in 2 monuments and 1 GT, and he wouldn't have won MSR without a great descent. Also forced the selection on the penultimate descent of Vista Chinesa in Rio.

What races has Sagan won because of descending skills? It helped a tiny bit in his first WC. And for the rest it's mostly been looking pretty in breakaways in stage races.

 

[staubsauger]

Pantani was a great descender with his very own style prior to his Milano-Torino car crash. He took significantly lesser risks in the aftermath of that incident.

Rasmussen was a quite handy descender due to his mountain bike skills as well. In fact he was really good at cornering for lightweight like him. Since he was the training partner of Fuglsang he might have helped Jakub becoming such a great bike handler as well.

Didn't Savoldelli make up like 3 minutes on the Pantani group down the Fauniera? Rumor goes there ain't no live pictures of his downhill ride, because the motorbike driver couldn't follow him save as he was flying down the mountain. That's why they call him the hawk. I think either Mayomaniac, Eshnar or Giggs told me that story last year or so.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

Pantani was a great descender with his very own style prior to his Milano-Torino car crash. He took significantly lesser risks in the aftermath of that incident.

Rasmussen was a quite handy descender due to his mountain bike skills as well. In fact he was really good at cornering for lightweight like him. Since he was the training partner of Fuglsang he might have helped Jakub becoming such a great bike handler as well.

Didn't Savoldelli make up like 3 minutes on the Pantani group down the Fauniera? Rumor goes there ain't no live pictures of his downhill ride, because the motorbike driver couldn't follow him save as he was flying down the mountain. That's why they call him the hawk. I think either Mayomaniac, Eshnar or Giggs told me that story last year or so.

Well, I wasn't even a year old back when it happened so I probably didn't tell it.
That said, I know the stage you are referring to and you can watch parts of it on YouTube where it looks as if that myth is actually true. You can see savoldelli overtaking the camera moto with ridiculous speed, then he waited in the pantani group for a few seconds before he seemingly effortlessly dropping everyone else in the group although there weren't even any hard turns at that point

 

[Durden93]

Re: Re:

I wonder if weight is an important factor? Someone like Pozzovivo is great downhill but he barely weights 100 pounds.

Of course it is, and Pozzovivo is not so great downhill...

Of course it isn't. Basic law of physics.

Bigger guys might have an advantage only due to their greater power. They can push harder on a downhill. Nothing to do with weight itself.
On the other end a small guy might have the advantage of less air resistance. Again nothing to do with weight itself. So when they are coasting a small guy like Pozzovivo might be faster than a big one like Cancellara.

I can't even

Gravity does more work for bigger riders, frontal surface area doesn't nearly increase linearly with weight.

This would make sense if gaps were created on the flats of a descent, but they typically aren’t. They are established in the corners. I think the main reason that heavier guys are better descenders is because you need great bikehandling skills to excel in the classics and these bikehandling skills translate well to descending.

 

[Durden93]

I think Nibali's descending is both over and underrated. Some people think he is one of the best descenders in the whole peloton on par with guys like sagan which he simply isn't. But then there are also many people claiming he is only a risk taker with average descending skills, which is complete nonsense too. He doesn't even crash that often when he attacks. His crash in the olympics is actually the only one I remember and half the peloton crashed there (Maybe a slight exaggeration) That descent was complete madness. His descent on the fedaia in 2011, his two lombardia wins and even last years win in the giro queen stage were fabulous displays of his descending

I don't see many people claim him to be as good as Sagan, but I think it matters a lot that as an elite climber he actually gets into a lot of situations where being a great descender can decide big races. He's forced the decisive selection on a descent in 2 monuments and 1 GT, and he wouldn't have won MSR without a great descent. Also forced the selection on the penultimate descent of Vista Chinesa in Rio.

What races has Sagan won because of descending skills? It helped a tiny bit in his first WC. And for the rest it's mostly been looking pretty in breakaways in stage races.

It’s a massive understatement to say that Sagan’s bikehandling only helpmed him a little bit in Richmond. His gap to GVA after Libby Hill was about 1 second, maybe two. Sagan won by about 3 seconds after celebrating for the final 50m. The corners he took in Richmond blew his rivals away.

 

[Netserk]

I think Nibali's descending is both over and underrated. Some people think he is one of the best descenders in the whole peloton on par with guys like sagan which he simply isn't. But then there are also many people claiming he is only a risk taker with average descending skills, which is complete nonsense too. He doesn't even crash that often when he attacks. His crash in the olympics is actually the only one I remember and half the peloton crashed there (Maybe a slight exaggeration) That descent was complete madness. His descent on the fedaia in 2011, his two lombardia wins and even last years win in the giro queen stage were fabulous displays of his descending

There are a lot of crashes of Nibali:

*Stage 5 of 2009 Eneco Tour in the descent just before the finish in Sittard-Geleen.
*Montalcino stage of 2010 Giro in the descent before the sterrato.
*Lombardia 2010 in the descent of Sormano.
*Lombardia 2012 in the descent of Ghisallo.
*Pescara stage of 2013 Giro in the last descent trying to drop Wiggins.
*World Championship 2013 in the descent of Fiesole before penultimate lap.
*Lombardia 2013 in early stages of the race.
*Stage 19 of 2016 Tour in descent to Domancy before the final climb to Sanit-Gervais Mont Blanc.
*Angliru stage of 2017 Vuelta in the descent of Cordal.

And maybe I'm even missing some on minor races.

He does crash once in a while on wet descents, but some of those crashes are either not his fault or not on descents.

 

[Nirvana]

The only one we can't be sure if it was on a descent is the one in 2013 Lombardia because was before the coverage started, the others are all on descents and bar the 2016 Tour one with him trying to gain time alone or trying to make the selection with some team mates helping him.

 

[Netserk]

Firenze wasn't on the Fiesole descent. And it certainly wasn't an attack.

 

[Red Rick]

I think Nibali's descending is both over and underrated. Some people think he is one of the best descenders in the whole peloton on par with guys like sagan which he simply isn't. But then there are also many people claiming he is only a risk taker with average descending skills, which is complete nonsense too. He doesn't even crash that often when he attacks. His crash in the olympics is actually the only one I remember and half the peloton crashed there (Maybe a slight exaggeration) That descent was complete madness. His descent on the fedaia in 2011, his two lombardia wins and even last years win in the giro queen stage were fabulous displays of his descending

I don't see many people claim him to be as good as Sagan, but I think it matters a lot that as an elite climber he actually gets into a lot of situations where being a great descender can decide big races. He's forced the decisive selection on a descent in 2 monuments and 1 GT, and he wouldn't have won MSR without a great descent. Also forced the selection on the penultimate descent of Vista Chinesa in Rio.

What races has Sagan won because of descending skills? It helped a tiny bit in his first WC. And for the rest it's mostly been looking pretty in breakaways in stage races.

It’s a massive understatement to say that Sagan’s bikehandling only helpmed him a little bit in Richmond. His gap to GVA after Libby Hill was about 1 second, maybe two. Sagan won by about 3 seconds after celebrating for the final 50m. The corners he took in Richmond blew his rivals away.

It's one 90 degree corner lol. He dropped them uphill and the rest was GvA and Boasson staring at each other