Green jersey - Don't like the way it's won

[Big GMaC]

There's Yellow in Paris.

There's stage wins.

Everything else is rubbish.

Shhhh. Don't tell The Shack.

There is the Teams!

 

[auscyclefan94]

I already had this feeling last year, but this year it's even worse. The green jersey is becoming a bit of a joke like the climbers jersey. Because Hushovd, even though admirable, really shouldn't be wearing that
It's meant for the most consistent sprinter, which is, this Tour, Ale-Jet Petacchi.

Yet, because Hushovd wins a cobble stage and goes into breakaways in (middle) mountain stages, he is the one wearing the jersey.
Same reason why he won it last year.
In real mass-sprints Hushovd has trouble even reaching top 5.

To me, it's a bit of a joke. And although I previously never had something against him, I start to dislike Hushovd for the way he takes the green jersey. I'm just against it.
Damn Petacchi should wear it, and last year Cavendish should have won it.

What can be done against it? No more intermediate sprints for points in mountain stages! And don't give 35 points in cobble stages!
Any more ideas?

Your way off the mark. Green jersey is the most consisten finisher and having the intermediate points gives the jersey more interest as riders have to go out and chase points. I think it is great. Yes it is mosttly about the finishes but to be consistent the sprinters should have to gout and chase the victory for the jersey.

 

[Kingsley A]

If it was just for the sprints and no intermediates, and just for the sprint stages, you may as well just grab Cav (or in years gone by Petacchi, McEwen, Cipo, whoever) and hand them the jersey on day 1 for all the good the competition will be. The likes of Cav get enough reward for their performance by winning multiple stages. Is that not enough for them? Do they really need the points jersey (POINTS JERSEY) to be biased even MORE in favour of sprinters? After all, at the other two GTs all stages are equal, meaning that the jersey is a much more accurate painting of the consistent riders in the race. In the Giro for a while we had Farrar and Cadel Evans fighting over the jersey, and Vino and Evans getting mixed up in bunch sprints. In the Vuelta you had Alejandro Valverde holding it for a few days. That to me is more interesting as a competition than saying 'oh, the best sprinter gets it' because the best sprinter inevitably wins a bunch of stages anyway.

+1

Le Tour already has it's points jersey more biased in favour of pure sprinters than the other two GTs. Mambo95's suggestion of changing the points available to benefit stage winners more may be a good one but on the whole, I like things the way they are. I think it is great when riders like Thor go hunting for points on stages they know they can't win.

There are different rules and different jerseys awarded in races throughout the year. This gives lots of riders opportunities to shine (beyond mountain goats who can TT). The "can a classics rider with a good sprint beat a pure sprinter?" conundrum is something that makes Le Tour more interesting, from my point of view.

I'm a Cav fan (a controversial position, I know) but am hoping the battle for green goes all the way to Paris, with two different ways of scoring points between Hushvod and Petacchi keeping us the edge of our seats until then!

 

[Mambo95]

The problem with this discussion is that is the worst possible time to have it. We currently have arguably the most dominant sprinter in the history of the Tour, and he's someone who divides public opinion quite a lot.

As a result

a) Other sprinters, most especially Hushovd, have changed their green getting tactics fairly radically from the approach of riders in the past.

b) Opinions of posters will, a lot of the time but not always, by lead somewhat by whether the poster is pro or anti Cavendish.

 

[benpounder]

It's meant for the most consistent sprinter.../QUOTE]iIt is not a sprinter's jersey, it is the points jersey. That sprinters typically win the green jersey says more about the nature of the TdF (not just how they award points - Mt stages are different than flat stages - nor the points they award for intermediate sprints, but the nature of the course as well). In both the Giro and Vuelta, the points jersey is awarded to the rider who consistantly finishes strong irrespective of route.

IMO, if you want a true sprinters jersey, then hold a series of 5-10km mass start "team time trials".

 

[goggalor]

I like the way it is now, it's very exciting. What Thor is doing is comparable to a climber trying to get time in the mountains before the final time trial.

With intermediate sprints, the green gladiators can't really afford any quiet autobus days. And with Thor in green, the battle is on all the way to Paris. If Petacchi had it already before the last 2-3 sprints, it'd be a walkover.

 

[therhodeo]

Its better if you look at the Green jersey as a points jersey and not a sprinters jersey. There are certain ways to get points and thats open to anyone. Hushovd is just better at getting them in all the ways his competition don't.

 

[TahoeNL]

not a fan of Dekker's finger, but he is right on! I'm not big on Mark Cavendish but the farces of the green jersey couldn't of been clearer than last year... 6 wins he gets... nodda... and because Thor goes on a lone break and picks up some points HE WINS? Lets see here... Mark 6 wins vs. Thor's 1... and the winner is Thor? Whatever. That's all I have to say about that...

 

[soOpOSMthanks!]

It's meant for the most consistent sprinter

This loses. Severely.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

6 wins he gets... nodda... and because Thor goes on a lone break and picks up some points HE WINS? Lets see here... Mark 6 wins vs. Thor's 1... and the winner is Thor?

6 wins and he gets nada? No, 6 wins and he gets 6 wins. Not the statistic-padding wins that Columbia like to get by sending super-strong teams to races like Turkey either, but real, legitimate elite level wins.

Thor didn't win because he went on a lone break. He only got 12 points from that break. He won because he stuck to Cav and was always in the top 5 when Cav won, but when HE won Cav could only manage 17th, and because Thor scored points on intermediate stages like the one Haussler won, when Cav was dropped.

Basically, Thor won the POINTS COMPETITION because he SCORED MORE POINTS.

I hope that makes sense. You can argue about the distribution of points until the cows come home, but the Tour de France already biases its points system towards the better sprinters, what more are they meant to do, ask teams to nominate a green jersey contender at the start of the race and then ignore all points scored by other riders?

 

[Archibald]

he SCORED MORE POINTS.

nail on the head

 

[movingtarget]

I guess we are used to previous years when the best sprinter did usually win the green jersey. It is pretty dull these days. The climber's jersey is even worse. If they were really serious about awarding the best climber, they should only award points on HC and cat 1 climbs. That way, consistent GC climbers instead of just breakaway riders would figure more. Also get rid of the hot spot sprints for the Green jersey and only have points spread over the top 5 on stage finishes.

 

[Archibald]

I see that wiley Norge, Thor, has done it again - leading home the peloton sprint to pick up the points after what the breakaway had already taken...
6 points and enough to nick back the green jersey
all credit to him not to have cruised along in the autobus

 

[William H]

There's nothing particularly wrong with the system. Cav could well be leading if he'd stayed upright on stage 1, and this year and last have both been close and exciting competitions.

I don't think it would be a bad thing if the stage winner got some more points though. Would have made this years competition even closer.

 

[Punter]

Just seen that Petacchi is under investigation http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/petacchi-under-investigation-in-italy

Thinking back to the likes of Basso and Ulrich being prevented from starting and Rasmussen getting hoofed out when doubts about his movements surfaced - shouldn't Petacchi be shown the door?

 

[El Pistolero]

I hope Thor doesn't win, he has trouble finishing in the top 10 on flat stages =/

If he was able to always finish in the top 3 or top 5 this race then I wouldn't mind how Thor won the green jersey, but he doesn't. So I hope he loses it and he probably will.

 

[Escarabajo]

If it is meant for the most consistent finisher than it's still not doing it's job right, because Hushovd is not even that...
But I guess I am alone in my dislike for this competition at the moment.

So why do you want to take the points out of the cobbles stage then?
Some posters have made good points about these intermidiate sprints being more interesting the way they are now.

These intermediate sprints are like supermarios games where you get some bonus points along the way.

 

[Four Winds]

The big man is doing an awful lot of punching the air. It's hard to know whether laying it on the line today for 6 points won't ending up costing him more points in the bunch sprints to come.

I guess that's the way he goes about things and it has worked before, but he'll have to go some to put himself out of reach of Petacchi with 2 classic sprinters stages to go.

 

[Willy_Voet]

Just seen that Petacchi is under investigation http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/petacchi-under-investigation-in-italy

Thinking back to the likes of Basso and Ulrich being prevented from starting and Rasmussen getting hoofed out when doubts about his movements surfaced - shouldn't Petacchi be shown the door?

But, but, but, the stuff wasn't his.

 

[goggalor]

I think Thor showed today that he is the most consistent finisher. The only way he doesn't deserve the green is if you consider it a sprinters jersey--which is fair, though I disagree.

I hope if Petacchi wins it, he does so by a good margin, maybe 30 points. If not he can thank Cancellara.

 

[SirLes]

I have to say i'm not happy about the way points are awarded as it's inconsistent.

If it's meant to be the "sprinters" jersey then remove intermediate sprints and points on mountains stages.

If it's for the most consistent rider then why give more points for the winner of flat stages?

Many years ago there was a separate Red jersey if I remember correctly for intermediate sprints (sponsored by ????) This would be good to reintroduce as it awards the rider who is most aggressive, gets in breaks etc. A bit like the red number.

The last "best sprinter" to win the Green jersey was probably McEwen

 

[kurtinsc]

6 wins and he gets nada? No, 6 wins and he gets 6 wins. Not the statistic-padding wins that Columbia like to get by sending super-strong teams to races like Turkey either, but real, legitimate elite level wins.

Thor didn't win because he went on a lone break. He only got 12 points from that break. He won because he stuck to Cav and was always in the top 5 when Cav won, but when HE won Cav could only manage 17th, and because Thor scored points on intermediate stages like the one Haussler won, when Cav was dropped.

Basically, Thor won the POINTS COMPETITION because he SCORED MORE POINTS.

I hope that makes sense. You can argue about the distribution of points until the cows come home, but the Tour de France already biases its points system towards the better sprinters, what more are they meant to do, ask teams to nominate a green jersey contender at the start of the race and then ignore all points scored by other riders?

Well... after the relegation he scored more points.

 

[kurtinsc]

I think Thor showed today that he is the most consistent finisher. The only way he doesn't deserve the green is if you consider it a sprinters jersey--which is fair, though I disagree.

I hope if Petacchi wins it, he does so by a good margin, maybe 30 points. If not he can thank Cancellara.

I don't buy that. All Thor had to do was say "no" and had Cervelo push the pace.

He chose to bow to the will of the pelaton and not **** others off... but Cervelo can't blame anyone else. They were in the strongest position, with both their sprinter and GC man in the lead group. If they had refused, the stage wouldn't have been neutralized.

 

[cycledp]

The arguments are getting repitive.
I have nothing against people not being the best sprinter and winning green. I never said that. Being consistent is enough. I always liked Zabel when he won it even where he rarely won the most stages. Same when Cooke won the jersey or Freire, being consistent was enough.

But I get EDGY, just even a bit annoyed, with Hushovd winning it, since he is barely capable of riding top 5 in actual sprints...
That's what I'm edgy about.
Not what you all think and repeat, being the best, no, that I don't care about. But the green jersey winner should at least be able to be competitive in mass sprints. Hushovd is not. And that's why I am so annoyed with it.

I agree with your point since Hushovd has been so poor in the sprints, but with the way sprinting is now, they might as well call it the lead out train jersey if they changed the rules to make it more favorable to just sprinters rather than all-arounders. Lead out trains bother me more than Hushovd having the green jersey. They have made sprints extremely boring. I don't think Cav even needs his lead out train that much. He did pretty well without Renshaw the other day, and the sprint, although it wasn't for 1st place, was more exciting than the others in my opinion.

 

[kurtinsc]

I agree with your point since Hushovd has been so poor in the sprints, but with the way sprinting is now, they might as well call it the lead out train jersey if they changed the rules to make it more favorable to just sprinters rather than all-arounders. Lead out trains bother me more than Hushovd having the green jersey. They have made sprints extremely boring. I don't think Cav even needs his lead out train that much. He did pretty well without Renshaw the other day, and the sprint, although it wasn't for 1st place, was more exciting than the others in my opinion.

Other team's do have the option of bringing riders for a train rather then mountain domestiques. I think Garmin had a train nearly the equal of Columbia's... before their injuries and issues. I think Milram's train is pretty solid too... but their sprinter isn't up to par.