Green jersey - Don't like the way it's won

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I already had this feeling last year, but this year it's even worse. The green jersey is becoming a bit of a joke like the climbers jersey. Because Hushovd, even though admirable, really shouldn't be wearing that
It's meant for the most consistent sprinter, which is, this Tour, Ale-Jet Petacchi.

Yet, because Hushovd wins a cobble stage and goes into breakaways in (middle) mountain stages, he is the one wearing the jersey.
Same reason why he won it last year.
In real mass-sprints Hushovd has trouble even reaching top 5.

To me, it's a bit of a joke. And although I previously never had something against him, I start to dislike Hushovd for the way he takes the green jersey. I'm just against it.
Damn Petacchi should wear it, and last year Cavendish should have won it.

What can be done against it? No more intermediate sprints for points in mountain stages! And don't give 35 points in cobble stages!
Any more ideas?

 

[powerste]

I already had this feeling last year, but this year it's even worse. The green jersey is becoming a bit of a joke like the climbers jersey. Because Hushovd, even though admirable, really shouldn't be wearing that
It's meant for the most consistent sprinter, which is, this Tour, Ale-Jet Petacchi.

<snip>

What can be done against it? No more intermediate sprints for points in mountain stages! And don't give 35 points in cobble stages!
Any more ideas?

Actually, it's meant for the most consistent finisher, with a bonus for he who can clean up some intermediate sprints as well.

To change its intent from what it is to what you desire would be simple, and you've already basically laid it out:
-No more intermediate sprint points
-No sprint points on non-sprinting stages

Tour organizers would of course have to decide which stages should warrant sprint points. However, before they did that, they'd have to agree with your premise that it's purely for sprinting. I'm not sure they're going to.

As for me personally, I like the way Thor gets it. He has to do more than sprint, and I for one like to see how hard he works for it. But then I tend to like the all-rounders better than the pure sprinters anyway, so my personal bias comes into play here.

As a reference point, Zabel averaged two sprint wins per green jersey. It'd be interesting to see what other GJ winners' averages are.

 

[hrotha]

If it was meant to be a prize for the best sprinter, why would riders get points in mountain stages?

It's fine as it is. Cavendish can't climb or go on breakaways, whereas Hushovd can. That makes Hushovd more consistent in my book.

 

[Jamsque]

I'm a massive Cav fan, and I agree he should have won green last year, but I can't begrudge Thor the jersey, last year or this.

Just because it's usually won by the most consistent sprinter in bunch finishes, doesn't mean it's 'meant' for the most consistent sprinter. It's the points jersey, not the sprinter's jersey.

What makes Grand Tours so great is that there is more than one way to get the job done, whatever that job is. A team can win stages by assembling a sprint train, or by bringing lots of aggressive guys and sending them up the road every day, or by hiring a specialist and targeting a time trial. A strong climber can win yellow by taking time in the mountains and limiting his losses in the time trial, and a strong time-trialist can do the opposite. The polka-dots can be won by dominating the uphill finishes (which is admittedly hard given how few there are these days) or by constantly attacking and sprinting for summits.

Similarly, there is more than one path to the green jersey. In can be won by a Robbie McEwen or a Mark Cavendish who has an unmatchable kick in a bunch sprint galloping to multiple stage wins on the flat, but it can be just as well won by a canny veteran Oscar Friere or Thor Hushovd who is never far from the top 5 on the flat and who can snatch a stage win on a more challenging finish as well as some intermediate sprints in the hills.

It's not a joke, it's a competition that is carefully poised to allow riders with different skillsets to win it in different ways. If it wasn't, it would be one-dimensional and boring.

 

[Punter]

Personally I love watching Hushovd going out for the points in the mountains.

 

[palmerq]

I like it this way... I thinks it makes it a good competition.... if it was just for stage finishes thor would probably be out of the running but now we have another guy in th running..... and the stages are all around 200km long I dont think the jersey should just be about what happens in the last km....

 

[Four Winds]

A minefield. I'm also a Cav fan and while getting rid of bonuses would suit him I do think the intermediate sprints make the green jersey more exciting.

Does it reward "the best" or the "most consistent" ?

Big Thor is the best all rounder but is definitely behind in the sprints this year.
Petacchi has been the most consistent in the sprints.
But surely Cav has been the best sprinter? He's won 4 out of 5 sprints contested although one wasn't for a stage. It's the sprint stage (1) he didn't contest which has cost him.
That said, only Hushovd got to Spa with the bunch with Cav and Ale way behind.

 

[scribe]

If cavendish would venture out from the rear center of the peloton to grab some points along the way, he'd be the rightful outright winner of the jersey

 

[Mr.DNA]

I totally disagree with the OP on this. Seeing green jersey contenders (namely Thor) grab intermediate sprint points breathes life into the relatively unexciting parts of Tour stages. It also adds an element of strategy to a competition which would be otherwise one-dimensional.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

If it is meant for the most consistent finisher than it's still not doing it's job right, because Hushovd is not even that...
But I guess I am alone in my dislike for this competition at the moment.

 

[ingsve]

A rider like Thor makes the race for the green jersey more interesting. And it's not like he's going to win it the way it looks right now. Going for intermediates won't make you win green alone, you need to also place high in stages. He did that last year with lots of podiums but this year it won't be enough.

In previous years there was often no real competition for it at all. That's how Zabel could win it every year. The other sprinters that was good in the first week simply didn't finish the race and all of a sudden each year Zabel had a 70 point lead. Imagine last years green jersey race if Cav hadn't been in the race. Boooring...

 

[DenisMenchov]

Do you people think that red jersey would still work??? Red jersey just for the intermediate sprints. That way those sprints would really mean something and small teams like Cofidis could wear a jersey and bring it to Paris.

 

[goggalor]

If it is meant for the most consistent finisher than it's still not doing it's job right, because Hushovd is not even that...
But I guess I am alone in my dislike for this competition at the moment.

Well, he won the cobblestone stage, with the other sprinters minutes down the road. And was up there in Spa as well, only accompanied by McEwen.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If it was just for the sprints and no intermediates, and just for the sprint stages, you may as well just grab Cav (or in years gone by Petacchi, McEwen, Cipo, whoever) and hand them the jersey on day 1 for all the good the competition will be. The likes of Cav get enough reward for their performance by winning multiple stages. Is that not enough for them? Do they really need the points jersey (POINTS JERSEY) to be biased even MORE in favour of sprinters? After all, at the other two GTs all stages are equal, meaning that the jersey is a much more accurate painting of the consistent riders in the race. In the Giro for a while we had Farrar and Cadel Evans fighting over the jersey, and Vino and Evans getting mixed up in bunch sprints. In the Vuelta you had Alejandro Valverde holding it for a few days. That to me is more interesting as a competition than saying 'oh, the best sprinter gets it' because the best sprinter inevitably wins a bunch of stages anyway.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

The arguments are getting repitive.
I have nothing against people not being the best sprinter and winning green. I never said that. Being consistent is enough. I always liked Zabel when he won it even where he rarely won the most stages. Same when Cooke won the jersey or Freire, being consistent was enough.

But I get EDGY, just even a bit annoyed, with Hushovd winning it, since he is barely capable of riding top 5 in actual sprints...
That's what I'm edgy about.
Not what you all think and repeat, being the best, no, that I don't care about. But the green jersey winner should at least be able to be competitive in mass sprints. Hushovd is not. And that's why I am so annoyed with it.

 

[Old School]

Ya'll are smoking crack. Thor is recovering from a broken collarbone...last year he was mostly top 3, and you know it. He's a better sprinter than he's showing, form wise...YET HE'S STILL IN THE LEAD FOR THE GREEN.

He's a better all around rider...stop hating.

 

[taiwan]

Mostly agree with the OP. I think there's room for a sprinter's jersey, purely awarded on the strength of placings in flat or flat and intermediate stages. The intermediate sprints could be a seperate competition. Riding in breakaways is a different approach to racing than sprinting entirely, and I don't see why they should be linked in the points competition, although this view may go against history.

A similar climber's jersey would be worthwhile too, awarded to the best collection of placings in stages with high mountains.

If all this meant there would be two extra jerseys for intermediate sprints and individual climbs, then so be it.

[edit] Actually, maybe I don't agree with the OP, but there you go anyway.

 

[El Pistolero]

Ya'll are smoking crack. Thor is recovering from a broken collarbone...last year he was mostly top 3, and you know it. He's a better sprinter than he's showing, form wise...YET HE'S STILL IN THE LEAD FOR THE GREEN.

He's a better all around rider...stop hating.

He's not an all around rider at all. He just so happens to be a decent classics specialist next to being a sprinter. We all know Thor would have lost that cobbles stage if Cancellara didn't have to drag baby Schleck along. And the other great classics specialist, Tom Boonen, had to undergo knee surgery not so long ago, so he couldn't participate in the Tour(third time in a row -,-"). If Tom Boonen was in that stage he wouldn't have stayed with the Schleck group like Thor did. Thor is a scavenger really. And I don't mind that, I would have done the same if I were in his shoes.

 

[neineinei]

The arguments are getting repitive.
I have nothing against people not being the best sprinter and winning green. I never said that. Being consistent is enough. I always liked Zabel when he won it even where he rarely won the most stages. Same when Cooke won the jersey or Freire, being consistent was enough.

But I get EDGY, just even a bit annoyed, with Hushovd winning it, since he is barely capable of riding top 5 in actual sprints...
That's what I'm edgy about.
Not what you all think and repeat, being the best, no, that I don't care about. But the green jersey winner should at least be able to be competitive in mass sprints. Hushovd is not. And that's why I am so annoyed with it.

Last year Hushovd sprinted better and he got more points in the finishing sprints.

It seems highly unlikely that Hushovd will win the green jersey this year. It would either take getting away on at least 3 or 4 more expeditons like todays (where are the stages for that, and why would Lampre, Katusha and HTC-Columbia let him get away in breaks over and over again?), or all of Pettachi, McEwen and Cavendish abandon the race or not making the time limit on some mountain stage.

I think the TdF and the sponsor of the green jersey are pretty happy about the kind of exposure the chase for the intermediate sprints are giving.

 

[Cobblestones]

It's the point jersey, not the mass-sprint jersey, not even the best-finisher jersey. And as such it works to make parts of the race more interesting than they otherwise would be.

I don't think a pure 'mass sprint' jersey would make anything more interesting. Sprinters will sprint anyway.

Same is true for the polka dot jersey. It makes parts of the race more interesting than they would be otherwise. GC guys will slug it out anyway, but likely only on the last climb.

I think it is great that neither green nor polka dot go to the most dominant sprinter (Cav/Ale Jet) or climber (Bertie/Schlecklet). They're already being awarded with stage wins, and yellow jerseys.

but of course, YMMV.

An interesting thought would be to introduce a few more jerseys. IIRC many years ago (~25??) the TdF had many many more jerseys. They cleaned it up and only a few survived. Maybe it's time to expand a little again.

 

[King Of Molehill]

Bring back the patchwork jersey I say! That was given to the rider who led in total points in all categories including yellow, green, red, and polka-dot.

 

[Mambo95]

The arguments are getting repitive.
I have nothing against people not being the best sprinter and winning green. I never said that. Being consistent is enough. I always liked Zabel when he won it even where he rarely won the most stages. Same when Cooke won the jersey or Freire, being consistent was enough.

But I get EDGY, just even a bit annoyed, with Hushovd winning it, since he is barely capable of riding top 5 in actual sprints...
That's what I'm edgy about.
Not what you all think and repeat, being the best, no, that I don't care about. But the green jersey winner should at least be able to be competitive in mass sprints. Hushovd is not. And that's why I am so annoyed with it.

I actually agree with you. The system as it is now rewards conservative sprinting - making sure you always in a reasonable position but not risking going for the win. Taking risks can't be done as a crash can put you a long way out of the running. This year Cavendish and Farrar were both involved in crashes on stage 1.

With the points system as it is, an 8th and 9th place gets you as many points as a win and a nowhere - and this doesn't seem right to me.

Thor knows this and plays the system. He's very conservative. Last year he could have had a good lead out team, but he preferred to sit on Cav's wheel as it gave him the best chance of 2nd or 3rd (Haussler said this was the case). He also knows that if there is one stage which suits him and not his rivals (Barcelona last year, cobbles this), and he place highly, then a series of top ten places from 3rd to 10th will make him hard to catch. If a rival has a crash or mishap going for a win - all the better.

I would keep the bonus sprints, but I would change the points on the line.

Currently, for a flat stage, they are: 35,30,26,24,22,20,19,18,17,16 etc

I would change it to: 35,25,15,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1.

It rewards going for the win and makes it easier to play catch up if you have a crash or other mishap.

 

[Jux1893]

I like the good old green jersey, with each stage having the same value. It's already bias to give more points in the flat stage. i can't believe anyone thiks it should be even more bias.

If the sprinters want it they should work for it. Can anyone really say that 2 stage wins in flat stages are worth as much as 3 stage wins in mountain stages? I completely disagree.

Cadel and Bossen Hagen should be fighting for it in the Pirineus and moving for the firs places in bunch sprints.

Hushovd really gives prestige to the shirt, he is the only one suffering to get those precious extra points. Much more value to him than to someone that lays low in the peloton all day just to work in the last 10km of 6 stages and lazy it out for the remaining 17.

 

[Potomac]

There's Yellow in Paris.

There's stage wins.

Everything else is rubbish.

 

[Hotbrakes]

Have points for the first 10 on the intermediate sprints. If there is a breakaway of 5 or 6 riders then the sprinters would still have to fight it out for the remaining points. Would make the flat stages good to watch on TV and would produce a green jersey winner that has both stamina and cunning.