Green jersey - Don't like the way it's won

[Climbing]

Thor has not win yet... and probably won't.

 

[luckyboy]

Think it'd be better if mtf's got more points than they do.

If the jersey is meant to be for the most consistent finisher, why are the riders who consistently finish high up on mountain stages penalised?

Anyway, I hope Petacchi takes green. Then again, if anything comes of these new allegations, Hushovd might win two greens in a row due to the misfortune (if you can call being caught doping that) of the best sprinters.

 

[Ramira]

Think it'd be better if mtf's got more points than they do.

If the jersey is meant to be for the most consistent finisher, why are the riders who consistently finish high up on mountain stages penalised?

I gotta say I agree with this point. Some assistant did some research for Dutch TV about last year's tour to see who would've won the green if it was decided on top 3 finishes, guess who were first and second, Contador and Schlek.

They should either call it the sprint jersey introduce and remove all points in 'non-sprint' stages, add another one for intermediate sprints and give a ****load more points for mountain finishes so it's won by real climbers (and heck maybe introduce a hilly jersey) or make it about the most consistent finisher regardless of the type of stage.

 

[El Pistolero]

Well, you obviously can't have a Grand Tour with only mountain stages, unless of course you want more doping in the sport. You need flat stages and the only way for a Grand Tour to attract sprinters is to give them a possibility to win a jersey. Let's not kid our self here... The green jersey is a sprinter jersey.

The Polkadot jersey should be changed, the green jersey is fine as it is.

 

[Marva32]

The Green Jersey is for the 'POINTS competition' established by the TDF with its own rules. It is designed to reward the person who is most consistently at the front at certain designated points along the route. It is not a designated sprinters jersey, nor is it the jersey for the most consistent finisher. In order to have the Green Jersey, or any other special jersey competition, the TDF has to find a sponsor who is interested in paying money for advertising and supporting that competition. Years ago the TDF had more jerseys, and decided that having too many jerseys reduced their marketability. Now, the Tour has limited the jerseys, but has to make it so that there is something competitive for the sponsor. In this case, I would have to say that the sponsor of the Green Jersey has to be happy, last year was a closely contested competition, and so is this. People may not like the way the competition is designed, but the fact is, the current points system is one which is allowing for a close race with excitement and people who are paying attention to what is going on. At the other extreme is the Giro which has so many different competitions that it is difficult to remember what each one is for. The Tour is keeping things easier to follow, and creating more excitement.

 

[ScottyMuser]

Other team's do have the option of bringing riders for a train rather then mountain domestiques. I think Garmin had a train nearly the equal of Columbia's... before their injuries and issues. I think Milram's train is pretty solid too... but their sprinter isn't up to par.

Not, HTCs is superior in every way to Garmin's and Milrams even if we ignore the fact that Millar seems to prefer leading out HTC then his own team. Plus Garmin have 2 decent (as in, on form, would both get a top 15-20) GC riders - HTC have NONE (Rogers doesn't count he has NEVER been able top climb). Don't forget that HTC had more injuries then Garmin to theior trains et up (garmin had VDV who wouldn't pull, HTC had Hansen whowas a key member of the train), and garmin were pretty much attempting to break up the HTC train rathwer than rival it.
The way HTC do it is boring, and in many eyes, devalue the wins as they operate on an uneven playing field -as in they go straight for sprint wins and nothing more, Garmin have a fairly well balanced team supporting multiple aims (Farrar for sprints, Dave Z/Miollar for TTs, Rogers to be high for a bit in the GC until the serious mountains, ditto Martin with the white), ditto Lampre (Petacchi for sprints, Cunego for GC, Gavazzi for stage wins), Milarm (Ciolek for sprints, Rohregger for breaks, Gerdeman for GC), Cervelo (Satsre for GC, Hushovd/Haussler for sprints) etc

 

[El Pistolero]

The Green Jersey is for the 'POINTS competition' established by the TDF with its own rules. It is designed to reward the person who is most consistently at the front at certain designated points along the route. It is not a designated sprinters jersey, nor is it the jersey for the most consistent finisher. In order to have the Green Jersey, or any other special jersey competition, the TDF has to find a sponsor who is interested in paying money for advertising and supporting that competition. Years ago the TDF had more jerseys, and decided that having too many jerseys reduced their marketability. Now, the Tour has limited the jerseys, but has to make it so that there is something competitive for the sponsor. In this case, I would have to say that the sponsor of the Green Jersey has to be happy, last year was a closely contested competition, and so is this. People may not like the way the competition is designed, but the fact is, the current points system is one which is allowing for a close race with excitement and people who are paying attention to what is going on. At the other extreme is the Giro which has so many different competitions that it is difficult to remember what each one is for. The Tour is keeping things easier to follow, and creating more excitement.

The green jersey is a sprinters jersey. Why else would someone receive less points on mountain stages? You know, the stages that are way harder to win than flat stages?

Contador would have most likely won this "Points Jersey" if they gave equal points to mountain stages and Time Trial stages. Or at least would stand a change to win it.

But I don't mind the green jersey at all. It's fine as it is. The Polkadot jersey is one big joke though. How the **** is Charteau "king of the mountains?" Give that title to Schleck or Contador please. They're the real kings of the mountains here.

 

[Lord Stanley]

Well for me the best sprinter is the one who has the most flat stage victories, probably. And these are pretty prestigious too, Cav winning 6 stages a year ago is a more significant achievement tham Green jersey. That jersey is there to make it more interesting, to create an extra competition, more stories, more fun. It's a POINTS jersey. I don't see how is that a problem that the best sprinter automaticaly doesn't get it. I love the way Thor fights for it, it's pretty cool you can get the jersey in some different ways. And how about polka-dot jersey? The points are to be won only in mountains but is the winner of the competition the best climber? How much faster will be AS/AC on their way to Tourmalet than Charteau? Hey, really, it's not even close. So should they change the rules for polka dot jersey too and Charteau/Moreau would be an undeserved winner? Hell no...

 

[Marva32]

The green jersey is a sprinters jersey. Why else would someone receive less points on mountain stages? You know, the stages that are way harder to win than flat stages?

From the Tour de France rules, which also specify that the importance of the Green Jersey is the second most important Jersey in the Tour, with only the Yellow Jersey being more important.

http://www.letour.fr/2010/TDF/COURSE/docs/reglement.pdf

Individual points ranking
The individual points ranking is obtained by
adding together the points recorded in the
individual rankings for each stage, according
to the following tables, and taking into
account penalty points:
• for the “flat” in-line stages (art. 22-coeff.
1): 35-30-26-24-22-20-19-18-17-16-15-14-
13-12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 points for
the first 25 riders to finish;
• for the “medium mountain” in-line stages
(art. 22-coeff. 2): 25-22-20-18-16-15-14-13-
12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 points for the
first 20 riders to finish;
• for the “high mountain” in-line stages
(art. 22-coeff. 3): 20-17-15-13-12-10-9-8-7-
6-5-4-3-2-1 points for the first 15 riders to
finish;
In the event of a dead heat in a stage finish,
the riders are credited with the number of
points they would receive, divided by the
number of riders concerned. These points
are then rounded up to the nearest ½ point.
• for the prologue and the individual time
trial stage (art.22-coeff. 4): 15-12-10-8-6-
5-4-3-2-1 points to the first 10 riders to
finish.
• for each intermediate sprint, the first
3 riders to finish will receive 6,4 and 2
points respectively. In the event of a tie
in the general ranking, the number of
stage victories are added up for each rider,
followed by the number of intermediate-
sprint victories; if there is still no
clear winner, the individual time ranking
is used. In order to appear in the general
points ranking, riders must finish the Tour
de France. In case competitors finishing
after the cut-off time are reinstated by
the race officials’ committee, the equivalent
of the points attributed to the winner
of the stage concerned will be removed
from the reinstated competitor’s score in
the overall individual points standings.

The reason for having fewer points available at the finish of the mountain stages is that there is another competition specifically for mountain finishes, the Polka-Dot Jersey.

Please remember, throughout history, the Green Jersey has been for a 'Points Competition' not a sprinter's competition. It is for points earned at specific locations on the course. While the rules give more points for the finish of a stage, that is just one of the designated places to gain points.

There has been an intermediate sprints classification, which from 1984 awarded a red jersey for points awarded to the first three to pass intermediate points during the stage. These sprints also scored points towards the green jersey and bonuses towards the general classification. The sprints remain, with points for the green jersey. The red jersey was abolished in 1989.

From 1968 there was a combination classification, scored on a points system based on standings for the yellow, green, red, and polka-dot jerseys. The design was originally white, then a patchwork with areas resembling each individual jersey design. This was also abolished in 1989.

The prix de la combativité goes to the rider who most animates the day, usually by trying to break clear of the field. The most combative rider wears a number printed white-on-red instead of black-on-white next day. An award goes to the most aggressive rider throughout the Tour. Already in 1908 a sort of combativity award was offered, when Sports Populaires and L'Education Physique created Le Prix du Courage, 100 francs and a silver gilt medal for "the rider having finished the course, even if unplaced, who is particularly distinguished for the energy he has used."[101][109] The modern competition started in 1958. In 1959, a Super Combativity award for the most combative cyclist of the Tour was awarded. It was initially not rewarded every year, but since 1981 it has been given annually.

The team prize is assessed by adding the time of each team's best three riders each day. The competition does not have its own jersey but since 2006 the leading team has worn numbers printed black-on-yellow. Until 1990, the leading team would wear yellow caps. The competition has existed from the start; the most successful trade team is Alcyon, which won from 1909 to 1912 and from 1927 to 1929. The best national teams are France and Belgium, with 10 wins each. From 1973 up to 1988, there was also a team classification based on points (stage classification); members of the leading team would wear green caps.

Some more history on the Green Jersey:

After scandals in the 1904 Tour de France, the rules of the 1905 Tour de France were changed: the winner was no longer determined by the time system, but with the points system. The cyclists received points, equal to their ranking in the stage, and the cyclist with the least points was the leader of the race. After the 1912 Tour de France, the system was changed back to the time system that is still in use.

In the 1953 Tour de France, to celebrate the 50th birthday of the Tour de France, the points system was reintroduced, but this time as an additional classification. Because the leader in the general classification wears a yellow jersey, the leader in the points classification also received a special jersey, a green jersey (French: maillot vert). The color green was chosen because the sponsor was a lawn mower producer.

In the first years, the cyclist only received penalty points for not finishing with a high place, so the cyclist with the least points was awarded the green jersey. From 1959 on, the system was changed so the cyclists were awarded points for high place finishes (with first place getting the most points, and lower placings getting successively fewer points), so the cyclist with the most points was awarded the green jersey.

In 1968 the jersey was red, to please the sponsor.

Whereas the yellow jersey is awarded for the lowest cumulative time in the race, the green jersey reflects points gained for high placings on each stage and intermediate "hot spots," especially during the flat stages of the Tour. The intermediate sprints were formerly for an additional red jersey, with the points for the green a 'side-effect'; however, this was later scrapped, and they are now part of the green jersey competition.

The points classification is widely thought of as the "sprinter's competition," since the riders generally remain together in one large peloton during flat stages, leaving those with the fastest acceleration at the end to fight for the stage win. However, to win the competition a rider will need a reasonable level of all-round skills as well as strong sprinting, since he will need to finish within the time limit on mountain stages to remain in contention, and ideally will be able to contest intermediate sprints during mountain stages as well.

So, as we can see, the Tour has used different systems for the Green Jersey in the past, and may change them in the future. There has been a combined category in the past, and there was previously separate competitions for final sprints and intermediate sprints. Who knows, if the economics of cycle racing change again, the additional categories may be brought back. For now, this is the way the Green Jersey competition is designed, whether we like it or not.

Sorry for the length of the post

 

[Michielveedeebee]

If it is meant for the most consistent finisher than it's still not doing it's job right, because Hushovd is not even that...
But I guess I am alone in my dislike for this competition at the moment.

I like the competition but I indeed don't like the way Hushovd wins these things. Last year he was pretty good in the bunch sprints but he has big trouble hitting even top 5 right now. don't think he should and will win it this year. I really hope cav will. Although he'd have to be very very lucky

 

[simoni]

The best sprinter is already rewarded in the form of stage wins.

you can win yellow through not winning stages - why not green?

 

[kurtinsc]

The best sprinter is already rewarded in the form of stage wins.

you can win yellow through not winning stages - why not green?

Intermediate sprints don't impact yellow anymore though. While I have no problem with it being as it is... if it really were for the best finish position, you wouldn't have the intermediates. If you take those out of the point totals, I think it would be:

Pettachi - 181
Thor - 171
Cav - 162

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Intermediate sprints don't impact yellow anymore though. While I have no problem with it being as it is... if it really were for the best finish position, you wouldn't have the intermediates. If you take those out of the point totals, I think it would be:

Pettachi - 181
Thor - 171
Cav - 162

Give Thor his 20+ points from stage 2 and he's still ahead. And why shouldn't the IM sprints count? You may want this to be a "best bunch sprinter" competition but the reality is that it's not all about the bunch sprints. If Hushovd wins the jersey than he'll fully deserve it for picking up the most points thanks to not being as one dimensional as the other sprinters.

Petacchi winning the green would (will) be yet another farce...

 

[kurtinsc]

Give Thor his 20+ points from stage 2 and he's still ahead. And why shouldn't the IM sprints count? You may want this to be a "best bunch sprinter" competition but the reality is that it's not all about the bunch sprints. If Hushovd wins the jersey than he'll fully deserve it for picking up the most points thanks to not being as one dimensional as the other sprinters.

Petacchi winning the green would (will) be yet another farce...

I don't care if they count or not. I was merely saying that if the award were for the "most consistent finisher"... then intermediate points wouldn't count.

 

[Silhouette]

You're trying to give a definition to what the green jersey is.

Well, it's a points jersey.

You do certain things well and you get points. The person who finishes the race with the most points wins the jersey. Those are the rules and that is the competition.

Getting stage wins has its own rewards.

 

[cycledp]

Other team's do have the option of bringing riders for a train rather then mountain domestiques. I think Garmin had a train nearly the equal of Columbia's... before their injuries and issues. I think Milram's train is pretty solid too... but their sprinter isn't up to par.

I'm not singling out HTC for for their lead out train. I'm against any train. They are boring and predictable.

 

[Halvis]

It seems that the IM sprints is the only way Thor has a chance of winning the green jersey this year - he receives virtually NO help from the Cervelo team, he's on his own in almost every sprint. Both Petacchi and Cav is led to the finish as blind cows to the watering hole by their teams, by saying that I'm not trying to demote the fact that they are ultra fast, but IMO they are in a completely different situation than Thor.

Personally, I think it great to see Thor attack in the mountains, and the fact that he came in with the yellow today is very, very impressive!

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

You forgot to mention that, even in the sprints that Hushovd is well placed, he is sprinting backwards.

Even a c-sprinter like Turgot passes him as if he is standing still

 

[asdfgh101]

Intermediate points pollute the green jersey in my eyes (and should thus be counted towards a separate prize).

The green jersey should reward the most consistent finisher, perhaps a rider that dominates the flat stages, perhaps a rider who does well on varying terrains (cobbles, medium mountains, high mountain descents).

Thor gained 6 points today for a very determined ride. An intermediate sprint is also worth 6 points, yet amongst break-aways they are rarely contested, they discriminate against riders high in GC (for example Farrar after a good prologue may not be allowed to get into a break on an early medium mountain/hilly stage by team of yellow jersey) and against teams who work all out for flat stage wins (and for people criticising trains i hope that you realise the importance of a high pace and a strung out bunch late in flat stages).

I do not believe that a pure sprinter has any specific right to the green jersey, but i believe that the prestige of the jersey is tarnished by rewarding mediocre sprinting supplemented by combativity early in a stage. I also believe that a lot of people don't mind the current system because it favours a rider who is well liked (i'm ambivalent towards said rider).

 

[khodder]

Thor gained 6 points today for a very determined ride. An intermediate sprint is also worth 6 points, yet amongst break-aways they are rarely contested, they discriminate against riders high in GC (for example Farrar after a good prologue may not be allowed to get into a break on an early medium mountain/hilly stage by team of yellow jersey) and against teams who work all out for flat stage wins (and for people criticising trains i hope that you realise the importance of a high pace and a strung out bunch late in flat stages).

If Tyler Farrar wanted to go in a break to secure early sprint points on a stage, every single one of the GC riders would let him go, he is no threat to them, get to the first mountain and watch him quickly slide into the grupetto and lose 30 minutes.

You are right about the teams with trains basically HTC and Garmin, so take one out. And really if it was a medium mountain stage is Cav going to be with the main group to be pulled along by a train?

Those "transition" stages are just that for a reason, they are not really going to create any GC battler and the sprinters are likely to be out the back. Sometimes the team in yellow does not care becasue A - They want to lose it to save their domestiques or B - The current yellow Jersey is already out the back.

The lack of teams willing to chase is why the breaks succeeds and having Farrar in there might not change that.

But in all honesty, what is the point of a top quality sprinter going in the break. it is next to none. If you back yourself to get a top 3 in the bunch sprint, then it is far better to sacrifice the 12 points you could get from two intermediate sprints, to go for the big prize at the stage end.

I like the way it is being won, it is a consistency/points jersey, and it is rewarding the consistency of Hushovd over the one track bunch sprint win mind of Cav and Ale-Jet.

 

[gorgos]

Hushovd is working his *** off, trying to win the points jersey, (i say again, POINTS jersey, not sprinters jersey, points, got it?) and some are complaing about the way it is won?

Holy crap on a cracker! The guy is giving us entertainment and excitement, and I for one is full of admiration for the big guy. What would the battle for green be without him? Pretty darn boring if you ask me.

The complaining about the "way he is winning" can be compared to a ultra-defensive, cynical football team whining because the opposite side is playing entertaining and technical football. And the don't like the way they are winning.

Or, you can turn it the other way around, if i may continue my football metaphores. If a team is good on set pieces, why can't they use it for all it is worth? Should we change the rules of the game if a good set-piece team wins something? Did we change the rules after Greece won the European Champ? No, because there are many different approaches, tactics and ways to win in football. Exactly as it is in the Tour, including the Green jersey competition.

No, let the guys battle it out, with different tactics and strategies.

Hell, isn't this what makes pro cycling fascinating?

 

[saunaking]

Love what Thor is doing - he deserves the Green for his aggressiveness getting into breaks and has little support from his team.

Yes Cav is the best sprinter, but he gets rewarded by winning stages. If he wants the Green he is going to have to step up his overall game.

That being said I agree with an earlier poster who suggested points should be distributed differently on stages with sprint finishes to give more weight to the stage winner.

No problem with Thor in Green this year but last year it was kind of a joke with Cav winning 6 stages but no green jersey

 

[Frank Tuesday]

If it is meant for the most consistent finisher than it's still not doing it's job right, because Hushovd is not even that...
But I guess I am alone in my dislike for this competition at the moment.

Wow, you must really be steaming over the King of the Mountains.

1 Anthony Charteau (Fra) Bbox Bouygues Telecom 143 pts
2 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Caisse d'Epargne 128
3 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre-Farnese Vini 99
4 Sandy Casar (Fra) Française des Jeux 93
5 Jérôme Pineau (Fra) Quick Step 92
6 Thomas Voeckler (Fra) Bbox Bouygues Telecom 82
7 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 76
8 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 76
9 Pierrick Fedrigo (Fra) Bbox Bouygues Telecom 72
10 Samuel Sánchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 72

Of the top 10, only three (7,8,and 10) are what you'd consider to be elite climbers. 7 opportunists who wouldn't stand a chance in a straight fight up a mountain.

Back to green: In flat stages, Hushovd has averaged a 6.14 finish so far, Petacchi 6.57, Cavendish 31.4. Even if you exclude Marks crash on stage 1, his average finish is 7. Hushovd hasn't been out of the top 10 in a flat stage yet. Cav was outside the top 10 twice, Petacchi once. Hushovd has been the most consistent on the flat stages.

 

[stanley]

Zabel and Kelly?

Could Mr Tifosi please look at the win averages per jersey for the two most prolific jersey-takers, namely Zabel and Kelly? It's points, not sprints.

And Cav? He's a class act for the last 200 meters up until he crosses the line. Then comes the two fingered salutes, talking **** about Hushovd and his own teammate Greipel and just about anyone that's not him. And the British cycling press line up to sniff his chamois in admiration.

 

[joe_papp]

Fine the Disinterested Breakaway riders...

I wish the Tour would reintroduce the Red jersey. I wish the Green jersey wasn't so influenced by intermediate sprints, and that it really did favor the best sprinters, as opposed to the most consistent finishers. But, it is what it is.

The thing I don't like about the intermediate sprints is that with only three places on offer, the are neutralized by almost every break - and then the breaks disrespect the intermediate sprints by not contesting them.

Maybe the solution is to either award points more deeply in the intermediate sprints, or start fining breakaway riders who don't sprint each other at each hot spot. It could be like mandatory voting. If you don't show up at the polling place and cast a ballot, you're fined. So, as an example, if David Millar, Roddy Hammersmythe, three little skinny Basque climbers and some big Belgian roll up on a hot spot sprint and don't battle it out, 2000 swiss franc fines to each of 'em!