Hamilton discusses ground rules of possibly giving evidence

[jimmypop]

I don't think there's any reason to believe that Hamilton will clam up.

These investigations carry a little more weight than some here are willing to acknowledge. A hanger-on may have gone to jail for Barry Bonds (among others), but I doubt you'll see the same from former (and current!) Armstrong associates.

 

[Polish]

Do you think Tyler's "strippers and blow" stories from Rock Racing will top Floyd's account over at Postal?

And what is this "cycling mafia" that Tyler talks about?:

"A lot of things happened to me that people don’t know about, and until I write a book someday, won’t know about. There are a lot of bad people out there who have done some bad things to me. Cycling … I think it’s everywhere, but there is a mafia in cycling. That’s pretty much all I’ll say about it, I’ll probably get banned from a race if I say any more, but there is a mafia out there."

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008...e-cycling-mafia-and-life-on-rock-racing_84106
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[Colm.Murphy]

Well one thing he has to lose by not spilling is his freedom. If he cdenies knowledge of something he's later proven to have known he knew he can go to jail for obstruction of justice, even if he can't be charged with any of the original crimes.

This is the issue for all of them. This is why they will all tell the fullest, detailed, complete truth.

That anyone things that the 6-10 riders who possess the direct knowledge will risk jail to protect Lance, collude to synchronize stories about their "own" doping but omit any details as to organized team doping programmes, they are fooling themselves.

 

[Benotti69]

..........
That anyone things that the 6-10 riders who possess the direct knowledge will risk jail to protect Lance, collude to synchronize stories about their "own" doping but omit any details as to organized team doping programmes, they are fooling themselves.

that depends on what the US cycling mafia are prepared to do to these guys to make it seem that jail aint so bad by keeping quiet.

Wiesel/Uniballer/Carmichael/Ochowitz potentially have a lot to lose and how much are they prepared to do to protect it? These guys were thinking of buying the TdF, they are not average joe's.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

that depends on what the US cycling mafia are prepared to do to these guys to make it seem that jail aint so bad by keeping quiet.

Wiesel/Uniballer/Carmichael/Ochowitz potentially have a lot to lose and how much are they prepared to do to protect it? These guys were thinking of buying the TdF, they are not average joe's.

They seemingly had an easier route, by giving something to Landis and keep the status quo. Would have saved them all a huge amount but they did not.

Now the stakes and prices are higher, so to speak. Doubtful they can rally the others to "disagree" with Landis, given what impact that could be on each individual from a criminal standpoint.

As it is, the US Feds have ALL the leverage. Looking at it, this seems to be but a formality in gathering the direct witness testimonies, forensic auditing all the entities and building the airtight case for fraud. I just don't see a way out for the Armstrong crew.

 

[Benotti69]

They seemingly had an easier route, by giving something to Landis and keep the status quo. Would have saved them all a huge amount but they did not.

Now the stakes and prices are higher, so to speak. Doubtful they can rally the others to "disagree" with Landis, given what impact that could be on each individual from a criminal standpoint.

As it is, the US Feds have ALL the leverage. Looking at it, this seems to be but a formality in gathering the direct witness testimonies, forensic auditing all the entities and building the airtight case for fraud. I just don't see a way out for the Armstrong crew.

one of the things that HC, DZ and CVV have to understand is that this case is gonna knock the money out of cycling for a while and their future in the sport is unlikely as DS, coaches etc..because the demand may not be there for them.

 

[Oldman]

that depends on what the US cycling mafia are prepared to do to these guys to make it seem that jail aint so bad by keeping quiet.

Wiesel/Uniballer/Carmichael/Ochowitz potentially have a lot to lose and how much are they prepared to do to protect it? These guys were thinking of buying the TdF, they are not average joe's.

The investigation will likely have it's opportunities to split up this happy little group. Any attempts to represent a unified front could get them in deeper so I'd look to the guys most likely to save themselves: Och and Carmichael.
Both were operating with Armstrong pre-Postal. Ochowicz had expressed doubts about Armstrong's "training" several times among the Motorola team which would indicate he (Och) was not part of any organized program. Carmichael was Armstrong's direct advisor then. How that tied into the Postal program or any other organized PED distribution that could be within the SoL is the unknown. Either way those two are farther outside the inner circle and most easily pressured by a prosecutor.

 

[avanti]

If this case ever gets to trial defense attorney's will point out that both Landis and Hamilton are sometimes incapable of telling the truth.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

The investigation will likely have it's opportunities to split up this happy little group. Any attempts to represent a unified front could get them in deeper so I'd look to the guys most likely to save themselves: Och and Carmichael.
Both were operating with Armstrong pre-Postal. Ochowicz had expressed doubts about Armstrong's "training" several times among the Motorola team which would indicate he (Och) was not part of any organized program. Carmichael was Armstrong's direct advisor then. How that tied into the Postal program or any other organized PED distribution that could be within the SoL is the unknown. Either way those two are farther outside the inner circle and most easily pressured by a prosecutor.

It is clear they are starting by splitting from the top. Trek and Tailwind.

Trek probably has the choice to cooperate or be charged. Gotta guess they will cooperate.

Tailwind is where I think the divisiveness will really play out, as I think the riders will all get immunity for their cooperation.

The owners and management of Tailwind will be pitted against themselves, to see who values their freedom over their ties with each other. Comparing it to the Bonds case, Anderson was a singular witness providing to Bonds a plausible deniability as to what he was rubbing on his arm.

Armstrong does not enjoy that as the structure of the scheme is so vast, and his participation, so deep, that he can't take the position of "I had no idea what this red stuff was that I was getting via IV before each rest day, I thought it was flax seed oil". That won't fly.

Armstrong has benefited, directed, chose the team riders, made management decisions, made coaching/preparation decisions, and was fully involved at the highest level within the organization. A far cry from the "I just worked there" claim of a few days ago.

Now, proving all of this is the key. Getting the mgmt team from Tailwind to buckle will be central to the case, IMHO.

 

[Anonymous]

If this case ever gets to trial defense attorney's will point out that both Landis and Hamilton are sometimes incapable of telling the truth.

Um, if the have evidence showing that Mr "I was on my bike busting my *** for 6 hours each day what are you on" was the junkie freak that anyone with a brain knows to be the truth, that will be a wash. Do you really believe "our liar is less of a liar than yours" is a persuasive argument?

 

[Colm.Murphy]

New SF Weekly article explores the relationship between Ochowicz and Hamilton as it relates to Olympic selections for 2004. Interesting angle, as this becomes more and more complex.

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2010/07/lance_armstrong_hires_criminal.php

 

[alanshearer]

I don't think there's any reason to believe that Hamilton will clam up.

These investigations carry a little more weight than some here are willing to acknowledge. A hanger-on may have gone to jail for Barry Bonds (among others), but I doubt you'll see the same from former (and current!) Armstrong associates.

I don't think clamming up is really an option, or at least not a reasonable option for someone that wants to stay out of jail.

Hamilton puts himself at rist if he goes half-way, withholds relevant information or misleads investigators, regardless of whether this occurs under oath and before a grand jury. I'm sure his attorney has told him this.

Of course, he can refuse to cooperate and invoke the Fifth (assuming there's already some threat of criminal consequences, which I think there may be). But by doing so, he potentially makes himself a target of the investigation. And even if not a target, if evidence of his criminal conduct is uncovered, the prosecution will be less likely to overlook it or go lightly. (A grant of immunity could still force him to testify, but I highly doubt this would be in play unless there was some offer of proof by Hamilton that he had relevant info.)

Which leave the option of full cooperation, where he answers all questions and tells all about himself and others. That his lawyer is in discussions over this may mean that he has some dirt to share. I suspect those discussions include his lawyer asking for X, Y and Z in return for his cooperation. His lawyer would have to provide the specifics of what Hamilton would be able to say, and its value would determine what the investigators would be willing to offer, such as confidentiality or even some form of use immunity.

If Hamilton eventually talks, it will probably mean that a deal was reached and that he has valuable information to provide. And if Hamilton wants or needs the benefits of the deal, he had better comply with his side.

 

[Oldman]

New SF Weekly article explores the relationship between Ochowicz and Hamilton as it relates to Olympic selections for 2004. Interesting angle, as this becomes more and more complex.

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2010/07/lance_armstrong_hires_criminal.php

And reinforces my belief that Ochowicz will be the upper management guy that will crack first. He can expose a long history involving many unless Wiesel can find a way to keep him quiet. I'll bet money would help...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

It's been suspected for some time by hardcore cycling fans that Hamilton would confess, even before this investigation started, it was only a matter of time. Despite the lies and his personal problems, most anyone close to Tyler says at his core he's a good person and a nice guy with a conscience. The same thing that eventually ate away at Floyd.

It's also been suspected for some time that the only thing holding back this confession is his wishing to hold onto his Olympic medal because apparently he feels he didn't dope any more or less than those he beat (and considering Eki, a former teammate at USPS, was the silver medalist...).

To me the medal, and staying out of jail, are what Tyler is hoping to keep a hold of on his side, and I imagine he's got plenty of stories to tell in exchange, and likely will.

 

[alvynmcq]

Very true Alp, it is the least they can do to let Tyler retain his medal. As I said he was on USPS before the arrival of Armstrong and Bruyneel so can probably tell the whole story of the transition on the team.

 

[Berzin]

Hamilton has plenty to talk about.

If anyone has ever seen his doping calendars from the Operation Puerto case (payments to Dr. Fuentes were made in the name of his then-wife Haven), it is not a stretch to assume that this guy was knee-deep in some serious doping for most of his professional career and that his ex-wife knows all about it. She should also be subpoenaed.

Nice guy or not, he, along with Landis, would never had made it in the European peloton without a massive intake of PED's. So they might as well speak, all of them.

It must really get them seeing Armstrong get away with his lies and getting rich off of them.

 

[131313]

Guess Dan Asipow better get a new spin going:

Steffen claims that today’s top riders are now using almost fail-proof methods of doping in the world’s biggest bike race.....“I’ve been told by a well-informed source from one of the teams about the methods,” Steffen said. “It’s so easy to do that there’s almost no chance of getting caught.”....

Osipow that Steffen’s claims had no basis in reality.

“Now he’s claiming of having sources within a ProTour team, but I don’t believe it,” Osipow said. “This is a U.S. team doctor. I don’t think he has any real extensions to Europe.

“To claim that Lance and Tyler have doped, that’s just crap. To shoot his mouth off like that, especially with all the details that are trying to be found out right now, and with our team, and Lance himself, being involved in the fight against doping.”

http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/10/news/former-u-s-postal-doctor-reaffirms-doping-claims_9005

It'll be nice to see Tyler man up, so good guys like Steffen who were slandered in the process of keeping the myth alive will finally be vindicated.

 

[Benotti69]

New SF Weekly article explores the relationship between Ochowicz and Hamilton as it relates to Olympic selections for 2004. Interesting angle, as this becomes more and more complex.

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2010/07/lance_armstrong_hires_criminal.php

well them people at Pubic Stratalies must be real busy trying to keep a handle on all these articles that pop up all over the place and what with trying to infiltrate blogs and forums, that must be using blood bags themselves to not get dropped on this one...

 

[Kennf1]

well them people at Pubic Stratalies must be real busy trying to keep a handle on all these articles that pop up all over the place and what with trying to infiltrate blogs and forums, that must be using blood bags themselves to not get dropped on this one...

I'm sure they get complimentary FRS drinks.

 

[Oldman]

Very true Alp, it is the least they can do to let Tyler retain his medal. As I said he was on USPS before the arrival of Armstrong and Bruyneel so can probably tell the whole story of the transition on the team.

He was there during the Eddie B time and Weisel's direct involvement. Don't know if that period set the tone but USPS was far from clean then.

 

[Kennf1]

Guess Dan Asipow better get a new spin going:

Steffen claims that today’s top riders are now using almost fail-proof methods of doping in the world’s biggest bike race.....“I’ve been told by a well-informed source from one of the teams about the methods,” Steffen said. “It’s so easy to do that there’s almost no chance of getting caught.”....

Osipow that Steffen’s claims had no basis in reality.

“Now he’s claiming of having sources within a ProTour team, but I don’t believe it,” Osipow said. “This is a U.S. team doctor. I don’t think he has any real extensions to Europe.

“To claim that Lance and Tyler have doped, that’s just crap. To shoot his mouth off like that, especially with all the details that are trying to be found out right now, and with our team, and Lance himself, being involved in the fight against doping.”

http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/10/news/former-u-s-postal-doctor-reaffirms-doping-claims_9005

It'll be nice to see Tyler man up, so good guys like Steffen who were slandered in the process of keeping the myth alive will finally be vindicated.

Wasn't the story that Tyler was one of the first ones who approached Steffen about getting a European "program," to which Steffen said no. And of course, Steffen was subsequently shown the door?

 

[flicker]

Landis is definitely telling the truth, at least most of it, but that doesn't mean he's credible as such. As you say, that's not a factor for the feds once the investagion is already under way and they've had a chance to corroborate his story in part or in whole, but it is important in the PR war. In that regard, Hamilton is more credible, even though for those who know what's actually going on in the cycling world you could argue he's less credible, since he hasn't come clean about his own doping and is still living the lie, unlike Landis.

edit: of course, the PR war is largely irrelevant at this point. If nothing weird happens and the investigation proceeds as it should, losing the PR war would just mean Armstrong is done for a bit sooner in the eyes of the public. PR will come in handy in a different way, when Armstrong tries to salvage what he can and survive the scandal.

excuse me. The man with the phantom twin. The man who was found with blood from another person in his vascular system. Credible Tyler? Hah, you make me laff!

 

[Hugh Januss]

excuse me. The man with the phantom twin. The man who was found with blood from another person in his vascular system. Credible Tyler? Hah, you make me laff!

Exactly, someone who (like Lance) knows all about doping.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

excuse me. The man with the phantom twin. The man who was found with blood from another person in his vascular system. Credible Tyler? Hah, you make me laff!

Just posted the link in the Flandis links section:

From Nightline preview:

We asked Landis about his changing version of events.

Nightline: You realize you have serious credibility issues?

Landis: I think that'd be an understatement.

Nightline: You're an admitted liar and cheat.

Landis: What -- what is a person supposed to do when they make the wrong decision? I mean, are you committed to that path for good? Are you -- once you tell a lie, are you committed to tell that lie forever?

When a person, who has lied, finally confesses, it is rare that the confession, especially one that the truth of which has long been suspected, is also called a lie. Takes a special kind of stupid.

 

[hrotha]

excuse me. The man with the phantom twin. The man who was found with blood from another person in his vascular system. Credible Tyler? Hah, you make me laff!

Yes, I do believe Tyler's credibility is better than Floyd's as far as the PR circus is concerned.