Hamilton the Songbird

[Maxiton]

Lance Armstrong killed cycling stone dead in 1999, following the Festina scandal they could have been a purge of doping and a new beginning instead he ushered in the law of silence and cast a long shadow over this sport to this very day. Armstrong apologists are the people who are holding this sport back and keeping it in the stone age.

I think you mean the corrupt, omerta age. And I agree, he did do that. But the likelihood is very great that if Armstrong hadn't, someone else would have. You only need to know the history and culture of the European peloton, to know that.

did Tyler work with Rudy over at rock racing?

Yes, but only for his depression.

You get no argument here. One of our friends was on the US swimming team that had to face Cornelia Ender and the rest of East Germany's shemales. She met some of them before they died of horrible complications from that experimental program and felt lucky to be alive.

How many of them died, any idea? And of what sort of complications? Any details about their program?

 

[Franklin]

You get no argument here. One of our friends was on the US swimming team that had to face Cornelia Ender and the rest of East Germany's shemales. She met some of them before they died of horrible complications from that experimental program and felt lucky to be alive.

True. the USA had in the 80's the cleanest cycling!

Also, Carl lewis was a saint towards evil evil Ben Johnson.

Moral of the story: The USA has quite a history on dope before the wall fell.

 

[Franklin]

That may be true, but he certainly was hugely overweight in March, for many years. Those photographs of him (too lazy to look up right now) at early season training camp with a serious gut are pretty damning.

Remember the infamous "Jan in a TT" picture where he has a balloon belly? Next pic is about Lance with a similar belly...

I met Jan a few times. He was scaringly skinny, as is every cyclist of stature. The hype about his weight is mostly hype and excuses.

The DS's who blamed Jan are very good in blaming others and doing naughty stuff

Noone will deny that the maniacal approach of Lance was one of the keys in his strength and that Jan would have been a different rider with that mentality, maybe even better (it's conjecture, some people need to let go once in a while). But Jan is who he is and all the "he has a weak character" nonsense is extremely annoying. Like any pro cyclist he had character in spades, otherwise you can't perform in this gruesome sport.

Jan is a different person than Lance with a different, maybe less efficient, approach. That's all.

 

[Escarabajo]

Coca Cola, Franklin and BPC:

"Two wrongs don't make a right"

 

[Realist]

That may be true, but he certainly was hugely overweight in March, for many years. Those photographs of him (too lazy to look up right now) at early season training camp with a serious gut are pretty damning. Can you name another major grand tour rider who packed on that kind of weight in the off-season? Merckx certainly didn't, or Hinault, and Indurian only did in the last year of his career, when it was time to hang up the cleats (and even then, he didn't have the kind of gut Ullrich packed on). And lord knows Armstrong didn't.

What kind of a serious young athlete in his prime puts on that kind of gut in the off-season? In my racing days I was only a US Cat 2, but I sure as hell watched my weight in the off-season.

Obviously the reasons why Ullrich let himself go like that in the winter are complex, and part of his psychology, but you can't tell me that starting the season in that kind of appalling shape doesn't have any impact on your ability to compete in the toughest sport in the world.

I just don't find this convincing. I've seen the photos, I've followed the story. If it severely compromised his ability to do the tour he wouldn't have been second that many times. Maybe his early season would have been easier if he hadn't been dropping weight, but you can't say he was not extremely diligent and disciplined in his preparation for the tour. His results are proof enough.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Back on topic and Hamilton.

What a lot of people don't realize is that this isn't an issue with him confessing in the open or giving information to the UCI. He will be testifying under oath to a federal grand jury and opening himself up to perjury charges if lying.

During grand jury testimonies individuals are alone in a court room with prosecutors, up to 23 grand jurors, and a court reporter. That's it. There will be no judge there, the individual's attorney cannot be present and has to wait outside. By federal law the jurors, prosecutors and court reporter cannot even acknowledge that such a hearing even took place until an indictment has been disclosed, or the case has been dismissed.

Keep that in mind when considering whether Hamilton, or Hincapie, or Zabriskie, or Lim, or anyone else, is "cooperating"or "testifying".

 

[ManInFull]

Back on topic and Hamilton.

What a lot of people don't realize is that this isn't an issue with him confessing in the open or giving information to the UCI. He will be testifying under oath to a federal grand jury and opening himself up to perjury charges if lying.

During grand jury testimonies individuals are alone in a court room with prosecutors, up to 23 grand jurors, and a court reporter. That's it. There will be no judge there, the individual's attorney cannot be present and has to wait outside. By federal law the jurors, prosecutors and court reporter cannot even acknowledge that such a hearing even took place until an indictment has been disclosed, or the case has been dismissed.

Keep that in mind when considering whether Hamilton, or Hincapie, or Zabriskie, or Lim, or anyone else, is "cooperating"or "testifying".

Well, you would think that this process would make it so easy for us to eventually learn the truth. It really depends on whether those testifying under the oath have the balls to lie. Anyway, I still would like to see indisputable evidence in addition to testimony.

 

[flicker]

So doping is OK for you?

.................................

It is not OK with me. If you have watched this sport for as long as I have it is a fact of life. If you know how to cleanse the sport of the scourge of doping I am all ears. Take a look at the title of this thread, the joker Hamilton said his blood was tainted by a dead twin in his mothers womb. Give me a break Tyler. Tyler, Haven and Tugboat had a daily blog in Velonews during the tour. Tell me, the all American boy Tyler, with his beautiful wife and loveable Golden Retreiver pretty good front for a doper eh? Tell me doping ends if Pharmstrong is indicted. I do not think so. Just another old racehorse taken out to pasture and shot. Many more where Lance came from.

 

[Boeing]

It is not OK with me. If you have watched this sport for as long as I have it is a fact of life. If you know how to cleanse the sport of the scourge of doping I am all ears. Take a look at the title of this thread, the joker Hamilton said his blood was tainted by a dead twin in his mothers womb. Give me a break Tyler. Tyler, Haven and Tugboat had a daily blog in Velonews during the tour. Tell me, the all American boy Tyler, with his beautiful wife and loveable Golden Retreiver pretty good front for a doper eh? Tell me doping ends if Pharmstrong is indicted. I do not think so. Just another old racehorse taken out to pasture and shot. Many more where Lance came from.

You are dead on the money

it is, was and will still be so extreme and recovery so difficult I will outrageously suggest that these guys find it difficult to distinguish between Yoohoo, gatorage and EPO still

 

[Polish]

Back on topic and Hamilton.

What a lot of people don't realize is that this isn't an issue with him confessing in the open or giving information to the UCI. He will be testifying under oath to a federal grand jury and opening himself up to perjury charges if lying.

During grand jury testimonies individuals are alone in a court room with prosecutors, up to 23 grand jurors, and a court reporter. That's it. There will be no judge there, the individual's attorney cannot be present and has to wait outside. By federal law the jurors, prosecutors and court reporter cannot even acknowledge that such a hearing even took place until an indictment has been disclosed, or the case has been dismissed.

Keep that in mind when considering whether Hamilton, or Hincapie, or Zabriskie, or Lim, or anyone else, is "cooperating"or "testifying".

When Tyler gives testimony before the Grand Jury in LA, will he be asked questions about Rock Racing or US Postal?

Do you think Tyler was naughtier at Rock Racing or at US Postal?
Or maybe Phonak?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

So if Tyler was "naughty" and Novitzy still finds ample logical evidence that Lance and others doped, and broke the law, at USPS it should be dismissed?

Just another old racehorse taken out to pasture and shot. Many more where Lance came from.

I don't get your point? You're saying doping is not okay. Then calling TH out as a hypocrite (of which most don't argue) and saying more are worse than Lance (probably true). What are you saying exactly? Are you saying we should not fight doping? Or if not, what are you offering as counter suggestion to what is being done to this investigation?

Or is there no solution in your mind, and many worse dopers in the past, so we should just dismiss the whole thing and give up trying to clean up the sport, even if it involves criminal activity?

It makes me wonder how you feel about other crimes difficult to fight.

 

[flicker]

So if Tyler was "naughty" and Novitzy still finds ample logical evidence that Lance and others doped, and broke the law, at USPS it should be dismissed?


I don't get your point? You're saying doping is not okay. Then calling TH out as a hypocrite (of which most don't argue) and saying more are worse than Lance (probably true). What are you saying exactly? Are you saying we should not fight doping? Or if not, what are you offering as counter suggestion to what is being done to this investigation?

Or is there no solution in your mind, and many worse dopers in the past, so we should just dismiss the whole thing and give up trying to clean up the sport, even if it involves criminal activity?

It makes me wonder how you feel about other crimes difficult to fight.

Innocent until proven guilty,Lance. If it is proven everything the haters on the forum have said I will be right in there with the haters. I do not agree with the way Greg L. has presented his case against Armstrong. I also believe Greg to be a hypocrite.
As an American I believe that many in our country ie:GWBush, D. Cheney and Greg oversimplify complex problems and then get out the shotguns and shoot the most likely hated target,ie: Saddam Hussein, Lance Armstrong.

There are villins out there but I say go after them in a thoughtful, meaningful and lasting way.

As far as the drug world and the criminal court system, it is twisted and unfair. The one with the most dollars wins in these cases.

I think Novitsky is barking up the wrong tree. I do not think he knows cycling or doping.

 

[MacRoadie]

As an American I believe that many in our country ie:GWBush, D. Cheney and Greg oversimplify complex problems and then get out the shotguns and shoot the most likely hated target,ie: Saddam Hussein, Lance Armstrong.

I have a feeling Greg would be the last person to point a shotgun at anyone.

 

[Anonymous]

That's what I'm talkin bout Willis. In order for the serious doping,(not the lightweight type of Gregs' era and before we need to study the Eastern block and German athletes. The stuff about Festina and Pharm boy are only trivia compared to that. They started the real science of doping. Others followed and refined but the Eastern block is the culpret.

It is the Russians who caused all this??????

 

[Anonymous]

I have a feeling Greg would be the last person to point a shotgun at anyone.

That is un Merican!

You want shotguns? Try Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels.

 

[flicker]

This is what I would do. Get with the anti-doping agencies say in 3 major sports.Cycling could be one Soccer another and NFL. Test the athletes. Those who test positive have a choice. Work with the authorities give us the names of the suppliers Doctors/quacks, if the teams and managers are involved. No arrests for 3 years, just intelligence gathering and case building. When the case is built take down the whole ring. If it is taxes owed, fraud etc. fine the offenders 10X the amount owed. + jail time. The DEA and law enforcemnt was never designed to stop dopers. Is Novitzkyany different. If you think that guy is going to stop or slow doping in sports I have a bridge to sell you...

 

[Benotti69]

This is what I would do. Get with the anti-doping agencies say in 3 major sports.Cycling could be one Soccer another and NFL. Test the athletes. Those who test positive have a choice. Work with the authorities give us the names of the suppliers Doctors/quacks, if the teams and managers are involved. No arrests for 3 years, just intelligence gathering and case building. When the case is built take down the whole ring. If it is taxes owed, fraud etc. fine the offenders 10X the amount owed. + jail time. The DEA and law enforcemnt was never designed to stop dopers. Is Novitzkyany different. If you think that guy is going to stop or slow doping in sports I have a bridge to sell you...

the suggestion that Novitsky was never going to slow or stop it. that comes from the athletes themselves when and if they see that the DS is full of sh!t and if they get caught the DS walks while they pay for doping, with 2 years minimum no pay watching from the sidelines and sponsors walking off to the next victim..

if it does not happen well at least one of the biggest culprits in the sport will hopefully get done for it one way or another and if others don't learn from this more fool them.

 

[flicker]

the suggestion that Novitsky was never going to slow or stop it. that comes from the athletes themselves when and if they see that the DS is full of sh!t and if they get caught the DS walks while they pay for doping, with 2 years minimum no pay watching from the sidelines and sponsors walking off to the next victim..

if it does not happen well at least one of the biggest culprits in the sport will hopefully get done for it one way or another and if others don't learn from this more fool them.

Find the dopers, follow the money trail, investigate, prosecute and fine. I just thought of this, why couldn't Greg?

What a great way to stop doping. Find one athlete positive at the Olympics and ban the country from the next Olympics. Take that Tyler Hamilton/Alexi Grewal.

Pow pow, right between the eyes.

 

[Oldman]

Find the dopers, follow the money trail, investigate, prosecute and fine. I just thought of this, why couldn't Greg?

What a great way to stop doping. Find one athlete positive at the Olympics and ban the country from the next Olympics. Take that Tyler Hamilton/Alexi Grewal.

Pow pow, right between the eyes.

So all we'd have left at the Olympics is the Jamaican bobsled tea....oh, wait...not them either.

 

[flicker]

So all we'd have left at the Olympics is the Jamaican bobsled tea....oh, wait...not them either.

so cynical, so true..

 

[flicker]

I love that scene in the "Good Fellas" where Ray Liotta comes back from serving time in jail and his mafia brethren welcome him back into the world with "hey you popped your cherry".....

 

[straydog]

So all we'd have left at the Olympics is the Jamaican bobsled tea....oh, wait...not them either.

....no not them either....but then maybe some on here might actually have some basis for their "I coulda been a contender" lines

 

[straydog]

It is not OK with me. If you have watched this sport for as long as I have it is a fact of life. If you know how to cleanse the sport of the scourge of doping I am all ears. Take a look at the title of this thread, the joker Hamilton said his blood was tainted by a dead twin in his mothers womb. Give me a break Tyler. Tyler, Haven and Tugboat had a daily blog in Velonews during the tour. Tell me, the all American boy Tyler, with his beautiful wife and loveable Golden Retreiver pretty good front for a doper eh? Tell me doping ends if Pharmstrong is indicted. I do not think so. Just another old racehorse taken out to pasture and shot. Many more where Lance came from.

+1 Very well put....I will be hell of a lot more "optimistic" and judgemental when someone discovers the magic wand

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Juxtaposed with all this pessimism regarding the possibility of stopping doping is the remarkable success France has had in cracking down on doping by their own athletes.

 

[hrotha]

Of course it's hard to clean up the sport, but the dramatic and spectacular shake-up this case should provide is a golden opportunity to do it. Like Festina, but potentially ten times bigger.