Has anyone changed their mind about doping?

[rhubroma]

I see nothing particularly controversial about the notion that different societies have different views on different things. Including doping.

Seriously, no matter how inconsequential Axelsson was, you just need to compare that to how much of Spanish society treats its own dopers. Even no-names.

edit: oh, and while there's plenty of cynics, there's ALSO plenty of people who think it all boils down to French jealousy when someone is caught. They're always ready to believe whatever excuse the athlete uses. For casual sports fans, I'd say they are the majority.

Someone once said that among the Northern-Protestant European countries ethics are valued above esthetics, whereas among the Latin-Catholic countries esthetics above ethics.

Now this is a broad generalization for sure and we all know that morals aren't the privy of one group over another; however, at the same time, a certain perception about "right from wrong" in terms of a rigidly absolute sense vs. something more nuanced and subjective (one could say "elastic") does seem to distinguish the two cultures and always has.

Now, having said that, if chance, or need, or both arises; someone from Sweden is just as likely to dope as one from Spain, someone from Great Britain will be just as prone to enhancement as one from Italy. The only difference is how some societies are judged to hold higher moral standards over others.

It's thus not by chance that there is no ironically titled thread, "Italians don't dope."

 

[blackcat]

Someone once said that among the Northern-Protestant European countries ethics are valued above esthetics, whereas among the Latin-Catholic countries esthetics above ethics.

Now this is a broad generalization for sure and we all know that morals aren't the privy of one group over another; however, at the same time, a certain perception about "right from wrong" in terms of a rigidly absolute sense vs. something more nuanced and subjective (one could say "elastic") does seem to distinguish the two cultures and always has.

Now, having said that, if chance, or need, or both arises; someone from Sweden is just as likely to dope as one from Spain, someone from Great Britain will be just as prone to enhancement as one from Italy. The only difference is how some societies are judged to hold higher moral standards over others.

It's thus not by chance that there is no ironically titled thread, "Italians don't dope."

gets even more murky when it becomes about perception and appearances.

It is not a coincidence that Brailsford publicly adopted his no-doping stance, just like JV and USPS/Armstrong/Livestrong.

anti-doping resonates strongly in the anglophone domiciles. It has cache and can be commoditised. There is value to JV's strategy.

The problem, if it is indeed a problem, is reflected in the paradox. The riders are openly doping, while openly condemning doping, and condemning some bad dopers, (Ricco), whilst praising some like Armstrong (see:Talansky and Wiggins and Evans).

one can possibly argue about my qualifier openly doping. Lets say they are not openly doping for this sake.

Good teams, good clean riders (see: Moncoutie), and the bad teams (Cofidis, ONCE), bad riders (Vino, Ricco) just seek to perpetuate this dichotomy.

its not a dichotomy in reality, there are no divisions between all the categories I mentioned.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

gets even more murky when it becomes about perception and appearances.

It is not a coincidence that Brailsford publicly adopted his no-doping stance, just like JV and USPS/Armstrong/Livestrong.

anti-doping resonates strongly in the anglophone domiciles. It has cache and can be commoditised. There is value to JV's strategy.

The problem, if it is indeed a problem, is reflected in the paradox. The riders are opening doping, while openly condemning doping, and condemning some bad dopes, (Ricco), whilst praising some like Armstrong (see:Talansky and Wiggins and Evans).

one can possibly argue about my qualifier openly doping. Lets say they are not openly doping for this sake.

Good teams, good clean riders (see: Moncoutie), and the bad teams (Cofidis, ONCE), bad riders (Vino, Ricco) just seek to perpetuate this dichotomy.

its not a dichotomoy in reality, there are no divisions between all the categories I mentioned.

And thus was born, anti-doping theatre.

 

[blackcat]

And thus was born, anti-doping theatre.

indeed.

my spelling typo corrected and kenneth branagh

 

[alspacka]

All these posts suggesting culture & socialisation play no part in doping are objectively wrong. It's not debatable.

I don't know enough about Swedish sport to say if he's right or not, but the implication that Walkman is somehow racist for suggesting doping is not as prevalent as elsewhere is an absolute joke.

 

[No_Balls]

I see nothing particularly controversial about the notion that different societies have different views on different things. Including doping.

Nothing controversial there. But it does of course become a problem when that stance becomes accepted by the fans that their active becomes as morally clean and sanctimonous as their societity says they are. How can one speak of a clean sport when there are no governing body who controls it?

Seriously, no matter how inconsequential Axelsson was, you just need to compare that to how much of Spanish society treats its own dopers. Even no-names.

With the only really difference that in Sweden it is a preparation to sacrifice some lesser names (in lesser sports) for the greater good and to keep the world view established. The other example with Bäckström who got caught with banned substances the blame was immediately put on everyone but Bäckström: "corrupt russians" who "dopes themselves" (didn't even care to check that it is a banned substance in the Olympic universe - but allowed in NHL), and finally the blame ended at the team doctors who subscribed it.

The idea to throw competitors to the wolves once caught out is not troublefree and gets ugly at times. Mikael Ljungberg, in a small sport like wrestling, were pointed out as doper and had trouble to solve his own name. He committed suicide. An unthinkable scenario if he was a swedish NHL-player were every form of excuses would have been mustered why he did it (or how he was forced to do it by evil foreigners).

edit: oh, and while there's plenty of cynics, there's ALSO plenty of people who think it all boils down to French jealousy when someone is caught. They're always ready to believe whatever excuse the athlete uses. For casual sports fans, I'd say they are the majority.

The nationalistic/jingoistic bias. Wouldnt believe how many prepared to do that routine (newspaper, most of the time).

 

[Tonton]

While it is obvious that cultures are different and it may be more acceptable to cheat (doping, not paying taxes...) in southern Europe than in the northern part, I very much doubt that culture would deter a competitor from doping. To me, once you make it in the top 1% in your field, it becomes an obsession to do whatever it takes to get a little bit better. Also, with very few exceptions, athletes at this level evolve in an international environment: cultural differences get blurred, all have in common the will to be on top. When riding or playing for a US team, Swedes do what the other guys do. Cultural differences are a myth in that respect: It's not like each nationality stays within its borders, and say, competes only internationally every four years at the Olympics. Sports have become global, just like everything else.

 

[naviman]

When there is a lot of money in a sport there will be doping. I think it helps me enjoy watching sport more, not having to keep questioning if what I'm seeing is real or not.

I still don't know what to make of people who choose not to dope. I feel very sorry for them, especially if they decide to talk about it and their lives get absolutely destroyed for daring to do so.

I completely understand if athletes choose to dope because they don't have much choice. However, I really respect those who choose not to. I really struggle to reconcile those two seemingly incompatible opinions

 

[yespatterns]

When there is a lot of money in a sport there will be doping. I think it helps me enjoy watching sport more, not having to keep questioning if what I'm seeing is real or not.

I still don't know what to make of people who choose not to dope. I feel very sorry for them, especially if they decide to talk about it and their lives get absolutely destroyed for daring to do so.

I completely understand if athletes choose to dope because they don't have much choice. However, I really respect those who choose not to. I really struggle to reconcile those two seemingly incompatible opinions

This. I'm not into the nationalistic angle the thread has taken, but whatever. The prospect to make oodles of money tends to make people from all over a lot alike.

 

[Dr.Guess]

Here's what I think you where asking for.

Thread:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=22758

Website/article:
http://www.theouterline.com/setting-a-new-ethical-standard-in-pro-cycling/


The must-read part is of course a personal judgement..

I think the website includes some interesting articles in general.

Thank you, im sure it were those I had in mind.


About The above posts I have to say that I agree to some sort. Perhaps it is an age thing, knowledge thing or something else. I thought about it during The Us open in tennis. Did I care about Federers alleged doping? Not as much as Cilic. Some idols are dead, some are retired. Now I care about entertainment and something to keep me from not dieing from work boredom. When I was a kid I wanted idols and heroes.

 

[mrhender]

I find it hard to belive that cyclists enters this sport with the aim of doping to get rich.. It's actually not a very well-paid sport, only to the top 10% can remotely compare to other "big" sports.. There's a lot more, less dfficult ways of getting rich, and without the risk of temp-and life bans, public ridicule etc...

The sad thing is, that once you've chosen this path (pro-cycling)
It is a path of multiple sacrifices (family,friends,lifestyle, etc)
So when the day comes, that some realise the only way to get a pro-contract and keep it... Is to dope...

Some are pathological lying *******s, but that's not any different from "real life" A lot of suckers out there too...

Once you've chosen to dope, it must be almost impossible to stop..

I don't really have a problem with the dopers, other than they are deprying clean folks the spot... I do however dislike the enablers and those that knowingly capitalize on it, while at the same time claiming knightship or the likes..

I have never felt love or hate to singular cyclists, but I do love the sport.
From a forum perspective, I think that the love/hate part often becomes an obstacle for the ability to undertake a "healthy" perspective to the grand scheme of things..

 

[rhubroma]

While it is obvious that cultures are different and it may be more acceptable to cheat (doping, not paying taxes...) in southern Europe than in the northern part, I very much doubt that culture would deter a competitor from doping. To me, once you make it in the top 1% in your field, it becomes an obsession to do whatever it takes to get a little bit better. Also, with very few exceptions, athletes at this level evolve in an international environment: cultural differences get blurred, all have in common the will to be on top. When riding or playing for a US team, Swedes do what the other guys do. Cultural differences are a myth in that respect: It's not like each nationality stays within its borders, and say, competes only internationally every four years at the Olympics. Sports have become global, just like everything else.

Ok, but what gets sold in sport? Why is Sky, like USPostal before, branded as clean?

 

[DirtyWorks]

I don't really have a problem with the dopers, other than they are deprying clean folks the spot..

Not a direct criticism, but the problem with this benign neglect is it enables doping children. We have plenty of history where that's already happened.

Secondarily, if we are to honour the rules of the game, then the game has some integrity. There is some confidence the best rider on the day is clean-ish, sort-of human scale performance.

Enabling doping as the IOC has done and the UCI embraces discredits the idea it's a sport. It's not a sport with doping permitted. It's not even like a duathlon, dope, then ride. It's made ridiculous by the UCI almost randomly enforcing anti-doping turning it into entertainment wrestling with the UCI picking the winners from a short list of qualifiers at every race.

 

[mrhender]

Not a direct criticism, but the problem with this benign neglect is it enables doping children. We have plenty of history where that's already happened.

Secondarily, if we are to honour the rules of the game, then the game has some integrity. There is some confidence the best rider on the day is clean-ish, sort-of human scale performance.

Enabling doping as the IOC has done and the UCI embraces discredits the idea it's a sport. It's not a sport with doping permitted. It's not even like a duathlon, dope, then ride. It's made ridiculous by the UCI almost randomly enforcing anti-doping turning it into entertainment wrestling with the UCI picking the winners from a short list of qualifiers at every race.

Yes.. I might sound a bit laissez faire. I'am actually not.

I have just reached a point, where I think that it's out of the dopers hands..
They cannot change things at will...
As you point out, we need change in "law enforcement"..
I think this has to come before anything else...

You also mention the children and honoring the rules of the game..
Recent development shows that pro-cycling is gaining popularity and wievers in new areas.. I guess they believe this new "clean" product sold by Cookson and Brailsford to GB,China,Africa etc..
Ready to fool a new generation...
This is what troubles me the most, young kids believing this **** and pursuing something that can't be done without dope...
All the new "naive" fans, due to -performing backdated cognitive consonanse...

Those riders already caught in the web, can't do **** to change this sport..

 

[DirtyWorks]

Those riders already caught in the web, can't do **** to change this sport..

Exactly right. Which, is why I take such offense to the same old "lone athlete dopes self" story that is published with so many cases. It's as if the PED's fall out of the sky. If anyone dare wonder about about the steady flow of identical stories and how maybe that's not the whole picture, then you are labeled with the usual random assortment of personal attacks to marginalize the inquiry.

 

[doperhopper]

I find it hard to belive that cyclists enters this sport with the aim of doping to get rich.. It's actually not a very well-paid sport, only to the top 10% can remotely compare to other "big" sports.. There's a lot more, less dfficult ways of getting rich, and without the risk of temp-and life bans, public ridicule etc...

The sad thing is, that once you've chosen this path (pro-cycling)
It is a path of multiple sacrifices (family,friends,lifestyle, etc)
So when the day comes, that some realise the only way to get a pro-contract and keep it... Is to dope...

Some are pathological lying *******s, but that's not any different from "real life" A lot of suckers out there too...

Once you've chosen to dope, it must be almost impossible to stop..

I don't really have a problem with the dopers, other than they are deprying clean folks the spot... I do however dislike the enablers and those that knowingly capitalize on it, while at the same time claiming knightship or the likes..

... and write Mein Climb, etc.

 

[proffate]

The sad thing is, that once you've chosen this path (pro-cycling)
It is a path of multiple sacrifices (family,friends,lifestyle, etc)

Not to mention integrity. And another, less forgiving word for "sacrifice" would be "neglect". I'm kind of tired of the glamorization of narcissism that characterizes elite (pro and amateur) cycling...

Cycling is very much like a drug addiction. It makes you think it's the only thing of any importance. It forces you to (willingly!) give up everything you hold dear. So it's not entirely surprising that its victims would become literal drug addicts to keep getting that "hit".

 

[Archibald]

And then you offer as your empirical evidence for this outlandish claim, the amount of positive tests a country has had

I do like his conclusions on the positive test "facts", especially when there's only 2 logical conclusions that can come from it;
a) the Swedes are just better at not getting caught than the Russians, or
b) that the Swedish testers aren't as good as their Russian counterparts

Once you've chosen to dope, it must be almost impossible to stop..

No, no, no, it's easy. Just ask George - he and all the others just stopped back in 2006

 

[mrhender]

Not to mention integrity. And another, less forgiving word for "sacrifice" would be "neglect". I'm kind of tired of the glamorization of narcissism that characterizes elite (pro and amateur) cycling...

Cycling is very much like a drug addiction. It makes you think it's the only thing of any importance. It forces you to (willingly!) give up everything you hold dear. So it's not entirely surprising that its victims would become literal drug addicts to keep getting that "hit".

Yes. Actions has consequenses. A lot of collateral damage has taken place beacause of this neglect.... Which begs the question. Why are they doing this..

You partly answer it yourself. They get in so deep, so that the moral compass gets damaged or superseded by this compulsive behavior..
I would never "glamorize the narcissism" to use your words.
Nor will I demonise them..

They are reduced to kids left alone with a candy bowl -and the instructuion not to touch it... One or two can't help themselves and start grabbing the candy.
Now the adults here are the UCI.. But somehow they often fail to react to this cheating, or even worse they have favorite kids that they allow to cheat..

Other kids will see this, and will eventually follow suit. It becomes self-enforcing. Because the alternative is getting zero, while watching the original sinners cleaning the bowl...

The odd thing is, the seemingly lack of snitches.
Surely if enough was clean, they would eventually rat out on the cheaters so that they could keep the bowl to themselves?

Maybe the adults, just doesn't care enough.... They just put the bowl forward and close their eyes.. Then once in a while they perform their enforcement duty, so that the world won't regard them weak...

Could also be, that most kids are not in possesion of a clean conscience.
Ratting out is digging their own grave as well..

 

[Tonton]

Ok, but what gets sold in sport? Why is Sky, like USPostal before, branded as clean?

To me, and I could be completely wrong, UCI, ASO, all the Corleones of the sport have made the decision to grow the pie. It started with the success of Ullrich in the late '90s, the explosion of cycling, bike sales in Germany, TV rights, the realization that if it's a four or five country business, the horizon is limited. They had already had a taste of America with LeMond, and Lance was a god-given gift, opening the US market. And although riders are still largely underpaid, money in and around pro-cycling has multiplied like never before. After the US, the UK was a logical step, an under performing market next door. Then Eastern Europe. When I see all the publicity make around the one Chinese rider at last time's TdF, I think that I know where it's going. All about the $. Broom doping under the carpet. Pretend it's not there, cover up if need be. They're great salespeople, I give them that. They won't say "look, the apple I'm selling is rotten to the core". They will call it ripe . And the apple pie is getting bigger.

 

[blackcat]

Ok, but what gets sold in sport? Why is Sky, like USPostal before, branded as clean?

its a mirror myth the patrons in those countries tell themselves. The counter is, it is relative, we are clean versus you are dirty.

I like it best when Lampre spoke of Slipstream as "those @rseholes" because of the hifalutin rhetoric emanating from Boulder

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

As TonTon mentioned it has nothing to do with Conscience or Right or Wrong any longer it is about money
Why is blood doping allowed in soccer as a way of reducing recovery times, because there is too much money in it.
Why are the IOC against Doping Positives - Because you cant damage the brand of the Olympics - And it is a BRAND
Cycling is just following all the other big money sports
NFL, NBA, MLB, Football, Tennis, etc
the money men get involved and no-one can afford a scandal, Do you think when it takes upwards of 30 million to run a top team for a year that there isn't a significant amount of that which goes towards protecting the BRAND - whether that is in geeting the right drugs to the right people or paying for the silence of certain individuals or organisations.

Think back 15 years and 1 lone athlete practically bankrupted british athletics on her own.

BCF and UCI are no different.
ASO or any of the race organisers or teams could bury them and bankrupt them if they ever went after one of the current stars to protect their Brands

Cyclists will do as they are told and once in a while a b rate or retired rider will be thrown to the wolves as a sacrifice.

If anyone thinks that will change now with TV money and all the other investments in cycling you are deluded.

This is the paradigm of professional cycling - get used to it.

 

[Benotti69]

its a mirror myth the patrons in those countries tell themselves. The counter is, it is relative, we are clean versus you are dirty.

I like it best when Lampre spoke of Slipstream as "those @rseholes" because of the hifalutin rhetoric emanating from Boulder

that hifalutin rhetoric has given way to blatant sexism and utter drivel via Vaughters twitter......

 

[sponsor]

Just curious. I've become more sympathetic to the pressure since having a family and making moral decisions based more on livelihood than idealism. I can't help but feel bad for riders in the same --basic-- spot. Anyone else feel the same?

I put the burden on the competition authorities and don't like rolling back results.

I'm fine with busting dopers/any cheaters at the event, but would like the book closed after the awards are given.

As to dopers - just like any cheating. I expect many athletes to cheat and its not fair to have them police themselves. That is why I put it on the authorities.

 

[Archibald]

I'm fine with busting dopers/any cheaters at the event, but would like the book closed after the awards are given.

not sure they can always get the results in that fast from the final few stages of any GT or week long stage race?