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Heart Aliments- Result of Genetics, Doping or over exercise?

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Sep 29, 2012
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To clarify: yes, it might be congenital.

To say doping has no bearing or impact is to be blind to the reality of pro cycling. Doping allows over exercising, no question. These guys would probably have never seen any issues if they were normally aspirated.

Check the timeline of Mick "teflon clen" Rogers:

3 x WC TT
mediocre-ish
Sky's captains lose weight and gain TT power and Mick follows suit, losing weight to 16-y-o levels and best power ever.
Mick leaves sky and gets done for Clen
 
Re:

therhodeo said:
My son has a fairly complex congenital heart defect and I can say this, they're much much more common than people realize and oftentimes the people who have them don't know.
Yep, most find out about them at the autopsy...
I'll never forget watching a mate die of a heart attack in front of us, at school, aged 15... we were told it was a congenital heart defect.
The next year, we had a 14 y.o. also die of "a congenital heart defect"...

I found out about mine after it was involved in giving me a stroke
 
a friend of mine had a stroke when he was 45. absolutely no warning at all. He had been a Navy Seal, completed several IM's including Kona, ultra swims, climbed Mt Everest. He was very fit. Was not healthy.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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Re: Heart Aliments- Result of Genetics, Doping or over exerc

veganrob said:
a friend of mine had a stroke when he was 45. absolutely no warning at all. He had been a Navy Seal, completed several IM's including Kona, ultra swims, climbed Mt Everest. He was very fit. Was not healthy.
You have hit the nail on the head. Fit does not = healthy. I also don't believe you can mitigate health against bad lifestyle choices e.g. I had 10 cigarettes yesterday and ate a load of junk but I am doing 100ks on the bike tomorrow.

My tuppence worth - my old man passed away last year at 70. A lifelong cyclist, he smoked a bit, drunk no more than anyone else and consistently went on 4-5 hr rides. He was on blood pressure tabs but no other medication. Good diet what I would describe as French/Mediterranean. He got a bad chest infection and then had a stroke. (3 of my 4 grandparents succumbed to strokes)

This came as a shock as I had always thought it the kind of thing that happens to fat/unfit people.

Anyhow I had a check up a few months later and all was okay save for my cholesterol which at 5.2 was considered high (I too have what I would call a good diet but could be more active). Doc said to look at my diet. Cut a long story short I realised that there are two schools of thought on cholesterol (a) the low fat mediteranean diet camp (b) the refined carbs and sugar camp.

The 2nd camp made more sense to me and I found the following website - http://www.marksdailyapple.com/ at about that time. In a nutshell this guy was an endurance athlete who realised that years of what he calls "chronic cardio" was wrecking him and that this combined with a high sugar and refined carb diet was wrecking us all with "chronic inflammation".

He advocates on diet - sticking to a largely paleo diet of veg, meat and fat and laying off sugar and carbs like rice and pasta.

On fitness - mainly fat burning below 75% max hr,3-5 hrs a week (easy cycling, walking etc), 2-3 bodyweight sessions and 1 sprint session a week (on foot or bike).

I can only say that I feel great on the regime, maybe not riding at 19mph any more but not constantly tired with aching legs. I had a conversation with a vegan mate of mine on the merits of our regimes and we concluded we will only know who was "right" when we are both 6 ft under!!
 
the fear of carbohydrates is irrational. that Volek guy can't even defend his theories when debating with well respect nutrition experts (you can search his debate with Alan Aragon). he's just another Gary Taubes, spreading the fear of sugar. Unfortunately for him, the consumption of sugar has decreased in the last few years, but obesity keeps increasing.
 
Jul 18, 2010
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There's been professional bicycle races since the 1860s. And Tours de France, need I remind you, for 112 years. And it stands to reason that the racers put themselves under just as much stress back then as riders do now (if not more). Which amounts essentially to hundreds of thousands of competitors training and racing tens of thousands of kilometers annually. And many more amateurs doing likewise. Like the silly sterility/impotence myth, if it were occurring at a statistically significant rate, that fact should by this time be self-evident.

The PEDs themselves generally are not dangerous, it's when they're used "off-label," without proper monitoring, or in dosages significantly in excess of what was demonstrated safe in trials that they become Darwin Award candidates. And these days, any number of athletes obviously are a walking PEDs bouillabaisse.
 
May 14, 2010
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Re:

StyrbjornSterki said:
There's been professional bicycle races since the 1860s. And Tours de France, need I remind you, for 112 years. And it stands to reason that the racers put themselves under just as much stress back then as riders do now (if not more). Which amounts essentially to hundreds of thousands of competitors training and racing tens of thousands of kilometers annually. And many more amateurs doing likewise. Like the silly sterility/impotence myth, if it were occurring at a statistically significant rate, that fact should by this time be self-evident.

The PEDs themselves generally are not dangerous, it's when they're used "off-label," without proper monitoring, or in dosages significantly in excess of what was demonstrated safe in trials that they become Darwin Award candidates. And these days, any number of athletes obviously are a walking PEDs bouillabaisse.
Great line. :)
 
Re: Heart Aliments- Result of Genetics, Doping or over exerc

B_Ugli said:
veganrob said:
a friend of mine had a stroke when he was 45. absolutely no warning at all. He had been a Navy Seal, completed several IM's including Kona, ultra swims, climbed Mt Everest. He was very fit. Was not healthy.
You have hit the nail on the head. Fit does not = healthy. I also don't believe you can mitigate health against bad lifestyle choices e.g. I had 10 cigarettes yesterday and ate a load of junk but I am doing 100ks on the bike tomorrow.

My tuppence worth - my old man passed away last year at 70. A lifelong cyclist, he smoked a bit, drunk no more than anyone else and consistently went on 4-5 hr rides. He was on blood pressure tabs but no other medication. Good diet what I would describe as French/Mediterranean. He got a bad chest infection and then had a stroke. (3 of my 4 grandparents succumbed to strokes)

This came as a shock as I had always thought it the kind of thing that happens to fat/unfit people.

Anyhow I had a check up a few months later and all was okay save for my cholesterol which at 5.2 was considered high (I too have what I would call a good diet but could be more active). Doc said to look at my diet. Cut a long story short I realised that there are two schools of thought on cholesterol (a) the low fat mediteranean diet camp (b) the refined carbs and sugar camp.

The 2nd camp made more sense to me and I found the following website - http://www.marksdailyapple.com/ at about that time. In a nutshell this guy was an endurance athlete who realised that years of what he calls "chronic cardio" was wrecking him and that this combined with a high sugar and refined carb diet was wrecking us all with "chronic inflammation".

He advocates on diet - sticking to a largely paleo diet of veg, meat and fat and laying off sugar and carbs like rice and pasta.

On fitness - mainly fat burning below 75% max hr,3-5 hrs a week (easy cycling, walking etc), 2-3 bodyweight sessions and 1 sprint session a week (on foot or bike).

I can only say that I feel great on the regime, maybe not riding at 19mph any more but not constantly tired with aching legs. I had a conversation with a vegan mate of mine on the merits of our regimes and we concluded we will only know who was "right" when we are both 6 ft under!!
Hope you are feeling better and can continue to ride some. It is one thing as we get older to begrudgungly give in th the fact that we no longer are as fast as we used to be, but heart ailments are a different ballgame.
I only noticed problem last year, age 60, when bicuspid aorta was discovered. Born with it. Dr says to just keep up what I am doing though. I passed the stress test with flying colors. I still have some bad sensations when heart rate gets up higher. i'll need surgery eventually when the procedures are perfected.
I have lived vegan lifestyle for 38 years now and it works for me. I have lived longer than all of the males in my family going back 3 generations so I am doing something right. Bad genes will catch up with you. Do diet that works for you. I am not that arrogant to think vegan diet will work best for everyone.
Best wishes to you
Rob
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re:

StyrbjornSterki said:
And these days, any number of athletes obviously are a walking PEDs bouillabaisse.
inandof themself, on the single individual application, you were right, and you are right when you imply the way they are cocktailed, no one knows how they will work...

but in the long run, p'raps even bodybuilding is safer than a sedentary lifestyle with tobacco and alcohol and the legal medications...
 
Re:

veganrob said:
a friend of mine had a stroke when he was 45. absolutely no warning at all. He had been a Navy Seal, completed several IM's including Kona, ultra swims, climbed Mt Everest. He was very fit. Was not healthy.
Had my stroke last year and am a while off 45... this was how they 'found' my heart 'condition', as it was the hole that allowed the blood clot access to the brain...

veganrob said:
Hope you are feeling better and can continue to ride some. It is one thing as we get older to begrudgungly give in th the fact that we no longer are as fast as we used to be, but heart ailments are a different ballgame.
I only noticed problem last year, age 60, when bicuspid aorta was discovered. Born with it. Dr says to just keep up what I am doing though. I passed the stress test with flying colors. I still have some bad sensations when heart rate gets up higher. i'll need surgery eventually when the procedures are perfected.
I have lived vegan lifestyle for 38 years now and it works for me. I have lived longer than all of the males in my family going back 3 generations so I am doing something right. Bad genes will catch up with you. Do diet that works for you. I am not that arrogant to think vegan diet will work best for everyone.
Best wishes to you
Rob
This is interesting - have you heard of T Colin Campbell and Dr Caldwell (I think) Esseltyn? (might need to check that spelling)
Esseltyn's plant-based diet has had some brilliant success in reversing heart disease... Campbell has photos of 'repaired' ateries in patients of Esseltyns, in his book on diet/cancer studies
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Re: Re:

blackcat said:
StyrbjornSterki said:
And these days, any number of athletes obviously are a walking PEDs bouillabaisse.
inandof themself, on the single individual application, you were right, and you are right when you imply the way they are cocktailed, no one knows how they will work...

but in the long run, p'raps even bodybuilding is safer than a sedentary lifestyle with tobacco and alcohol and the legal medications...
Only if sedentary life leads to peer pressure to drink stupidly and smoke at all. Culturally smoking is frowned upon. Drinking to excess seems a young person's purusit -- typically.
 
Re: Re:

Archibald said:
veganrob said:
a friend of mine had a stroke when he was 45. absolutely no warning at all. He had been a Navy Seal, completed several IM's including Kona, ultra swims, climbed Mt Everest. He was very fit. Was not healthy.
Had my stroke last year and am a while off 45... this was how they 'found' my heart 'condition', as it was the hole that allowed the blood clot access to the brain...

veganrob said:
Hope you are feeling better and can continue to ride some. It is one thing as we get older to begrudgungly give in th the fact that we no longer are as fast as we used to be, but heart ailments are a different ballgame.
I only noticed problem last year, age 60, when bicuspid aorta was discovered. Born with it. Dr says to just keep up what I am doing though. I passed the stress test with flying colors. I still have some bad sensations when heart rate gets up higher. i'll need surgery eventually when the procedures are perfected.
I have lived vegan lifestyle for 38 years now and it works for me. I have lived longer than all of the males in my family going back 3 generations so I am doing something right. Bad genes will catch up with you. Do diet that works for you. I am not that arrogant to think vegan diet will work best for everyone.
Best wishes to you
Rob
This is interesting - have you heard of T Colin Campbell and Dr Caldwell (I think) Esseltyn? (might need to check that spelling)
Esseltyn's plant-based diet has had some brilliant success in reversing heart disease... Campbell has photos of 'repaired' ateries in patients of Esseltyns, in his book on diet/cancer studies
I am very familiar with Campbell's The China Study and Esseltyn's work also. Maybe I should have said I don't preach about vegan lifestyle but prefer to be an example.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re: Re:

Dear Wiggo said:
blackcat said:
StyrbjornSterki said:
And these days, any number of athletes obviously are a walking PEDs bouillabaisse.
inandof themself, on the single individual application, you were right, and you are right when you imply the way they are cocktailed, no one knows how they will work...

but in the long run, p'raps even bodybuilding is safer than a sedentary lifestyle with tobacco and alcohol and the legal medications...
Only if sedentary life leads to peer pressure to drink stupidly and smoke at all. Culturally smoking is frowned upon. Drinking to excess seems a young person's purusit -- typically.
but the marginalised and disaffected have overwhelming propensities in such pursuits...
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Another sad day for cycling, especially Belgian cycling. RIP Daan Myngheer.
Waaaaay too young to go.
I wish his family all the strength to cope with this unexpected loss.

I hope, but strongly doubt, we get to hear more about the possible causes of the heart attack.
I would also be interested to learn if he's been screened for possible heart defects, and if not, why not.
Does anybody know if screening for heart defects is an obligatory part of the medical exam before signing a (pro)contract?

Here's a good piece on the (need for) screening of young athletes:
We’ve known about sudden cardiac deaths among young athletes since I first trained in pediatric cardiology more than 30 years ago. We knew then about the rare heart defects that cause them. The shock and anguish haven’t changed much either. I’ll tell you what has changed. Parents. They are more educated than ever – and more insistent that their children be screened and protected.
https://www.brennerchildrens.org/Pediatric-Cardiology/Features/Screening-for-Heart-Defects-in-Young-Athletes.htm
In fairness, that piece also point out the fact that not all heart defects turn up in a screening.
Some numbers:
There is no central registry for these deaths. Studies suggest that in the U.S. fewer than 70 young athletes die of sudden cardiac death each year. So the risk is minuscule. Fewer than 1 out of 100,000 young athletes -- .6 to be more precise – will collapse and die playing sports.
It would be good to see some figures for cycling, see how they stack up against figures for other sports.

Another clinic thread from 2010:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=9388&hilit=heart
(with two or three interesting posts)

not necessarily related:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=20506&hilit=heart

I believe in the football thread there has also been some discussion.

It's sad to realize that these small tidbits of discussion in the Clinic about possible correlations between heart attacks and doping still amount to more than anything we've ever heard on the topic from most so-called sports scientists, physiologists, sports journos, and cycling officials.

Sure, there's lots of literature on heart attacks among (young) highly-trained athletes, but I don't know of too many attempts (if any) to investigate possible correlations with doping.
This anti-doping pamflet sums it up nicely:
What Are the Cardiovascular Risks of Performance-Enhancing Drugs?

Different types of PEDs will carry different risks. More research is needed, but use of anabolic steroids seems to increase the risk of potentially fatal conditions, including heart attack and heart rhythm problems. Various PEDs can also raise blood pressure, and anabolic steroids can raise "bad" cholesterol while lowering "good" cholesterol levels, contributing to long-term heart disease. Among those at greatest risk are young athletes who have hypertrophic cardiomyopathy – typically an inherited thickening of the heart muscle. Anabolic steroids, which have also been shown to thicken the main pumping chamber of the heart, could worsen hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. While more research is necessary, it appears that in some cases use of PEDs in people with congenital (present at birth) heart disease can further increase the risk of sudden cardiac death. An important takeaway is that not all young athletes who have a congenital heart defect know that they do. Congenital heart disease can be diagnosed at any point in the life span, including well into adulthood. While sudden cardiac death is extremely rare in young athletes, discouraging use of PEDs may be one way to keep its occurrence as low as possible.
http://www.scai.org/SecondsCount/Resources/Detail.aspx?cid=89672729-f55a-4d55-bcc3-dce0e04e5772#.Vvo2S0cjWM8
 
May 14, 2010
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Re: Re:

blackcat said:
Dear Wiggo said:
blackcat said:
StyrbjornSterki said:
And these days, any number of athletes obviously are a walking PEDs bouillabaisse.
inandof themself, on the single individual application, you were right, and you are right when you imply the way they are cocktailed, no one knows how they will work...

but in the long run, p'raps even bodybuilding is safer than a sedentary lifestyle with tobacco and alcohol and the legal medications...
Only if sedentary life leads to peer pressure to drink stupidly and smoke at all. Culturally smoking is frowned upon. Drinking to excess seems a young person's purusit -- typically.
but the marginalised and disaffected have overwhelming propensities in such pursuits...
You can say that again, brother. :D But you find the marginalized and disaffected sometimes in surprising places. In my youth, in what seems now like a previous incarnation, I was the room service manager in a swanky hotel. One day, Bjorn Borg flew in to town to play some kind of demo game. I think he was newly retired then at around the ripe old age of 27 or 28. Anyway, he checked in to the hotel and the first thing he did when he got to his room was call room service. His order: a fifth of Johnny Walker Black and a pack of Marlboro Reds. I remember being shocked. :D
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re: Re:

Maxiton said:
You can say that again, brother. :D But you find the marginalized and disaffected sometimes in surprising places. In my youth, in what seems now like a previous incarnation, I was the room service manager in a swanky hotel. One day, Bjorn Borg flew in to town to play some kind of demo game. I think he was newly retired then at around the ripe old age of 27 or 28. Anyway, he checked in to the hotel and the first thing he did when he got to his room was call room service. His order: a fifth of Johnny Walker Black and a pack of Marlboro Reds. I remember being shocked. :D
what about skirt?

no skirt?

I always thought he was a gauloises bleu post coitus man myself. or Peter Stuyvesant red. and Moet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIp1FE41tpE
 
Oct 16, 2010
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this post should be in here:

Maxiton said:
The Hitch said:
Maxiton said:
I was reading recently about the introduction of EPO in the peloton. During its first years of use, before they figured it out, young riders were dropping like flies. In the Netherlands alone, according to the article, 20 riders died from EPO experimentation in the first year. The following year, 21 riders died. The next year, 25. And the next year, 21. And the next, 15. For five or six years, in a single, small country cycling became a lethal sport.
These figures have been challenged. Merckx index made a thread about it about two years ago.
Yes, I'm aware of that. Every single mention of doping in the sport has been challenged, or disputed. What remains after the challenge is the deaths, which can't be disputed.

And who is keeping track of cardiac-related deaths in cycling? Probably no one. Here is a list, very likely incomplete, from a thirteen month period in 2003-2004.


Since January 2003 [thirteen months; the list was compiled in February, 2004], the following eight riders have died from heart attacks:

Denis Zanette (Italy)

Died January 11 2003, aged 32

Zanette collapsed after visiting the dentist. Instantly linked to the use of the blood-booster EPO, which led to an outcry in Italy and demands for stricter drug controls.

Marco Ceriani (Italy)

Died May 5, aged 16

An elite amateur, Ceriani experienced a heart attack during a race, was admitted to hospital in a coma, and failed to recover consciousness.

Fabrice Salanson (France)

Died June 3, aged 23

Died of a heart attack in his sleep. Was found by his room mate in their team hotel. Had been about to compete in the Tour of Germany.

Marco Rusconi (Italy)

Died November 14, aged 24

Rusconi was leaving the party of a friend last November when he collapsed and died in a shopping centre car park.

Jose Maria Jimenez (Spain)

Died December 6, aged 32

Died from a heart attack in a psychiatric hospital in Madrid. Had retired two years previously but consistently claimed a comeback was imminent.

Michel Zanoli (Netherlands)

Died December 29, aged 35

Zanoli, who retired in 1997, was 35 when he suffered a fatal heart attack.

Johan Sermon (Belgium)

Died February 15 2004, aged 21

Suffered an apparent heart failure in his sleep. Had reportedly gone to bed early to prepare for an eight-hour training ride.

Marco Pantani (Italy)

Died February 15 2004, aged 34
 
May 14, 2010
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Re: Re:

blackcat said:
Maxiton said:
You can say that again, brother. But you find the marginalized and disaffected sometimes in surprising places. In my youth, in what seems now like a previous incarnation, I was the room service manager in a swanky hotel. One day, Bjorn Borg flew in to town to play some kind of demo game. I think he was newly retired then at around the ripe old age of 27 or 28. Anyway, he checked in to the hotel and the first thing he did when he got to his room was call room service. His order: a fifth of Johnny Walker Black and a pack of Marlboro Reds. I remember being shocked.
what about skirt?

no skirt?
Never heard anything about what he was wearing. :D

I always thought he was a gauloises bleu post coitus man myself. or Peter Stuyvesant red. and Moet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIp1FE41tpE
The Concorde was an especially nice touch. Sun, sun, sun, sun, fun, fun, fun, fun. Down Under in the Red Sea. :cool: :eek:
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Re: Heart Aliments- Result of Genetics, Doping or over exerc

Heart Aliments- Result of Genetics, Doping or over exercise?

Yes.
 
Re: Re:

blackcat said:
Maxiton said:
You can say that again, brother. :D But you find the marginalized and disaffected sometimes in surprising places. In my youth, in what seems now like a previous incarnation, I was the room service manager in a swanky hotel. One day, Bjorn Borg flew in to town to play some kind of demo game. I think he was newly retired then at around the ripe old age of 27 or 28. Anyway, he checked in to the hotel and the first thing he did when he got to his room was call room service. His order: a fifth of Johnny Walker Black and a pack of Marlboro Reds. I remember being shocked. :D
what about skirt?

no skirt?

I always thought he was a gauloises bleu post coitus man myself. or Peter Stuyvesant red. and Moet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIp1FE41tpE
Isn't the ask here for "another pillow"?
 
Re:

sniper said:
I hope, but strongly doubt, we get to hear more about the possible causes of the heart attack.
I would also be interested to learn if he's been screened for possible heart defects, and if not, why not.
Does anybody know if screening for heart defects is an obligatory part of the medical exam before signing a (pro)contract?
At least in France I think yearly health screenings are obligatory. But did Myngheer had some heart problems already couple years ago that where screened and given green light?
 
Feb 25, 2011
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Re: Re:

memyselfandI said:
sniper said:
I hope, but strongly doubt, we get to hear more about the possible causes of the heart attack.
I would also be interested to learn if he's been screened for possible heart defects, and if not, why not.
Does anybody know if screening for heart defects is an obligatory part of the medical exam before signing a (pro)contract?
At least in France I think yearly health screenings are obligatory. But did Myngheer had some heart problems already couple years ago that where screened and given green light?
Yes: http://cyclingtips.com/2016/03/two-days-after-his-death-former-coaches-speak-about-past-health-issues-of-daan-myngheer/
 
so the kid basically decided to play the russian rullet...he had a ticking time bomb on his chest and still insisted in competing.

how the hell does a team even consider hire someone that had so much health issues!? this is completely reckless!
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re:

carolina said:
so the kid basically decided to play the russian rullet...he had a ticking time bomb on his chest and still insisted in competing.

how the hell does a team even consider hire someone that had so much health issues!? this is completely reckless!
Consider for a sec that he didn't have any prior heart issues and his heart failure was all down to doping. What would you say if you were Dubois?

Unless we see some sort of a record of his heart issues from prior to his death, there's no reason to take Dubois' statements at face value.
 

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