HemAssist . What do forumites know?

[L'arriviste]

Anybody point out that Hemassist was on Manzano's list of substances?

Dave.

As far as I know, Hemassist wasn't on Manzano's list.

However, we do have a "Hemoce" and, as has been mentioned above, "Hemopure".

 

[Elagabalus]

There's a slight snag in all this. The '99 samples were positive for EPO. So Armstrong was taking EPO AND Hemassist? (in addition to everything else!)

 

[Roland Rat]

It wasn't used to treat cancer patients. It was used on people who had suffered massive blood loss (e.g victims of shootings, stabbings, industrial accidents etc).

Maybe. I was thinking that it could have been used alongside chemo. Anyway, Race Radio has (yet again) seemingly provided the answer.

 

[bianchigirl]

The 99 +ves were from urine samples - HBOCs don't show up in urine, only in blood - but it really begs the question why, if they're so useless, a test was developed for use at the Athens Olympics and why a test was developed at all?

The test sites were in Britain, France & Belgium - Baxter took advantage of new legislation to test w/out consent in emergency situations and, interestingly, that's what led to the termination of the trial.

Baxter are also engaged in developing gene therapy to treat cancer...

Sorry, haven't read the thread so please ignore if this is old news (knowing the level of knowledge here, it will be)

 

[MR_Sarcastic]

Nice try

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/experts-call-armstrong-hemassist-connection-unlikely

Experts call Armstrong-HemAssist connection unlikely
Speaking to the Associated Press today, Przybelski clarified that he didn't believe athletes ever used HemAssist.

"I could not imagine a cyclist using HemAssist or any HBOC day after day ... I would imagine that such a product would be used selectively for a most difficult mountain stage," he told AP. "But of course," he added, "I don't believe these products were ever used."

 

[veganrob]

There's a slight snag in all this. The '99 samples were positive for EPO. So Armstrong was taking EPO AND Hemassist? (in addition to everything else!)

May not be a snag at all. Nowadays you will find many drugs being prescribed for conditions quite different than their original intended purpose. Or, drugs having a far better effect when used with another drug. The synergistic effect can really enhance or change the results.
Could HemAssist be used alongside EPO to create a super drug? Isn't it correct there was no test in 1999 for EPO and probably did not test for HBOC's.

 

[bianchigirl]

In 1999 Neuchatel facility changed its function to produce a human hemoglobin product using genetically modified human hemoglobin molecules - this was expected to be in production in 2-3 years.

The distribution centres for Hemassist was in Belgium

 

[altark123]

Does the front page story change your minds?

With experts coming out and saying it would provide any advantage or that they flat don't believe it was used?

 

[MR_Sarcastic]

Since Cyclingnews.com had the story on Hemassist today, this thread has quieted down.........I'm suprised that someone hasn't posted that Armstrong "bought off" cyclingnews.

 

[bianchigirl]

An article repeating information from elsewhere that rubbishes the efficacity of Hemassist is not quite the same as an article that says 'Lance Armstrong could not have got his hands on Hemassist under any circumstance'

FDA won't give a sh*t whether Hemassist was useless but they will care how he got his hands on it - until I see that information categorically rubbished then I won't be shutting up

 

[MR_Sarcastic]

Nobody is asking you that.
All I'm asking, is that people shouldn't be so quick to jump on the SI Hemassist bandwagon.

 

[D-Queued]

As far as I know, Hemassist wasn't on Manzano's list.

However, we do have a "Hemoce" and, as has been mentioned above, "Hemopure".

Actually, as disclosed in this CyclingNews 2004 article, we have all three:

Hemoce, Hemapure and HemAssist - as well as Oxyglobin:

Manzano's list
A list of the products that Manzano has referred to in his interviews.

Actovegin (extract of calves blood which supposedly improves oxygen carrying capacity)
Albumina H. (protein in blood plasma)
Androgel (testosterone)
Aranesp (Darbepoetin alfa = super EPO)
Celestote (corticosteroid)
Eprex (EPO)
Genotorm (growth hormone)
Hemoce (plasma)
Deca durabolin (anabolic steroid)
Humatrope (growth hormone)
IgF1 (insulin growth factor 1)
Neofertinon (hormone to stimulate ovulation and estrogen production)
Neorecormon (hormone that regulates red blood cell production)
Norditropin (growth hormone)
Nuvacten (corticosteroid)
Trigon (asthma drug)
Urbason (corticosteroid)
Ventolin (bronchial dilator)
Oxandrolona (anabolic agent)
Vitamin B12 (essential B vitamin)
Triamcinolona (corticosteroid)
Testoviron (testosterone)
Aspirina (analgesic, anti-inflammatory)
Oxyglobin (artificial haemoglobin intended for anaemic dogs)
Hemopure (artificial haemoglobin)
Ferlixit (iron)
Caffeine (stimulant)
Hemassist (artificial haemoglobin)
Prozac (antidepressant)

Dave.

 

[NashbarShorts]

With experts coming out and saying it would provide any advantage or that they flat don't believe it was used?

The "experts" have simply said it was deemed ineffective for its INTENDED USE (as a blood substitue for trauma victims who are about to bleed out).

There is/was no study done to test its efficacy as a blood-booster for elite endurance athletes! If you can find any such study or evidence thereof, please please post for all of us to read.

As for the "expert" saying, he doesn't believed it was ever used for doping -- he is just covering his *** legally. He was a labcoat research employee of the company developing the product. If he come out and says, "yeah I know for a fact that procyclists got their hands on it and were using it", don't you think he'd soon be getting some phonecalls from Baxter's legal counsel??

Again, these denials are not denials at all. All you have to do is read b/w the lines. It doesn't take a lot of skill.

 

[coffeebean2]

The "experts" have simply said it was deemed ineffective for its INTENDED USE (as a blood substitue for trauma victims who are about to bleed out).

There is/was no study done to test its efficacy as a blood-booster for elite endurance athletes! If you can find any such study or evidence thereof, please please post for all of us to read.

As for the "expert" saying, he doesn't believed it was ever used for doping -- he is just covering his *** legally. He was a labcoat research employee of the company developing the product. If he come out and says, "yeah I know for a fact that procyclists got their hands on it and were using it", don't you think he'd soon be getting some phonecalls from Baxter's legal counsel??

Again, these denials are not denials at all. All you have to do is read b/w the lines. It doesn't take a lot of skill.

This article seems to refute that:

http://www.seattlepi.com/othersports/2080ap_cyc_john_leicester_200111.html

 

[MR_Sarcastic]

"All you have to do is read b/w the lines. It doesn't take a lot of skill."

When you read between the lines, you're just making things up.
One person can read it and say that it means that he's clear, while another person can read it and say that this Proves that maybe, he possibly might have used it.

 

[D-Queued]

"All you have to do is read b/w the lines. It doesn't take a lot of skill."

When you read between the lines, you're just making things up.
One person can read it and say that it means that he's clear, while another person can read it and say that this Proves that maybe, he possibly might have used it.

Exactly.

Read between the lines:

"... I would imagine that such a product would be used selectively for a most difficult mountain stage," Przybelski wrote in a follow-up e-mail to the AP

Like the kind of mountain stage where you stand out of the saddle?

And we have the confirmation of cycling use from Manzano!

Dave.

 

[Doctor Blood]

An article repeating information from elsewhere that rubbishes the efficacity of Hemassist is not quite the same as an article that says 'Lance Armstrong could not have got his hands on Hemassist under any circumstance'

FDA won't give a sh*t whether Hemassist was useless but they will care how he got his hands on it - until I see that information categorically rubbished then I won't be shutting up

The "experts" have simply said it was deemed ineffective for its INTENDED USE (as a blood substitue for trauma victims who are about to bleed out).

There is/was no study done to test its efficacy as a blood-booster for elite endurance athletes! If you can find any such study or evidence thereof, please please post for all of us to read.

As for the "expert" saying, he doesn't believed it was ever used for doping -- he is just covering his *** legally. He was a labcoat research employee of the company developing the product. If he come out and says, "yeah I know for a fact that procyclists got their hands on it and were using it", don't you think he'd soon be getting some phonecalls from Baxter's legal counsel??

Again, these denials are not denials at all. All you have to do is read b/w the lines. It doesn't take a lot of skill.

I think these two qoutes are fairly on target.
If the SI story is true, the FDA will be very interested in how Armstrong obtained the compound. Currently, you have to tighly account for all investigational drugs. While the regulations have tightened lately and enforced more firmly than before, I suspect that getting ahold of this outside of a trial was a big no no then and also potetnialy puts the company at risk of investigation.

With regards to the efficacy in sports, I am skeptical given the potential side effect profile. However, I don't discount the possibility of a small benefit and have not seen the phase I data.

 

[Darryl Webster]

I think these two qoutes are fairly on target.
If the SI story is true, the FDA will be very interested in how Armstrong obtained the compound. Currently, you have to tighly account for all investigational drugs. While the regulations have tightened lately and enforced more firmly than before, I suspect that getting ahold of this outside of a trial was a big no no then and also potetnialy puts the company at risk of investigation.

With regards to the efficacy in sports, I am skeptical given the potential side effect profile. However, I don't discount the possibility of a small benefit and have not seen the phase I data.

If the brand name HemAssist was given to SI by the FDA then my bet is they have all the links in place and are now seeing how the " in the dark" players react.
I find it almost impossible to believe that a manufactuer like Baxtor and there product would be named by SI without great confidence by the SI legal dept.
As im reading it HemAssist fits the profile exactly of the possible substance no one else had access to.
If naming Baxtor and HemAssist was given the nod then gawd only knows what was held back!

 

[BotanyBay]

If they've got good intel (and it sounds like they do), it won't be hard to discover the path of this drug's distribution to Armstrong.

Phone records, email records, inventory sheets, personal interviews, DEAL MAKING with prosecutors, corroborating accounts from the outside, etc.

Armstrong will be in trouble even if he chickened-out and tossed the entire supply in Lake Austin.

So Lance, you've got the case in your hands. Do you wanna hang on to it, or take the banker's offer?

My advice... Make a deal:

 

[Lurker]

Been Lurking here for a while. This has been one of the best places to learn about the seedy side of cycling. Thanks for all the info that has been shared.

I’m posting because I found an interesting read on HemAssist in the medical literature. It’s a literature review of three types of artificial blood. It explains the history of HemAssist and why it was pulled from the trials (about 4-5x as many trauma patients died as the control group that was given saline).

“A review of blood substitutes: examining the history, clinical trial results, and ethics of hemoglobin-based oxygen carriers” by Jiin-Yu Chen; Michelle Scerbo; George Kramer

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1807-59322009000800016&script=sci_arttext

A couple of important points to note that relate to doping:
1. “Baxter evaluated recombinant hemoglobin formulations for a several more years and eventually terminated its HBOC program.” So the phase III testing program was terminated in 1998, but Baxter would have had this stuff around for several more years. This puts the lie to Fabiani’s claim that after 1998 it was unavailable because the studies had been cancelled.

2. “It also exhibits a long shelf life when stored in a freezer.” So, it could have been around for many years after the clinical trials ended.

3. “The cause for the increased mortality could not be established from that data. However, researchers speculated that it was a result of the known vasopressor effects of hemoglobin solutions.” Meaning that it caused the constriction of blood vessels. I’m curious how much constriction would occur if someone took ¼ or ½ a unit? Would it matter for a cyclist just looking to get an extra 2-3%?

Here are my thoughts. I am not convinced by a couple of people speculating and by a vo2 max study of a different artificial blood, that this stuff would not benefit a cyclist. Interestingly, the study of Hemopure caused a decrease in heart rate of 10 bpm. So I’m assuming that while VO2 Max was not improved the same way the it would have with an infusion of red blood cells, it did improve some aspect of cycling performance. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17024639 I need to see something more substantive that this drug would not improve O2 transfer to the muscles.

I’m thinking that it’s possible that someone could use EPO, and this stuff in conjunction. Use the EPO to get hematocrit up to the low 50s. Then use a small dose of the HemAssist because it does not thicken the blood, but still provides oxygen carrying capacity. It’s a wild guess, but what do you think?

 

[Oldman]

An article repeating information from elsewhere that rubbishes the efficacity of Hemassist is not quite the same as an article that says 'Lance Armstrong could not have got his hands on Hemassist under any circumstance'

FDA won't give a sh*t whether Hemassist was useless but they will care how he got his hands on it - until I see that information categorically rubbished then I won't be shutting up

What I keep saying. If you were a Pharm company you'd definitely want to know of any unauthorized distribution and you'd want that use prosecuted; particularly if it had some effacacy and someone was producing a knockoff product. It's about money, folks. Those companies want their profits back and don't want to endure the risk of a tainted version of their product in the marketplace.
Fabiani and Co can't fight that power.

 

[lean mean &green]

as numerous others have pointed out, intent and possession are all that is important. the efficacy of HemAssist is irrelevant. also, SI has opened a window into armstrong's mindset and sources they can confirm pointed to this particular drug. only a fool would assume that someone looking for an edge would stop looking after finding little success with HemAssist. in that frame of mind, an overcompetitive risk-taker would keep searching and there's no saying he didn't strike gold somewhere else. we don't know everything and neither does SI. there are likely to be some descrepancies as we more closely analyze the article but that hardly means the entire article is without merit. they've merely contributed a few more pieces to the puzzle in a way that is more visible than ever before, ie to readers of a magazine which is VERY mainstream.

 

[MacRoadie]

Been Lurking here for a while. This has been one of the best places to learn about the seedy side of cycling. Thanks for all the info that has been shared.

I’m posting because I found an interesting read on HemAssist in the medical literature. It’s a literature review of three types of artificial blood. It explains the history of HemAssist and why it was pulled from the trials (about 4-5x as many trauma patients died as the control group that was given saline).

“A review of blood substitutes: examining the history, clinical trial results, and ethics of hemoglobin-based oxygen carriers” by Jiin-Yu Chen; Michelle Scerbo; George Kramer

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1807-59322009000800016&script=sci_arttext

A couple of important points to note that relate to doping:
1. “Baxter evaluated recombinant hemoglobin formulations for a several more years and eventually terminated its HBOC program.” So the phase III testing program was terminated in 1998, but Baxter would have had this stuff around for several more years. This puts the lie to Fabiani’s claim that after 1998 it was unavailable because the studies had been cancelled.

2. “It also exhibits a long shelf life when stored in a freezer.” So, it could have been around for many years after the clinical trials ended.

3. “The cause for the increased mortality could not be established from that data. However, researchers speculated that it was a result of the known vasopressor effects of hemoglobin solutions.” Meaning that it caused the constriction of blood vessels. I’m curious how much constriction would occur if someone took ¼ or ½ a unit? Would it matter for a cyclist just looking to get an extra 2-3%?

Here are my thoughts. I am not convinced by a couple of people speculating and by a vo2 max study of a different artificial blood, that this stuff would not benefit a cyclist. Interestingly, the study of Hemopure caused a decrease in heart rate of 10 bpm. So I’m assuming that while VO2 Max was not improved the same way the it would have with an infusion of red blood cells, it did improve some aspect of cycling performance. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17024639 I need to see something more substantive that this drug would not improve O2 transfer to the muscles.

I’m thinking that it’s possible that someone could use EPO, and this stuff in conjunction. Use the EPO to get hematocrit up to the low 50s. Then use a small dose of the HemAssist because it does not thicken the blood, but still provides oxygen carrying capacity. It’s a wild guess, but what do you think?

Excellent first post! Welcome to the forum (or are you simply returning after an absence?)

+1

 

[lean mean &green]

I’m thinking that it’s possible that someone could use EPO, and this stuff in conjunction. Use the EPO to get hematocrit up to the low 50s. Then use a small dose of the HemAssist because it does not thicken the blood, but still provides oxygen carrying capacity. It’s a wild guess, but what do you think?

the actions of EPO and HBOC's/PFC's in the body are completely different. i wouldn't expect synergistic effects but i wouldn't expect antagonistic effects either - additive maybe? theoretically you might be able to use artificial blood products in small amounts but there are practical concerns like administration. HemAssist still required refrigeration and is not a simple injection or an oral. furthermore, the benefits would be very temporary, they'd only last a day or two. If you were willing to go to all that trouble you might as well just do autologous transfusions.

HemAssist being something of a dead end isn't totally unsatisfying tho, i can imagine a would-be doper going to all this trouble for a product that doesn't work very well would be mighty frustrated - kinda funny if you picture it. just my 2 cents.

 

[D-Queued]

...

I’m posting because I found an interesting read on HemAssist in the medical literature. It’s a literature review of three types of artificial blood. It explains the history of HemAssist and why it was pulled from the trials (about 4-5x as many trauma patients died as the control group that was given saline).

“A review of blood substitutes: examining the history, clinical trial results, and ethics of hemoglobin-based oxygen carriers” by Jiin-Yu Chen; Michelle Scerbo; George Kramer

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1807-59322009000800016&script=sci_arttext

...
Here are my thoughts. I am not convinced by a couple of people speculating and by a vo2 max study of a different artificial blood, that this stuff would not benefit a cyclist. Interestingly, the study of Hemopure caused a decrease in heart rate of 10 bpm. So I’m assuming that while VO2 Max was not improved the same way the it would have with an infusion of red blood cells, it did improve some aspect of cycling performance. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17024639 I need to see something more substantive that this drug would not improve O2 transfer to the muscles.

I’m thinking that it’s possible that someone could use EPO, and this stuff in conjunction. Use the EPO to get hematocrit up to the low 50s. Then use a small dose of the HemAssist because it does not thicken the blood, but still provides oxygen carrying capacity. It’s a wild guess, but what do you think?

Manzano (noted above) claims to have used HemAssist. That is pretty good independent validation of its use in cycling, and it came six years ago. For those looking to claim he is another bitter, Lance-hating liar, please reconcile the completely independent claim.

The drop in HR that you noted for Hemopure, was also observed in the HemAssist trials (and in the first study you cited):

As for the storage requirements, doesn't this bring to mind Lance instructions to Landis to make sure the freezer kept running?

Dave.