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He's coming home!!!! Alejandro Valverde comeback thread.

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What will Valverde's impact be the cycling world in 2012

  • Nuclear Holocoust

    Votes: 8 100.0%

  • Total voters
    8
Mar 13, 2015
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
It's not a real surprise. I've seen Valverde collapse on the Keutenberg so many times now. It's hardly a surprise anymore. The AGR climbs just don't suit him very well.
When? Keutenberg should suit him down to the ground, much better then it suits Kwiat for example...
 
Mar 13, 2015
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tobydawq said:
Mr.White said:
WheelofGear said:
I actually think he thought they would attack on Cauberg.

Gilbert and co. are just smarter in these races.
It's not about the brains, he just didn't had the legs. He would go after Kwiat, or before him, on Keutenberg if he had them
It is indeed about the brains. Kwiatkowski could only bridge because he had absolutely super legs. If Valverde had just gone with the Gilbert group when it attacked, he would have had a good chance of winning or podiuming. He looked like he considered it, but he was again too hesitant in a big race and didn't go.

Maybe he had decided that he would follow van Avermaet, but he was poorly positioned, which explains why he didn't join the Gilbert attack. That was not true for Valverde but he probably thought it would be fine just to put Rojas up there so he could help him later.

Then of course it turned out that Rojas couldn't really do anything but sitting on wheels and was to no help at all (otherwise, he could have dropped down to the GvA-Valverde group when it was at ten seconds and sacrificed himself - but in that case that would have been stupid, because he then would have had a chance of winning - so to sum up, Rojas' presence in the front group was never going to help Valverde in any case).

But I just don't know why he didn't go with Gilbert and co. There were so many fast guys left behind, so his presence would not have dampened the desire to work hard. It was quite sad to see him squander that very good opportunity.
Don't agree.
If Kwiatkowski bridged on 22% Keutenberg, and Valverde couldn't do that, to me it's a clear sign he didn't had great legs. He is usually much better on these gradients then Kwiat.
It would been better of course if he had went with Gilbert, but that's not the place when he lost this race. He lost it on Keutenberg, when Kwiat went and he couldn't follow. Without Kwiatkowski that front group wouldn't made it to the finish, I think. We'd have 3 of the 4 strongest guys in the group behind, they would pulled that group back. When Kwiat went, that was the key point of the race, and that's where race was won/lost. Gilbert wouldn't won without Kwiatkowski, who by the way looked strongest to me, but just messed up his sprint.

So, to conclude, it would be much better if he'd went with Gilbert, but I think he lost this race because he didn't had legs when it mattered the most, on Keutenberg!
 
Mar 13, 2015
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Red Rick said:
Mr.White said:
Dekker_Tifosi said:
It's not a real surprise. I've seen Valverde collapse on the Keutenberg so many times now. It's hardly a surprise anymore. The AGR climbs just don't suit him very well.
When? Keutenberg should suit him down to the ground, much better then it suits Kwiat for example...
How so?
When did you saw Kwiatkowski dropping Valverde on such gradients before yesterday? Me, never.
And how many times did you saw Valverde dropping Kwiat on such gardients? I saw it many times.
 
Mar 13, 2015
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Red Rick said:
It's not about the percentage alone, it's also about the duration of said percentage. On the Keutenberg it's very, very short.
Well Mur de Huy is not much longer, but nevertheless I never saw Kwiat drops him on double digits, no matter how long
 
Re: Re:

Mr.White said:
tobydawq said:
Mr.White said:
WheelofGear said:
I actually think he thought they would attack on Cauberg.

Gilbert and co. are just smarter in these races.
It's not about the brains, he just didn't had the legs. He would go after Kwiat, or before him, on Keutenberg if he had them
It is indeed about the brains. Kwiatkowski could only bridge because he had absolutely super legs. If Valverde had just gone with the Gilbert group when it attacked, he would have had a good chance of winning or podiuming. He looked like he considered it, but he was again too hesitant in a big race and didn't go.

Maybe he had decided that he would follow van Avermaet, but he was poorly positioned, which explains why he didn't join the Gilbert attack. That was not true for Valverde but he probably thought it would be fine just to put Rojas up there so he could help him later.

Then of course it turned out that Rojas couldn't really do anything but sitting on wheels and was to no help at all (otherwise, he could have dropped down to the GvA-Valverde group when it was at ten seconds and sacrificed himself - but in that case that would have been stupid, because he then would have had a chance of winning - so to sum up, Rojas' presence in the front group was never going to help Valverde in any case).

But I just don't know why he didn't go with Gilbert and co. There were so many fast guys left behind, so his presence would not have dampened the desire to work hard. It was quite sad to see him squander that very good opportunity.
Don't agree.
If Kwiatkowski bridged on 22% Keutenberg, and Valverde couldn't do that, to me it's a clear sign he didn't had great legs. He is usually much better on these gradients then Kwiat.
It would been better of course if he had went with Gilbert, but that's not the place when he lost this race. He lost it on Keutenberg, when Kwiat went and he couldn't follow. Without Kwiatkowski that front group wouldn't made it to the finish, I think. We'd have 3 of the 4 strongest guys in the group behind, they would pulled that group back. When Kwiat went, that was the key point of the race, and that's where race was won/lost. Gilbert wouldn't won without Kwiatkowski, who by the way looked strongest to me, but just messed up his sprint.

So, to conclude, it would be much better if he'd went with Gilbert, but I think he lost this race because he didn't had legs when it mattered the most, on Keutenberg!

When Kwiat bridged, GVA/Bala are only 8 seconds behind. Henao pushed the paced and GVA were on able to hold the chase. It was a tactical error on Bala's part not to help GVA chase on that crucial moment.
 
Mar 13, 2015
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Look again, Bala was at the front of the chasing group at that point. He started working when Keutenberg eased up a little, Kwiat wasn't at the front at that point
 
Re: Re:

Mr.White said:
Dekker_Tifosi said:
It's not a real surprise. I've seen Valverde collapse on the Keutenberg so many times now. It's hardly a surprise anymore. The AGR climbs just don't suit him very well.
When? Keutenberg should suit him down to the ground, much better then it suits Kwiat for example...
No it doesn't. Keutenberg is too short, and the very narrow road and twists and turns before him don't suit him.
In all editions Valverde nearly never did well on the Keuteberg. Always fails to follow the best
 
Re:

Mr.White said:
Look again, Bala was at the front of the chasing group at that point. He started working when Keutenberg eased up a little, Kwiat wasn't at the front at that point
His turns at the front of the chase always looked half spirited to me. A chasing group including a tired GVA, a half commited Valverde and Rui Costa will never go anywhere.
 
It is after his pull that they are closest to the next group. Okay, he is probably about equal with Greg, but unlike him, he is holding way more back.

If Valverde ignored the passengers, I think he could have bridged the gap together with Greg, if they both would go deep for that.
 
Re:

Netserk said:
It is after his pull that they are closest to the next group. Okay, he is probably about equal with Greg, but unlike him, he is holding way more back.

If Valverde ignored the passengers, I think he could have bridged the gap together with Greg, if they both would go deep for that.
Him not going with Kwiatek is already a sign of 'weakness'. I think he just doesn't have it anymore and THEN he starts holding back because Rojas in front.

If he did have something in the legs, he would have tried to do one of his classic sprints after Greg finishes his pull (the screenshot you posted), but he doesn't. Clear sign to me he's at the limit...
 
I guess we'll see on Wednesday whether he has morphed more into a GC rider than one day specialist this year. It could just be the lack of one day racing made him a little lacking in sharpness at Amstel (as has often been the case for him, imo); especially with no Strade Bianche, no MSR this year, so he hasn't done any top level one day race since Lombardia. Bound to be a bit rusty compared with the guys who have just spent the last month riding numerous tough classics.

Or perhaps he sees this year as his last genuine chance at another GT victory and is gearing up more for that than the Ardennes. Hence doubling up on Catalunya and PV. Probably will be the last time he will be the sole, fully supported leader at the Vuelta.
 
Mar 13, 2015
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Netserk said:
It is after his pull that they are closest to the next group. Okay, he is probably about equal with Greg, but unlike him, he is holding way more back.

If Valverde ignored the passengers, I think he could have bridged the gap together with Greg, if they both would go deep for that.
They were close because Greg pulled hard on Keutenberg, then Valverde pulled hard when it eased up a little, but that was it. Kwiatkowski proved they weren't strong enough, and the moment Kwiat bridge, Henao took a hard and long pull and advantage increased. Valverde asked for help from Felline and Wellens not because he was holding back, but because he saw he and Greg were on the limit. Which is the thing I'm arguing about, he didn't made tactical error (ok, he did when didn't follow Gilbert, but so others did, and it was bridgeable for the strongest), but simply wasn't good enough.
 
Flamin said:
Netserk said:
It is after his pull that they are closest to the next group. Okay, he is probably about equal with Greg, but unlike him, he is holding way more back.

If Valverde ignored the passengers, I think he could have bridged the gap together with Greg, if they both would go deep for that.
Him not going with Kwiatek is already a sign of 'weakness'. I think he just doesn't have it anymore and THEN he starts holding back because Rojas in front.

If he did have something in the legs, he would have tried to do one of his classic sprints after Greg finishes his pull (the screenshot you posted), but he doesn't. Clear sign to me he's at the limit...
I don't think his cerebral weakness should be ignored ( ;) ) when analyzing why he didn't even try to follow Kwiatkowski, but stayed glued to the wheel of Greg.

Granted, he isn't a monster in Amstel, but I still reckon that he prefers to stay in his shell and focus on the two upcoming races.

No matter how empty he was, I think Movi's chances would have been better if the two groups merged, so it makes no sense to me (when only thinking of Amstel, and not on conserving something for the next races) not to commit 100% to the chase. Maybe, like Gerro, he fears for his reputation and that others would start to expect him to pull in a chase :p
 
Re:

Netserk said:
Flamin said:
Netserk said:
It is after his pull that they are closest to the next group. Okay, he is probably about equal with Greg, but unlike him, he is holding way more back.

If Valverde ignored the passengers, I think he could have bridged the gap together with Greg, if they both would go deep for that.
Him not going with Kwiatek is already a sign of 'weakness'. I think he just doesn't have it anymore and THEN he starts holding back because Rojas in front.

If he did have something in the legs, he would have tried to do one of his classic sprints after Greg finishes his pull (the screenshot you posted), but he doesn't. Clear sign to me he's at the limit...
I don't think his cerebral weakness should be ignored ( ;) ) when analyzing why he didn't even try to follow Kwiatkowski, but stayed glued to the wheel of Greg.

Granted, he isn't a monster in Amstel, but I still reckon that he prefers to stay in his shell and focus on the two upcoming races.

No matter how empty he was, I think Movi's chances would have been better if the two groups merged, so it makes no sense to me (when only thinking of Amstel, and not on conserving something for the next races) not to commit 100% to the chase. Maybe, like Gerro, he fears for his reputation and that others would start to expect him to pull in a chase :p
It makes sense when you're cooked and see the guys in front of you ride away.. I think that's the point where he starts holding back and starts thinking about the next races. Not sooner than that. The win was gone, so I don't blame him.
 
Libertine hates to love Valverde, Netserk loves to hate him.

Reading through those comments after having just watched the race, you are really being unfair to him here, Netserk. Valverde did everything he could to close the gap along with GVA, but they simply couldn't. No shame in that. I saw no tactics, Valverde saving himself and being afraid etc. etc. as he has been criticised for in big moments, I simply saw a group up front who had more horsepower.

On Valverde, I think he looked quite good, Kwito just went mental up the Keutenberg. Still, after watching this race, Valverde must be a bit more scared of Henao than he otherwise would have been for Fléche. And who knows about Kwitokowski.
 
Re:

Valv.Piti said:
Libertine hates to love Valverde, Netserk loves to hate him.

Reading through those comments after having just watched the race, you are really being unfair to him here, Netserk. Valverde did everything he could to close the gap along with GVA, but they simply couldn't. No shame in that. I saw no tactics, Valverde saving himself and being afraid etc. etc. as he has been criticised for in big moments, I simply saw a group up front who had more horsepower.

On Valverde, I think he looked quite good, Kwito just went mental up the Keutenberg. Still, after watching this race, Valverde must be a bit more scared of Henao than he otherwise would have been for Fléche. And who knows about Kwitokowski.
So at what point in the video, after the screen shot, does Valverde again take a proper turn, like the one he took just before the screen shot?
 
Re: Re:

Netserk said:
Valv.Piti said:
Libertine hates to love Valverde, Netserk loves to hate him.

Reading through those comments after having just watched the race, you are really being unfair to him here, Netserk. Valverde did everything he could to close the gap along with GVA, but they simply couldn't. No shame in that. I saw no tactics, Valverde saving himself and being afraid etc. etc. as he has been criticised for in big moments, I simply saw a group up front who had more horsepower.

On Valverde, I think he looked quite good, Kwito just went mental up the Keutenberg. Still, after watching this race, Valverde must be a bit more scared of Henao than he otherwise would have been for Fléche. And who knows about Kwitokowski.
So at what point in the video, after the screen shot, does Valverde again take a proper turn, like the one he took just before the screen shot?
I don't know and I really don't care. You are really just nitpicking to make it look like Valverde lost another race due to him playing poker or what have you, not wanting to sacrifice himself. And that wasn't what I saw, at all, and I really do think you are way off here. I'd like to agree with you as I don't care to criticise Valverde when he is racing like a coward, but he really didn't here.
 
You are reading things into it that isn't there. I obviously don't think he lost a race he should have won (as I doubt he would have won if they bridged), I just expanded on the post above my own with an image and a video of what happened.

You are acting like the four post before mine weren't there, and that I just came to the thread to post some hysterical bashing. Other than the tongue-in-cheek paragraphs with smileys, I think it's fairly sober what I have written.
 
I should've written lost another chance of winning instead, bad choice of wording there. There were a couple of much stronger guys obviously, he most likely wouldn't have won anyways (in the event of you being right and he actually could have bridged).

I just don't think its fair to him to suggest he 'preferred to stay in his shell' instead of actually trying to win a race he's never won based on what images we saw. That has been true for other races, but not this one. That why I got annoyed. I saw a motivated Valverde who chased as much (or more) than GVA.
 
Valverde was climbing better than Henao and Izaguirre 10 days ago in the Basque Country. It's hard to believe that not following them and Kwiato and sending Rojas to the front was forced by lack of legs instead of a tactical choice.
We'll see if Moreno sneaks another win at Fleche while everyone is marking his team leader :p
 

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