High Carb vs Low Carb-High Protein Diet

[sp00ky]

Hi all
Just been reading the latest research on the findings on high-protein / low-carb diet being more beneficial for athletes due to slightly increased weight loss and reduced muscle loss (as a % of weight loss).

I need to drop ~5kg so this sounds good to me. Anyone got any comments on moving from fairly high carb intake to low-carb/high-protein diet and any diet links that support these findings?

One thing that worries me is the potential lack of energy for day to day functioning. I'd propose to use carbs and carb supps on rides.

Cheers for any advice
Ciao

 

[Tapeworm]

Ohhh a big silver robot with flailing arms is shouting, "Danger Wil Robinson, danger!" over this one.

Lots of diets will make you loose weight but this does not mean they are good for you. In short there are no short cuts, no easy ways to loose the weight that won't have a detrimental effect on your health later on.

If you need to loose weight it would be best to reduce all facets of your intake, not just one over the other. Do you know exactly how much you are ingesting now? If not, start tracking everything that passes your lips. Then start to make changes.

If cycling is your overall goal and the weight loss is just to help you become a better cyclist then I would strongly advise against this kind of diet. Maybe even up your carb ratio. More carbs may mean more energy is going in but it does mean that you perform longer at a higher intensity. This will yield a far greater weight loss than piddling along for hours on end at granny pace. And it will make you a better cyclist to boot.

 

[tired_racer]

Extremes

Something you really need to define is how many calories you take in on any given day. Next you need to define what are the macronutrient (carbs, protien, fat) makeup is of those calories. Everytime someone says low-carb now people get this **** eyed idea that they know what low carb really is.

Weight loss is about calories in and calories out. How your body reacts depends on many different factors. Insulin sensitivity, types of activites, job, recovery etc. It is very simple to lose weight but many people often confuse simple with easy.

Establish a base line of how many calories you consume in a week. After that subtract 10 to 20 percent of that total over the next few weeks and see how you feel. If you are diligent and honest you will lose the weight and keep it off.

For most people the high/low carb scheme is a bunch of bunk. Everything works for a period of time and then people return to thier traditional habits.

 

[arrhythmia rules]

Couple of points on this.
Cyclingnews article on glycogen training makes interesting reading: http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness.php?id=fitness/2009/glycogen_training

However folk have completly missed the point of the question. In many fitness circles the opinion is that a balanced diet consists if I remember correctly of a calorie intake of 30% from protein with 30% from fat and 40% carbohydrate (edited). The view is based on reasoned logic and would be considered to apply to endurance sport. It would also be the basis of a balanced weight loss plan. People training on this regimen generally find weight loss is fairly easily achieved while still making very good fitness and performance gains. For instance my son has lost some 8 or 9 kg while putting on enough muscle for his strength and general fitness to have improved dramatically over 8 to 10 months. Probably equates to 12 to 14kg fat loss since he has trained to increase strength and overall fitness not muscle mass. His sport is judo.

The question raised is does anyone have a considered reasoned opinion or have research based reasons to support or reject this view of a balanced diet for a high calorie endurance sport like cycling? Has anyone consistently tried it?

 

[elapid]

I too am interested in the answer to this question. I have been struggling with losing 10 kg. I received a nutritional analysis from Carmichael Training Systems which basically said drop your intake by about 2%. I've not only done that, but also increased my exercise load (an additional 2000 km over the previous year with many more interval workouts). Still nada. A body building friend gave me his weight loss diet, which is essentially a high protein diet. Although I agree that weight loss is basically about calories in and calories out, the distribution of those calories also determines how calories are burned and stored. This is where high protein diets can be advantageous for weight loss, particularly combined with an anaerobic sport for sustained calorie expenditure beyond the actual exercise session (such as weights). When asking the nutritionalist about this diet, I was told that I would bonk and not be able to get through longer/harder rides. As cycling is an endurance sport, we basically need carbs. However, as I cycle for pure enjoyment and the occasional race, how likely am I to bonk, how important is a high carb diet when my aims for performance are modest at best, and what will be the real effect (other than documented weight loss effects) of a high protein diet on my performance on the bike?

 

[arrhythmia rules]

Just to follow up.
Short chat with my son over his regime. Initially lack of carbs - readily available sugars I guess - left him feeling tired and lethargic. Once the body adjusted he had more energy and weight loss came steadily so long as he stuck to the regime. He did weigh and check everything and has moved to carb intake being increasingly from veg and fruit. As for it being a fad and going back. Maybe but his eating habits have changed dramatically particularly since he tries to eat the carb as veg and fruit. He prepares his lunch carefully the night before, doing all the cooking etc and eats very well thank you. It has also effected the family. We now all eat more veg for example and another son who has a hard physical job has started eating more protein and veg and feeling better for it. One other change is from having three hens - before there were always eggs for everyone. Now we have to get them before my planned eating son eats them all.

In terms of cycling when on such a diet. You will build glycogen stores normally during recovery for use during exercise. You will need to fuel during longer exercise (though the reference cited in my previous post gives fuel for thought on this) and eat enough to refuel post exercise. We know this should contain both protein and carbs - so consider taking more of your daily carbs post exercise to aid recovery. Check how much the research advises for post exercise recovery then plan the rest of the days eating around that. i suspect recovery is a crucial concept in this. Initially you will need to weigh food just to know how much you are eating, how it balances. I suspect you can eat as much green veg as you want since its carb value is generally low! Trying to loose weight to fast risks loosing muscle whatever you eat.

There is also a view that has grown from the 40% 30% 30% argument which argues for body typing. This is that there are 3 general body types which each benefit from a different overall balance in the diet with the 40-30 -30 being only one type.

If it appeals to you give it a go. Looking at diet in this way will almost certainly improve your diet and will certainly improve your understanding of food. Then let us know how it progresses - when you feel tired from the change, how long that lasts, performance and weight changes etc..

Having watched my son through it I am certainly moving that way as I can see lots of benefits just in eating more healthily.

 

[arrhythmia rules]

Couple of links my son has found useful:
http://journal.crossfit.com/2004/05/zone-meal-plans-crossfit-journ.tpl
and the free pdf download from that page:

Crossfit has a load of stuff on nutrition.

and a blog:
http://robbwolf.com/

 

[arrhythmia rules]

OK so I started reading and it might be useful to Elapid:
The zone diet apparently best represents this balanced diet approach and its 30% protein, 30% fat, 40% carbs sourced calories.
Using figures from a study on diets and weight loss in the February 26, 2009, issue of the New England Journal of Medicine (reviewed on the Zone diet):
http://www.zonediet.com/tabid/130/itemid/1137/Does-new-study-show-that-all-diets-are-the-same.aspx

showed
1. Most people did not maintain their diet but drifted towards the mean ie high protein or low fat were not maintained. These did not loose weight on their diet.
2. Those on a high protein so relatively low carb diet who maintained their protein to give 25% of their calorie intake continued to loose weight.
3. Those on a calorie controlled low fat carbohydrate diet who "drifted" to eating more fat put on significant weight.
Interestingly this is where most cyclists are: low fat, high carb. The high carb I understand raises insulin levels so that once fat is introduced it is quickly passed into the cell by the higher insulin level. Perhaps this explains why Elapid above has maintained his weight and not lost as it appears he should have done.

The reduced carb diet - with calories sourced from protein - keeps insulin levels down facilitating weight loss.

Regarding feer of bonking on a longer ride. Just try it, carry a "spare" sugary bar in case. Your body will store glycogen normally so you should have enough for the first hour or so. Have a balanced meal before going out. During the first hour start to eat. On a day long ride use a balance of protein, carbs and fat earlier on with the reserve of carbs for later. If riding hard you will not replace the calories used in any case. Need to research how the insulin functions.

Thinking this through has just sorted one of my myths. Myth: you need a good ie high carb meal before going out. No. You need your glycogen stores replenished - which is done from what you ate yesterday. You will have enough for an hour stored - most UK cyclists will have ridden 25 mile time trials early morning with only a very light snack, probably cycled there as well. I used to - perhaps that's why I was rubbish. Your body stores for that. To keep going then you need a series of balanced meals, snacks. On a long ride its lots of snacks. We are all aware of carbohydrate loading which is fine for a special event but not for every day or even every week.

 

[tifosa]

For most people the high/low carb scheme is a bunch of bunk. Everything works for a period of time and then people return to thier traditional habits.

True that. You have to find what works for you, not what works for the other guy, AND BE CONSISTENT.

 

[Tapeworm]

A couple of links from the Australian Institute of Sport re: the Zone diets and energy requirements of road cyclists etc etc. Lots more of interesting stuff on the site.

The Zone Diet
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/special_diets2/the_zone_diet

Protein Intake
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/basics2/protein_-_how_much

Carbohydrate Intake
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/basics2/carbohydrate__how_much

General Overview of Road Cycling
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/sports/road_cycling

 

[elapid]

Thanks to both Arrhythmia Rules (really?!) and Tapeworm (another method for weight loss?). Both replies were interesting and informative. The AIS pages provide very good back ground information and advice. The role of carbohydrates, insulin and fat storage also make sense. I now have a plan (less food with slightly higher protein intake and changed source of carbohydrates, and increased miles) - I'll let you know if it works or not. Thanks again for your help.

 

[BroDeal]

I usually eat a diet with a very high percentage of carbs but I did try a high protein diet a while back. I used the typical protein shakes and such. On that diet I managed to drop my weight below the lowest level it had been in several years. So maybe all these body builders are on to something.

 

[elapid]

How did you perform on the bike while eating the high protein diet?

 

[BroDeal]

How did you perform on the bike while eating the high protein diet?

Like crap. But I only used the high protein diet for about six weeks. I was already in good shape and I was trying to minimize my weight for a non-cycling ultra-endurance race with a lot of climbing (on foot).

In general I would not recommend it.

 

[St. Elia]

I think that there have been some good points raised here and I have been focusing more on protein for the last few years but wouldn?t say that I use a high protein low carb diet but just that when I snack I tend to eat things like nuts and what not.

The point that has been missed here is that of periodization, I have used a very low carb week to lose weight and returned to a moderate carb diet. I used the cycle core diet and it works for me but for that week my performance is really crap for longer duration stuff (and is not recommended). I lost about 3 kg the last time I did the diet and have kept it off and am still losing weight at a much slower rate. It is suggested to do this diet in an eight week cycle and the idea is to stimulate your body to try to get it to use fat as energy more efficiently. I do believe that the days of high carb diets are gone in favor of a slightly more balanced diet with more complex carbs and protein.

Anyways it has worked for me and for sure I have never felt so good about my diet.

 

[Richard]

Good diet article

There is a good article in the May issue of Bicycling that might be helpful.

 

[lostintime]

How about just eating what you like? Minus junk food.

Do you realize that the preferred diet of a racing cyclist as of the 60's and 70's was meat, milk, fruit and vegetables? They ate meat sandwiches on the road, ate fresh or dried fruit, or even jam sandwiches. Grains were there for balance.

Today, the public is splattered with so much information it's no wonder we all don't starve from indecision. Everyone is out to sell their "method". Yet, no one knows anything more than anyone else.

From experience, those cyclists from the 60's were spot on. Too many carbs and I'm spaced out. Too much meat I feel like a rock. Too little meat I feel weak. Too little carbs I feel lifeless.

A little bit of all food(real food) .... is good..... a lot of a few foods is not.

Believe it , or not.

 

[elapid]

The Bicycling magazine article is very good and basically reinforces what lostintime is saying. The particular thing I liked about the Bicycling magazine article is the conversion from fat-burning to sugar-burning metabolism with high carbohydrate diets, which explains why weight loss is more difficult for people who have converted their metabolism. The KISS theory - keep it simple stupid and eat your veggies and fruit!

 

[Vegan Dave]

Thinking this through has just sorted one of my myths. Myth: you need a good ie high carb meal before going out. No. You need your glycogen stores replenished - which is done from what you ate yesterday. You will have enough for an hour stored - most UK cyclists will have ridden 25 mile time trials early morning with only a very light snack, probably cycled there as well. I used to - perhaps that's why I was rubbish. Your body stores for that. To keep going then you need a series of balanced meals, snacks. On a long ride its lots of snacks. We are all aware of carbohydrate loading which is fine for a special event but not for every day or even every week.

If you're eating 40% carbs, chances are you won't have enough stored carbs, unless you're over-eating.

If you're training hard, overnight your body will utilize much of the stored carbs from the day in recovery. If you're training hard, chances are you will not have very much stored carbs in the morning. Again, especially not on a 40:30:30 diet.

Cyclists do not need 30% fat. Carmichael says we should be in the 70:15:15 range. That really seems to make the most sense for endurance athletes.

And yes, weight gain is almost always due to over-consumption of calories (eating more than burned). Sure, protein has an 'energetic' effect: it takes more energy to digest and absorb, but the outcome of this is that you're using more energy and stressing your body unnecessarily. Just eat less, and eat better.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Some reading here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2007/oct/28/healthandwellbeing.features1

I would recommend "lower" carb diet for weight loss and certainly performance improvement.

You won't catch many pro cyclists eating pasta these days.

 

[lostintime]

Some reading here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2007/oct/28/healthandwellbeing.features1

I would recommend "lower" carb diet for weight loss and certainly performance improvement.

You won't catch many pro cyclists eating pasta these days.

That has got to be the most long-winded article that said nothing much I've ever read!

Pro cyclists eat plenty of pasta.

http://www.boston.com/ae/food/articles/2006/07/19/the_food_that_keeps_the_wheels_spinning/
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080712011828AAKBe4J

This culture is f'd up when it comes to weight. . . . and almost everything else come to think of it. It isn't pasta or other whole complex carbohydrate foods that messes people up..... it's all the junk foods and drinks. It's all the stress. Modern life is he!!.

 

[Vegan Dave]

Wow...i want my 5mins back...what a waste of time that article was.

There are certainly a number of factors that can affect weight gain/loss (which is what this article is about), one that i find particularly interesting is how the micro-flora in our guts can affect absorption..some of us get more calories from our food than others, depending on the efficiency of the bacteria in our intestines..

Regardless, carbs are absolutely necessary for long and intense aerobic efforts...anyone who's ever been foolish to try a low-carb diet like Atkin's can attest to the utter failure in performance after a short period of time...

The article really concludes nothing..there is a lot of evidence relating to calories in vs. calories out. It's over-simplified, but the basics are clear and effective. On a personal level, when i increase calories (esp. from protein) the fat around my waist increases. I cut down on food, and it drops.

And as far as good carbs vs. bad carbs, i agree that processed carbs (white sugar, white rice, white flour) can be troublesome.

Blaming fruit and other whole-food carbs is asinine. Raw foodies are among the leanest i ever encounter (often lean to a fault, pretty much gaunt) but some of these people are eating like 30 bananas a day..they would be prime candidate fatty boom booms, but aren't. Riddle me that, Batman.

 

[levigor]

Recently I also wanted to loose some wait and due to this I started a low carb diet. It was actually a good idea to loose some weight. Due to this I would recommend following such a diet. I actually had no problems during the diet and after I have finished it I felt a lot better and besides this lost some pounds.

 

[derosaboy]

calories in calories out?

A few good sources with scientifically backed information: proteinpower.com has some great information and lots of good links. The book associated with that web-site is Protein Power by Dr. Michael Eades and it explains in easy to understand, medically based research the science behind the advice. In it he debunks the myth of "calories in/calories out". Another great book about diet and weight loss is Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes. Probably the most heavily researched book I've seen regarding the "conventional wisdom" surrounding our modern diet.
As far as personal experience goes; I recently lost 25 lbs by reducing my carbs to 200 calories per day. Initially you feel worn out as your body learns how to access stored fat for fuel. I now have better stamina and haven't bonked like I used to (I've been an avid roadie for over 30 years). Good luck.

 

[daviel]

+1. Low carb is working for me.