Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

[blackcat]

thanks Tshame for the contributions

<thumbsup>

 

[JA.Tri]

Record parameters?

To set a World Record I would prefer to see standardization on conditions:

Temp < = 25C
Pressure >= 1 Bar

Events not meeting above conditions could be asterisked with notation "atmospheric conditions assisted".

Rationale providing a semblance of standard conditions.

In the alternative use a algorithm (a la Alex Simmons musing).

Without the capacity for the math...my gut is that a high power athlete gains an increased advantage with lower wind resistance (at altitude)....as compared to a lower power & lighter athlete (with a lower Cd).

 

[JA.Tri]

Coverage of RD's hour

JIC SBS (Australia) are broadcasting live (and streaming):


"SBS will broadcast the Hour Record challenge live on SBS2 from 2350 AEDT and online at Cycling Central."

In UK streaming advised to be available:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...watch-rohan-dennis-hour-record-attempt-156292

 

[TShame]

2/25 Thomas Dekker

UCI confirms Dutchman's (Thomas Dekker) attempt scheduled for February 25 in Aguascalientes, Mexico
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/thomas-dekker-take-hour-record-mexico-month-156225#wRPhUBYRwcxo0Eqt.99

Even if he can only do 51.5 at altitude that should add 2 kilometers.

PS I think my numbers for Jack B's attempt are off by 10 watts across the board. So, subtract 10 from estimated wattage, which is still huge. I'll bet a 4k pursuit feels like a walk in the park now.

There will never be a different record per height and weight. but there may be an asterisk for fastest sea level record. Fastest is still the main prize. What you describe above is more like a prize for highest wattage or even watts per kilo. Maybe a cash prize from Computrainer or Kinetic would be cool. I would love to see who could maintain 50kph on the Kinetic. It is one tough machine! Probably near the equivalent to Eddy's bike.

 

[TShame]

Chart from wolfgang-menn.de of estimated gain with altitude.

 

[mektronic]

Chart from wolfgang-menn.de of estimated gain with altitude.

If the hour record was anaerobic, maybe

 

[JA.Tri]

My thoughts were based on principle analogous to 100m sprint in athletics. Any time with >2m/s tailwind is deemed wind assisted and ineligible for WR.

 

[TShame]

First, yes this is exactly the advantage to cycling at altitude. (For most people, speeds over 50kph are anaerobic.) This chart is for trained athletes, not weekend recreational riders.

Second, There is no tailwind. It's indoor velodromes. Tailwinds are offset by headwinds on outdoor velodromes.('cause it's a circle) Only on road time trials can there be a continual tailwind. Riding on an outdoor velodrome in a strong wind is like a heavy interval workout. Besides, wood is faster than concrete. The pollution in Mexico city is enough to ruin your health. Cali is a covered outdoor velodrome with wood at a mid-level altitude. The disadvantages offset the altitude advantages.

Dekker has the right idea. But, it's a bear at altitude.

 

[avanti]

Watching Denis' attempt live on the UCI channel. Dennis is on schedule and has 42 minutes to go.

I'm surprised the crowd seems somewhat passive. I watched a successful hour record attempt years ago and the crowd participation was awesome with their yelling and banging on the rail.

Update: He did it 52.491 m. The crowd got motivated in the last 10 minutes.

 

[arthurvandelay]

Magnificent effort

Got to see the last ten minutes or so. I must say that it was incredible. To be that far ahead was amazing. He really is very talented, and showed great form. It is a treat to see a world record set live on my little laptop many time zones away. He didn't look to worse for wear, but I am sure that it will set in tomorrow and for some time to come.

 

[JA.Tri]

First, yes this is exactly the advantage to cycling at altitude. (For most people, speeds over 50kph are anaerobic.) This chart is for trained athletes, not weekend recreational riders.

Second, There is no tailwind. It's indoor velodromes. Tailwinds are offset by headwinds on outdoor velodromes.('cause it's a circle) Only on road time trials can there be a continual tailwind. Riding on an outdoor velodrome in a strong wind is like a heavy interval workout. Besides, wood is faster than concrete. The pollution in Mexico city is enough to ruin your health. Cali is a covered outdoor velodrome with wood at a mid-level altitude. The disadvantages offset the altitude advantages.

Dekker has the right idea. But, it's a bear at altitude.

The tailwind analogy was simply reference to variation in "effective" wind resistance.

 

[TShame]

here is my calculated wattage for Jack B's attempt.

Avg watts around 415-420

However, first ten kilometers avg 464 (with first 7k at 485 at 54 kph.)
An amazing 11:12 10k compared to Indurain's 11:20 (at 500 for 53kph - big man and not as aero in his position)

The only ones capable of this power for an entire hour are Wiggins and Martin

Rohan opened up with his first 7k at about 450, then upped it to about 460.
Overall, probably right around 445-450.

I do belive Wiggins and Martin can push 480 to achieve 54 kph. But, if Dekker can do 51.5 at sea level, altitude should push him close to 53 to 53.5.

 

[Captain Serious]

Ha. I forgot all about this hideousness.

 

[TShame]

Rohan's pacing

Interesting start:

12K at 52.491

26.5 at 52.97 (total 43.44K at 52.823)

14K at 51.64 (total 52.491)

 

[blackcat]

like to see Sparticus gett the souplesse and form down over 18 months and put a 56 number or higher out there.

come on, a full *** Sparticus or Wiggo will put something cray cray out there like a 56 or 57.

 

[TShame]

only at altitude, and Wiggins has said he doesn't plan on an altitude attempt.

 

[Bumeington]

Rohan opened up with his first 7k at about 450, then upped it to about 460.
Overall, probably right around 445-450.

I do belive Wiggins and Martin can push 480 to achieve 54 kph. But, if Dekker can do 51.5 at sea level, altitude should push him close to 53 to 53.5.

Don't know where you are getting these numbers but Rohan said he was aiming for 400W http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/news/57958/An-hour-of-solitude:-Rohan-Dennis-on-
Bobridge said he was aiming for around 380W to beat the 51.8 record (and 385W in the aussie nationals tt) http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/01/jack-bobridge-qa-before-his-hour-record-attempt/

 

[TShame]

I'm not sure how I am wrong. So, Jens Voigt did 410-412 and went 51.15K but Rohan only managed 400 and went 52.49? There are lots of riders who can do 400 watts. That sounds incredibly low, or are they much smaller than average?
Boardman was pretty small. His record took only 440 watts compared to Big Mig's whopping 500 to do 53K. But their watts per kilogram was almost identical.

I would love to see them post the full data. If it only takes 400 watts, I may take a crack at it.

 

[twothirds]

Rohan had custom, non-commercially available parts on his bike. Brandl had non-commercially available parts on his bike. Jens had custom parts as well. Bobridge should be the record holder because his bike is the only one that complied with the current rules. When is the UCI going to start enforcing the rules for commercial availability? When will they clamp down on UKSI, FES, all this custom, one-off bull? If the sponsors want a brand pure bike then it's easy enough to convert a TT frame to fixed by swapping out the axle on the rear wheel. Can all be done with off the shelf parts.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I'm not sure how I am wrong. So, Jens Voigt did 410-412 and went 51.15K but Rohan only managed 400 and went 52.49? There are lots of riders who can do 400 watts. That sounds incredibly low, or are they much smaller than average?
Boardman was pretty small. His record took only 440 watts compared to Big Mig's whopping 500 to do 53K. But their watts per kilogram was almost identical.

I would love to see them post the full data. If it only takes 400 watts, I may take a crack at it.

Aside from riding good lines, hour record distance is mostly a function of W/m^2 and air density, not W/kg. Dennis is far more aero than Voigt.

To go at such speeds, you need to be both powerful and slippery, and have favourable environmental conditions.

 

[Bumeington]

I'm not sure how I am wrong. So, Jens Voigt did 410-412 and went 51.15K but Rohan only managed 400 and went 52.49? There are lots of riders who can do 400 watts. That sounds incredibly low, or are they much smaller than average?
Boardman was pretty small. His record took only 440 watts compared to Big Mig's whopping 500 to do 53K. But their watts per kilogram was almost identical.

I would love to see them post the full data. If it only takes 400 watts, I may take a crack at it.

Pinot is doing 5.7W/kg for an hour (http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=1603405), so that means not many 70kg riders can be doing 400W for an hour.

Note that 30 minutes is a different story (6.1W/kg for Pinot)

 

[TShame]

Don't know anything about 'Pinot'. I don't see any source listed or anything that relates to hour discussion. Are you saying he did this for an hour on the track? What was his speed? He finished 3' 12 down at the Tour's last TT. I don't know his wattage, but that was a very hilly course. In the 2013 Tour he finished the stage 11 time trial in 48th place. Can't see how he relates here though I'm sure you have some reason in mind.

Everyone doing the hour has almost always had their position refined in a wind tunnel, so there is no one person who is so aerodynamically gifted as to ride 2 or 3 kph faster with even less power (or less watts per kilogram). Some equipment may be slightly faster (10 watts or so). Indurain was the exception as his power fell greatly if he tried an extreme low position, so let's discount his effort for now as well as any Obree positions and focus on current position.

I have seen wattage records for a number of riders including all of the SKY riders and 400 can be done by many top pros. (Lots of riders, for example, were clearly faster than Jens Voigt) The track is a different beast as your wattage must be constant and there is no 'rest' or coast phase for the entire ride. There are no slight ups and downs as even the flattest roads have. Wattage for hilly time trials must be discounted as they don't transfer to flat riding wattage.

There is no way Bobridge was doing 54 plus kph on 385 watts. The records exist, they just haven't been published. I do realize I am just estimating wattage based on averages, as I have already mentioned.

See analytical cycling for more information.

 

[TShame]

On Wiggins:http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/fitness/training/bradley-wigginss-tour-de-france-training-40924

Wiggins won the 2011 National 10-mile title he said his average power output was 476 watts, which because 10s are ridden at slightly above threshold meant his threshold then would have been around 460 watts. This tallies with what Sutton told me in 2009 when he put Wiggins?s threshold at between 440 and 460. Wiggins weighed around 70 kilograms going into the 2011 Tour, which gave a watts per kilo of 6.57.
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/fitn...-de-france-training-40924#SVhxhemRuMZXs7OM.99

 

[Bumeington]

Don't know anything about 'Pinot'. I don't see any source listed or anything that relates to hour discussion. Are you saying he did this for an hour on the track? What was his speed? He finished 3' 12 down at the Tour's last TT. I don't know his wattage, but that was a very hilly course. In the 2013 Tour he finished the stage 11 time trial in 48th place. Can't see how he relates here though I'm sure you have some reason in mind.

Everyone doing the hour has almost always had their position refined in a wind tunnel, so there is no one person who is so aerodynamically gifted as to ride 2 or 3 kph faster with even less power (or less watts per kilogram). Some equipment may be slightly faster (10 watts or so). Indurain was the exception as his power fell greatly if he tried an extreme low position, so let's discount his effort for now as well as any Obree positions and focus on current position.

I have seen wattage records for a number of riders including all of the SKY riders and 400 can be done by many top pros. (Lots of riders, for example, were clearly faster than Jens Voigt) The track is a different beast as your wattage must be constant and there is no 'rest' or coast phase for the entire ride. There are no slight ups and downs as even the flattest roads have. Wattage for hilly time trials must be discounted as they don't transfer to flat riding wattage.

There is no way Bobridge was doing 54 plus kph on 385 watts. The records exist, they just haven't been published. I do realize I am just estimating wattage based on averages, as I have already mentioned.

See analytical cycling for more information.

Don't take the below to be aggressive, obviously you can have fun estimating power numbers if you like, just I would estimate them all a bit lower!

But you are taking into account what Voigt says about his power but not what Dennis and Bobridge say?

The only numbers out there that line up with your estimates are Wiggo's, who from 2009-12 was using osymmetric (3-6% overestimate) and as a very tall rider will have a higher cdA than the likes of Dennis and Bobridge.

https://twitter.com/daniellloyd1/status/333242333317447681
This is after the 2013 Giro TT (1 hour 10 minutes), how can Dowsett win with 375W is every top pro is doing over 400?

 

[TShame]

I'll have to recalculate. Most riders are about 70 kilo, while others like Voigt are 80 kilos.

Voigt 410/80 = 5.125 w/k

70 kilo rider > 359

Rohan 400/70? = 5.7 w/k

The record will have to be 6.0 - 6.25 w/k to really be up with the great rides.

Sorry, about my enthusiasm over wattage. At least I put aside my ego.